Logging Chains

[Scott G]

@Does’ Leap 13446 wrote:

I looked at the grab at N Tool. What is the circle on the end of the chain for? This grab only has 3′ of chain – a little tight for attaching it to the cart. Do you attach another chain with a grab hook which you then hook to your cart? It seems like the advantage to the grab is not having to snake your chain around logs (something I struggled with most of yesterday). True? What are the disadvantages? Do they come undone? Damage the log? Onerous to hammer off at the landing?

Enough questions?

Thanks.

George

George,

The short chain with ring can be used either as a choker for very small diameter logs to make a train or to throw a hitch around something that you are going to be pulling with. Some folks prefer ring chokers to hooks; never used them but I can see a lot of reasons why I wouldn’t want to. For small pole type timber you could make a log train with the way that one is set up but I would rather cut the chain down by 1/3 and put another grab on it to use as a log train.

They pop out pretty easy, just use the back side of your felling axe or a skip and knock them out. That is the way they are designed. I have, however, heard of busting the point of a grab off in a log. Send that to the mill and that my be the last log they ever buy from you…

Personally, I would only use them if I was building a train for coming off a hill. Otherwise I would use skidding tongs. I am starting to play around with tongs more, primarily for short skids in small pole timber.

For getting your chain under the log use a fid. The old electric fence “impaler” rod posts work well for that. Just cut off 1 1/2 – 2′ put it through the end of the chain and bend the end of the rod. Once hitched, the rod just trails along behind.

[Howie]

My father in law was a teamster for CPL. They used mostly grabs, It was no sin to come in at the end of the day with a broken grab. But if you did not have the broken part, you no longer had a job.:eek:

[Gabe Ayers]

Taylor,

The ones David Miller was making at Forest manufacturing were the plasma cut ones I mentioned in my post. I have a couple hanging in the barn now that are beat to pieces and basically crumbled after some regular use. We reported this experience to David as he was kind enough to donate some of his grabs to us a few years back and I am not sure if he still is doing this after we reported our results.

I haven’t gone to NH and probably won’t, but plan to tell the other fellows about them this week when they deliver some walnut logs we have had on order for a couple of weeks.

George,

When we fell our timber we always lay out a Loggers Helper, which is a piece of round wood laid where the tree will be fell or under the log while it is still off the ground so when we buck the log to a graded length it is still off the ground enough to slip the choker under without excavating most of the time. We also roll the log onto the choker when it is flat to the ground and we can manage to roll it with the peavy or cant hook we carry on the arch. That little detail when felling saves much work and frustration. Digging under a log in frozen ground is hard, that’s an obvious statement I guess. One always seems to find a limb, root or rock in the way and it can be a hassle even with a needle on the end as Scott describes. I even cut my hand once pushing a chain under when I hit a broadhead bowhunters arrow, years ago, as hard as that is to believe. In the summer when we are ahead with our felling and logs have lain overnight, I look under the logs before poking around just to make sure none or our native pit vipers have harbored there in a hunting pose.

So the point is this work is not easy even with all the stuff we come up with to make it easier. It also is more dangerous than can be imagined and one will find that out as the work goes on over a long period of time. So just keep working at it with whatever system works for you.

We have often wanted to include a segment in our videos about the various methods of attaching the log to the arch, sounds like that would be good information to share.

We try to never drive a grab into a potential veneer log, the buyers are definitely against that idea, give the cost of hitting a piece of metal would produce when slicing. I am not sure, but most modern saw mills have a metal detector just in front of the
debarker, so it would probably catch any metal before it got to the head rig. Oh by the way that potential veneer log is about one in every 2-300… not many, so don’t let anyone try to impress you with what top logs are bringing boys, because we just don’t have that many top logs, especially when practicing improvement restorative style selection harvesting . Always figure your income based on average per m. That is what a truckload is…averaged, despite being bought as individuals.

Sometimes I get silly questions like:

What kind of timber to you like to cut?

Answer: Veneer on the roadside….

doesn’t exist, not such thing, the forest is a mixed condition of dominant plants and species and in fact most veneer log candidates as standing timber are also the most productive trees still growing and making money for the landowner and the logger, so if you have any hope for the future, let them grow.

Good thread guys.

Salute,

[Does’ Leap]

Thanks for the replies. There is saying that goes something like: “The more you learn, the more you realize you don’t know.” The good info here brings up more questions.
@Scott G 13459 wrote:

The short chain with ring can be used either as a choker for very small diameter logs to make a train or to throw a hitch around something that you are going to be pulling with. Some folks prefer ring chokers to hooks; never used them but I can see a lot of reasons why I wouldn’t want to. For small pole type timber you could make a log train with the way that one is set up but I would rather cut the chain down by 1/3 and put another grab on it to use as a log train.

Scott, what is a log chain and how and when do you use it?

Jason, I have 1 chain with a needle on it and try to set up support wood under the tree for easy cutting and chaining. Sometimes it works well, sometimes I miss it and struggle.

Here’s another question I had in a previous thread that got lost in the shuffle: Any tricks for cutting off a log that is partially embedded in dirt (despite an effort to lay wood down beforehand!)? I cut out a 22′ hemlock log that scaled around 360 bf. The section that I was trying to divide (ended up being 2 logs) was too big to role with a peavy and too big to move to another location to cut (it was down in a gully). I ended up cutting through it as best I could, but hit dirt and dulled my saw. What has happened to me in this case in the past is the above scenario or I don’t cut all the through and end up having some bark tear (forget the proper name for this). Any approaches here?

Finally, what is the difference between a peavy and a cant hook (I have a peavy)? Advantages of one over another?

George

[Carl Russell]

Does’ Leap;13476 wrote:

…. I ended up cutting through it as best I could, but hit dirt and dulled my saw. …

OMG George, you dulled your saw??;)

Just kidding. That’s why they make files. I can’t tell you how many times I have done that. In the best scenario, we could do all sorts of things to prevent this, but sometimes it can’t be helped.

One trick I use is to drive a wedge in the top of the cut as I work downward. This won’t prevent you from hitting dirt, but it can give a little more room to work with.

As far as peavey vs. cant hook.

Peavey has a point, often longer handle, and a larger hook. They are made for moving logs.

Cant hook has a blunt end with a toothed edge, shorter handles (typically), and a smaller hook. They are made for turning cants (square edged) on a sawmill.

I use the peavey point far too often to every consider using a cant hook in the woods. A peavey is as valuable as a lever as it is as a roller.

An aside. I like to put a slight bend, or crook in the end of the peavey point. This can give advantage when using the tool as a lever. It will get better purchase in tree bark, dirt, ice, etc. I find that I typically roll the peavey so that the hook is away from my leg as I drive it under a log, so I put the bend in the point to match that.

Carl

[Iron Rose]

A tool that comes in handy for rolling big logs is the use of a swamp hook. Simple to use and light enough to carry on the hame. I usually used one when cutting conifers to roll over so I could limb the other side.

Dan

[Anonymous]

Early on in this post Jason said none of the BWM use tongs because it doesn’t get the log close enough to the team. I’m assuming you’re talking about ground skidding? I’d like to hear more people weigh in on this.

I preferred using tongs on the ground because I thought they got as close to the evener and gave me a little bit of lift. Tongs eliminate alot of that fishing around under logs. You can place your tongs on the lower third of the log and get some lift, whereas the point of the chain going to the evener is always going to be on top of the log. There are tricks with the way you place the tongs that can help you easily roll a log at the start. You can do that with a chain too, just takes a bit longer to set up usually.

And I see people using a chain on the ground leave it too long all the time. “Hook it short!’, we used to say. I’d shorten up the tugs on large logs, too, to the point that if there wasn’t a load on, the evener would be hitting their heels going back to the woods. Meant you had to monkey with the heel chains more, but the horses needed the rest anyway…

My tongs had a ring, instead of a swivel hook. So the tongs were attached to a large grab hook on a swivel plate on the evener. That might make the distance slightly shorter than tongs with a swivel hook?

Actually those little tongs belonged to an older guy who mentored me quite a bit. Vernon made sure I got that set of tongs back to him when I sold my horses, they were set up just right to haul medium sized logs. Vernon said that when the tongs were all the way open, the points should still be pointing directly across at one another, instead of opened up and pointing back away from the pivot point. I had larger tongs for big logs, but they weren’t at the perfect angles or shape, and would slip some if you didn’t get them set well.

Tongs are slick, but before I had the log cart, they could give you trouble on downhill slopes after the skid trail got well-used in the winter. Then I skidded with chains, to act as a brake on the log coming downhill. Ideally, use a log cart in that situation. I suppose that my midwestern “hills’ are more like bumps to people out west and in Appalachia. Maybe thats why tongs aren’t widely used there?

As far as when I did use chains, I used variable lengths (8′, 12′) of 5/16″ and had a grab hook on one end, and a slip hook on the other. I think I even had a 1/4″ 8′ chain for small stuff (actually fine for lots of stuff) Easy to throw multiple chains on a log cart. Gives you flexibility. But I always used the slip hook to attach to the log, grab hook was on the other end to connect with other chains if needed.

I never used choker type hooks. Advantages/disadvantages of those versus standard slip hooks?

-Luke

[Does’ Leap]

@Carl Russell 13478 wrote:

OMG George, you dulled your saw??;)

An aside. I like to put a slight bend, or crook in the end of the peavey point. This can give advantage when using the tool as a lever. It will get better purchase in tree bark, dirt, ice, etc. I find that I typically roll the peavey so that the hook is away from my leg as I drive it under a log, so I put the bend in the point to match that.

Carl

I know, dulling the saw – goes with the territory:eek:. I am somewhat fanatical about keeping my saw sharp. If it’s the least bit dull, I find myself taking the time to return to my shop, putting the saw in a vice, and getting it right rather than cutting with an even slightly dull saw. I probably burn through chains a bit quicker but I like the feeling of the saw pulling me into the wood with perfectly shaped chips a flying!

Carl, when you say put a slight bend at the end of the peavy point, I assume you mean the hook part and not the part on the end of the shaft? Can you elaborate with maybe a picture? Peavy work is an art in itself (one I haven’t mastered). Maybe another thread in the making?

George

George

[TaylorJohnson]

I most of the time hit my saw with a file ,,, well almost every tank and rackers as needed for the wood I am cutting. Tongs are interesting to me because I don’t think the angle has to be off much to make them a hassle. I have one old pair i got at an antique shop that work well on medium logs
i use chains in the woods and tongs on the landing sorting big wood. I would like to see a display of a bunch of tongs ( old ones ) and talk to the guys that use them . I have one small pair that I filed the ends hard to change angle and it did help , some times just filing the points flat on the inside can help a bit. I know guys that have a good pair swear by them and seem to guard that pair . I know one old guy that my dad worked with that has a set that he wont even let any one see any more , said his wife knows were they are at and that is the only one that will. He says they will be put on his stone when he dies. My one cousin tried to get him just do show him them once and he just would not , he would feed you every night of the week if you wanted but he will not even show you those tongs LOL. Taylor Johnson

[Carl Russell]

Does’ Leap;13489 wrote:

I know, dulling the saw – goes with the territory:eek:. I am somewhat fanatical about keeping my saw sharp. If it’s the least bit dull, I find myself taking the time to return to my shop, putting the saw in a vice, and getting it right rather than cutting with an even slightly dull saw. I probably burn through chains a bit quicker but I like the feeling of the saw pulling me into the wood with perfectly shaped chips a flying!

Carl, when you say put a slight bend at the end of the peavy point, I assume you mean the hook part and not the part on the end of the shaft? Can you elaborate with maybe a picture? Peavy work is an art in itself (one I haven’t mastered). Maybe another thread in the making?

George

George

George, I am the same way with the saw. A cutting tool is made to be sharp, even when attached to a powerful motor. I have become quite good at sharpening in the woods, on a log, or a stump. Sometimes I will carry extra pre-sharpened chains with me.

I mean the point, on the end of the peavey. The point that you drive under the log to use as a lever. Think of a carpenters crowbar, with the crook at the end. You know how much more handy that is than just a straight bar.

The point I put on it looks like a crooked finger, with the first knuckle bent.

I will try to get a picture sometime and start another thread. Sharpening the hook is another feature. It should be sharpened so that when the peavey is pushed along a log point and open hook against the bark, then the hook will cut. Also hard to describe…more later.

Carl

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