Lead rope training

[grey]

The only objection I have to chains is that some are better constructed than others (strength-wise) and, also, they have a tendency not to release fast enough for my tastes.

And the release is the reward.

And the reward is what does the real training, not the discipline.

[jen judkins]

I agree with Grey. The chain is only really good at negative reinforcement, which will work only to a certain extent. If you want your horse to consider you as leader, you must be able to provide both negative and positive feedback. Its sometimes subtle, but it is the difference between a horse you can ‘manage’ and one that can do anything you ask.

BTW, positive reinforcement is different for different species. Dogs like a pat on the head, people a pat on the back….horses like quiet…an absence of pressure. So don’t feel you need to speak to your horse or touch him to provide positive reinforcement. Jennifer.

[TimB]

Thanks again all. Here are some responses to questions/comments…

re: the difference between creating a conditioned response and fostering a relationship with the horse where he is looking to me for guidance… The way I am approaching that is this: I am trying to work with the chain mostly to prevent the horse – a negative reinforcement – from turning away from certain stimuli (i.e. the pigs and the pig area), and in doing so turning me, which I can only correct after the fact by yanking on the lead line when I don’t have the chain in place. I am also, occasionally, using the chain to get him to move according to my instructions (i.e. if he is resisting forward motion, in which case I use it as a ‘last resort’ and combined with other ‘tools,’ such as getting him to walk in a circle). I am using our lead line time to try to develop his focus on me, to look to me for instructions and I’m thinking of the chain as a part of this attempt, one that fits in to discourage some behaviors as well as encourage others. His response has been, I think, good. I am already able to use the chain with less pressure and less frequently; however, I am a bit concerned about the aforementioned distinction (conditioned response vs guidance) and want to get to a point where the chain is not necessary… Does that sound like a decent approach to people, one that will develop a leadership relationship rather than a conditioned response?

re: my and the horses’ background. I am a new teamster, of a little more than a year. In that past year, I’ve used horses (3 different teams) on spring and spike toothed harrows, walking and riding plows, manure spreaders, mowers, rakes and wagons, as well as doing some skidding. I think I have a good sensitivity to the animals, but I am very aware of my “green” status (as for me staying calm and relaxed, I believe that I’ve done a good job with that. I am being reflexive with my training, watching both how the team is acting, as well as myself. I am working on keeping my demeanor steady). I am also fortunate to be working with three other experienced teamsters at Essex Farm in Essex, NY. The horses I now own are 4 yr old Percheron geldings, which I purchased from a farmer in VT, Jim Carpenter; he buys horses, trains and works them, then sells them. He purchased my team (in April 2009) from an Amish man he knows in PA. The geldings were (supposedly) used on a manure spreader and corn picker, and Jim has used them mostly to haul wood (split wood by sleigh).

re: fear vs new situation – I agree with Donn’s comment that the team is, at least in part, dealing with a new situation issue (not simply fear alone). I visited them and worked them on the VT farm a number of times (both alone and with my more experienced teamster co-workers) and they drove well and showed none of the responses that I am now seeing. I brought them to Essex a little over a week ago. So, they are now dealing with many new things (i.e. the pigs, the butchering area, flapping metal on a roof, etc.). And I appreciate what you said about the blending of fear and assertive behaviors – it makes a lot of sense.

Also, thanks Jen and grey for the comments re: positive reinforcement by pressure release.

And, again, thanks so much for everyone’s continued helpful comments. I really appreciate them.

[jen judkins]

Tim, I admire your humility and ethics as a student. Horse are very forgiving, particularly to those with an open heart and mind. You will be just fine. Look forward to hearing of your successes with your new team!

[Carl Russell]

TimB;16445 wrote:

… I am trying to work with the chain mostly to prevent the horse – a negative reinforcement – from turning away from certain stimuli (i.e. the pigs and the pig area), and in doing so turning me, which I can only correct after the fact by yanking on the lead line when I don’t have the chain in place. …… I am already able to use the chain with less pressure and less frequently; however, I am a bit concerned about the aforementioned distinction (conditioned response vs guidance) and want to get to a point where the chain is not necessary… Does that sound like a decent approach to people, one that will develop a leadership relationship rather than a conditioned response?…

Yes Tim, I also second what Jennifer said. You obviously have a sensitivity to your endeavor which in my mind is primary. You will rely heavily on that. More so than on any tricks, or shaved distinction we can make about terminology, or personal approaches.

That said, remember that the chain can only be used to correct, and it sounds like you have a good appreciation for that. As far as positive reinforcement, try to watch for those times when he does follow in a relaxed manner, and reward him, not by turning to codify him(not that you do, just as an example), but by intentionally releasing any control you may have on him, or the situation, and allow him to continue to follow you by free choice. Of course watch closely that he doesn’t revert, but take those opportunities to show him that you value his relaxed acceptance of your leadership.

Keep up the good work, Carl

[Plowboy]

It may just be the pigs in general. We have a 16yr old mare that we bought as a yearling a full sister to our oldest mare. We don’t raise pigs but do do wagon rides every year where there are some. She always snorts and cranks her head around when passing the hog pen. Nothing dangerous but in the 10 yrs she has been going there still does it. Other than that she is perfect in every way when out in public. Maybe if your horse has to deal with them daily he will get over it. Pigs have a distinct odor and horses are very sensitive to smell as well as the sounds they make which may well be unfamiliar to him at this point. At least with the chain he can’t bully you or get away. Keep going as you are and probably he will get better as time goes on. Good Luck!

[mitchmaine]

every once in a while, working in the woods, not often, my horses would get a whiff of moose. they’d start to act up, and i wouldn’t have a clue what was wrong, and try and make them mind. there isn’t a chain or a tree big enough to hold a horse when he actually sees his moose. best plan is to leave at your own pace, if possible. there’s a switch that goes off somewhere between their nose and brain that says “leave”. being a good teamster means knowing when that time is coming (their eyes and ears), and changing the enviornment by leaving with the horses to the safe place. if you want your horses to trust you totally, be trustworthy and don’t put them in places they feel threaatened. you can’t demand that kind of faith, you have to earn it slowly.

[Anonymous]

I agree with Plowboy. Sounds to me like he’s affraid of the pigs. In time he should get familiar with the sounds and smells. Throughout reading this thread I suspected it wasn’t the barnyard, but something in or near the barnyard. Take your time and he’ll come around.

[Anonymous]

How about an update on your gelding.

[TimB]

Update: Both geldings are doing well. I would say there’s been progress, but slowly. The one in particular will still get tense and not want to proceed in certain regions (particularly near where our pigs are), but he does eventually go forward after being worked on (whether it is walking in circles, working on getting him to lower his head or hooking the lead-chain over his nose). He is also not trying to turn away as much and, in general, is easier to walk around on the lead. I think the same is true (that there has been slow but positive progress) for walking them in from or out to pasture when they are together: they are better, but I still have work to do on walking them together versus singly.

We’ve also had a couple of dry windows and some dry fields on the farm, so I’ve gotten to disc harrow with them. As far as I know, they had not worked on plowed ground before, but they did well. They were tentative to get into and among the furrows at first, but they went and, after that, they pulled well, turned well and worked well. It was really exciting to have two good work days with them.

Some of my next challenges are: 1) continuing to work on our lead line and other basic training as the season gets busy; and, 2) figuring out a good nutritional supplement for them – I think they are a bit underweight, and still growing, so I’d like to figure out an affordable and effective supplement to their largely grass, with some grain, diet.

Any suggestions/recommendations regarding any of the above are, as always, appreciated.

[Anonymous]

You can’t beat go pasture for conditioning. I’m sure some will disagree with me, but corn is the best to put on weight. Plus it’s cheep right now. Make sure you bring the amount up SLOW so you don’t founder them.

[Carl Russell]

TimB;17107 wrote:

…..The one in particular will still get tense and not want to proceed in certain regions (particularly near where our pigs are), but he does eventually go forward after being worked on (whether it is walking in circles, working on getting him to lower his head or hooking the lead-chain over his nose)…….

Tim, when he does go ahead with you what is his demeanor like? Are you having to deal with this resistance during a time when you are intent on passing, or is it during training exercises?

I ask because my experience has been that horses can quickly catch on to how you respond to their behavior. If he figures that he can lead you into getting distracted from walking past the pigs…. you end up fussing with him, walking in circles etc….then he has found a way for him to assert his own initiative over you.

I wonder if he eventually walks by with relative calm, or is he still making you cajole him. This is where I think it is important to break away from an “agenda”. If he can predict what you are going to expect from him, then he can find ways to interfere with your intent, and take over your agenda.

I find it really important to let yourself go completely, and be prepared to change on the fly. This will mean finding completely “free” time, but if you can see those instances when he begins to tense, preparing for what he has determined will happen, then change course.

This is an aside but the analogy is perhaps a little easier to understand. When you train a horse to pick up their feet, you can’t expect them to hold it up for very long. In fact most horses will want their foot back reasonably quickly. If you let them pull it away, then they will learn that they can, or are allowed to. However, if you figure out how long they are willing to cooperate, then release the foot before that, then they will begin to trust you, and the length of time you can hold the foot can be increased.

So even though it seems really important to get that horse to go past the pigs in a relaxed manner, continuing to give him the opportunity to distract you while you are leading him, is only reinforcing the undesirable behavior. Divert the horse before he actually begins anticipating the place. Practice leading him for long periods of time in a relaxed state. That is what you want, and keeping him in that frame of mind is not only what you want, but it will be a reward to him. He will begin to understand that you are a good leader because you are keeping him in a comfortable mindset, AND he will begin to respect you because you are finding ways to distract him from interrupting what he thinks you want him to do.

Sometimes it may seem counter-intuitive to avoid the place where the problem is. We are so task oriented that we focus on where the problem is in order to fix it, but in some ways it works a lot better to focus on where the problem isn’t. But to do that requires a lack of commitment to the specific task, but an overall commitment to finding the solution whatever it might be.

I understand that many people have these experiences with pigs, some have them with cattle, some with railroad tracks, bridges, etc., but the reality is that the problem is not with the situation, but with the working relationship. The horse has every right to be alert, or maybe even nervous, but they need to learn to overcome that and to focus on the leadership of the teamster. We can’t hand them a contract that spells that out, so we have to find ways to explain it in their terms.

Carl

[jac]

Carl you really should write a book on this.. you’ve a great way of explaining things in simple foremat.. using the picking up the foot example, I used a similar technique on my 3yr old filly.. She was at the stage of being driven with her mum in the hitchcart and every now and then would stop for no aparant reason.. probly my own fault if I perhaps lost contact.. anyway what I did was rather than upset them by trying to keep them going I anticipated her move and I purposefully said “woah”.. made her think it was my idea.. now she steps out ok.. seemed to work for her..
John

[mitchmaine]

carl, i bought a pair of colts a few years back and the young one wouldn’t lead for beans. he’d go two with the other, but not alone. you could move him some by his halter but not if you got back on the line. so i turned them both out to graze one day and snapped a 6′ leadline on him. he’d take a step every so often, pin himself, free himself, pin himself, and so on. every so often, i’d go in and pick up the line and ask him to back which he could, turn a circle maybe, then drop it and go. i did that about three times in four hours and after that he would lead anywhere. but there weren’t any pigs around. it was just him and that line and he got over it. he would also stand for hours in harness with that leadline hooked and dropped on the ground. i didn’t expect it to work so well, and i’m not sure it would work for all, but there it is.
i think what you said about leading the horse to safe spots, and building up his courage, makes lots of sense. maybe taking him closer every once in a while. one day he’d never notice those pigs.

[TimB]

Carl – He is getting tense when we are walking in the barnyard during training. When he does walk by the pig area he is still tense, breathing heavily with those occasional sharp exhales, but, after a bit they diminish (not completely gone, he isn’t totally relaxed) and he follows. I usually wait until he has calmed down some and then, after a bit, lead him away. Sometimes I repeat the process completely, sometimes I walk him near but not as close, sometimes, I don’t go back at all. I assume your comments still apply to this situation – they make a lot of sense – but do you think, based on what you’re hearing, that he is “taking over my agenda?”

I appreciate what you said about establishing a trusting relationship by anticipating his reactions and leading him in places that he feels more relaxed in as part of the training. I’ll put that into practice. In addition to that training, how would you work on desensitizing him to the pigs?

[Author]

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