logging Questions

[Joshua Kingsley]

I have a few questions that may sound a bit off the wall but right now I am making do with a much smaller team than I am used to in the woods and now I have some questions…

When should I consider an agressive shoe?

my team is currently barefoot because they have hard feet and one freeks out when I go to set some shoes. they are also dominate in the pasture and I worry about them kicking out with cleats on.

When should you consider the switch form a wheeled cart to skis?

I am working on a new log arch in stead of ground skidding.

Is there a good reference as to how heavy a pole is needed on a single bunk scoot?

I tried some 1 1/2 pipe with some not so great results in the past and was wondering if 2X2 box with 3/16 wall would be a beter choice. I only have a pair of steel skis that are set at 3’6″ wide and are 5’6 long that I could use right off..

when do you know that you need a bigger team??? or should consider other options.

thanks all Joshua

[TaylorJohnson]

Joshua,
I would get an aggressive shoe as soon as there is snow and ice to make them loose traction and slip. If one freaks out put him in a stock and tie his foot up, if he keeps freaking out tell him to knock it off and go have some coffee until he is done :). And if they are kickers don’t use cleats on them just use the drill tec it is not as bad as a cleat to be kicked with.
As far as getting a bigger team goes it all depends on how the team you have is working , are they able to get the job done, do they seem over worked or are they getting less productive as the week goes on looking run down , what is the run of wood on your average job ? if they can handle most of them fine and you have the occasional job or part of a job that seems to go a little tough just figure if it pays to buy a new team or work though but if it is the opposite of this than consider a bigger team or harder pulling team . There are some advantages to a small team like less feed, easier to haul, getting around well , easy to feed … wait I already said that :). My Dad , Grandpa, and Uncles use a lot of small horses and mules in the woods and they put out more wood than I do most of the time. I had a Fjord that I use for awhile and he could skid like a machine , he was not big but I made a living with him.
As far as the other things you asked .. well I could not give you a good answer because I really do not know . I am better at tearing things up than building them . I have made a few scoots and what not but it was always from what ever I had laying around the house and they were not that good at all. Most of them got tore in half in the woods one I still have and I wore the runners off of it one break up but even that one was nothing to speak of .
How big is your team ? Taylor Johnson

[Does’ Leap]

Joshua:

My horses are all barefoot and I use my main team regularly in the woods all winter. There are very seldom conditions when I feel like they can’t pull safely. If it is icey, I don’t go out. Since I don’t make my living logging, it is no big deal if I miss a few days. My horses do some sliding, but they generally do great.

As far as a smaller horse, I was working my new 1200 lb (my guess) draft/paint in the woods with my full size draft and there were relatively few situations I felt limited by her size (pulling down hung up hemlock was one of them). I imagine 2 smaller, well conditioned, woods-broke horses could do a respectable amount of work.

George

PS the pole on my scoot is a standard ash pole about 6″ square at its base.

[Rick Alger]

Hi Josh,

Hope your winter is going well. If you are working alone and still have the medical issues we talked about, I suggest you stay away from loading logs on bunks. Go with the arch. Make loop trails. Keep them open after every snowfall. Use a rope with a pulley high on a tree if need be to get the logs from the stump to the trail. Pick up logs here and there as you head out.

On a packed snow trail with an arch you can haul at least twice what you can ground skid on dirt, probably more.

Stay safe.

[Joshua Kingsley]

Thanks all,
my current team is a pair of Haflingers that are about 850 to 900 pounds each and are about 14 hands, I am finding that they can handle a bunch of wood and still want to go but I am wondering if I am over working as they seem like they don’t know what quit is. I had them on some fair sized stuff 150 BF hard wood on saturday and they are still acting like they want to go go go…. The more I work them the harder they will pull, on the flip side I feel that they are getting more work than a team this size should be doing. The gelding will work up to a sweat in short order but he tends to be a “hotter” horse. Breathing rates seem good, so it could just be me when it comes to thinking I need a bigger team. My dad says this team will drop dead on me before they will give up.

Joshua

[lancek]

sounds too me if they are willing to keep pulling and all vital signs are normal you have nothing to worry about ! They will let you know by balking our hanging there head and breathing heavy if they are being over worked!

[Joshua Kingsley]

Well they were ready to get going today with out a problem with the work the gelding is settling in and the team is relaxing with the work. I messed up and put a skid trail through a wet hole… WOOPS! Guess I need to rethink how I am going to get those bass wood logs out :rolleyes: I am thinking it will involve lots of chain while I stay on the hard skid road. The horses can still go where we started to break through but it is hard on them. On a good day lately we are getting out around 2 or 3 cord of mixed hard wood for fire wood. That was needed to be cut in order to clear some trails. It looks like this new snow might cause a few issues but we will get through it.
joshua

[TaylorJohnson]

Man Joshua I would love to see that team work , it sounds like you hit the jack pot with them. I think that is a good amount of wood to be getting out. Can you post some pics of them . Thanks in advance ,,, a video would be great. I know I have thought about having a smaller team of horses ( I was thinking Fjords ) to work with and also ride. I have seen some good Halflingers but have never owned any but I would love to work a good pair sometime. Taylor Johnson

[Joshua Kingsley]

@TaylorJohnson 24375 wrote:

Man Joshua I would love to see that team work , it sounds like you hit the jack pot with them. I think that is a good amount of wood to be getting out. Can you post some pics of them . Thanks in advance ,,, a video would be great. I know I have thought about having a smaller team of horses ( I was thinking Fjords ) to work with and also ride. I have seen some good Halflingers but have never owned any but I would love to work a good pair sometime. Taylor Johnson

Taylor,
I’ll try to get some video and pics up of them in the near future. it has been a little cold for Cassie to come out with the kids and shoot video for me. The other day we were going to only to find that we left every camera including our cell phones at the house. They are a good team not matched for color as the gelding is a light chestnut and the mare is red but they will work that is for sure.
Joshua

[lancek]

Joshua, if you have any pine boughs around through them in the wet spot and you will be able to go through it without much trouble! Or you can also put small logs to fill it in and cover over with dirt a little more work but it last longer

[john plowden]

Joshua – As lancek says pine or fir boughs – layers with snow and pack, splash some water on and let it freeze over night – should be solid enough for a days worth of work – do the same at the end of the day and you’ll be able to keep going – if you can drag a grey birch or limby fir out on the last twitch so the road smooths and freezes for the next day –
Sounds like you’ve got a good team – mix up the loads during the day – go light and go often-
John

[Gabe Ayers]

Joshua-
Had to chime in here on your questions. In terms of the shoes, I would urge you to shoe them as soon as possible. I have had really good luck with Kirk 3/8 shoes with 4 Mustad ice studs (2 front and one on each heel). The studs are easy to put in with some basic metal tools. You sure don’t get as much traction as using sharp shod shoes, but they are easier on the horses and don’t put as much strain on the nails and nail holes. My guys get plenty enough traction. In general, I am in favor of having them shod even if they can manage without because they don’t have to work as hard to maintain traction, which is easier on the team in general. They don’t seem to work as hard, particularly to get big loads started on the arch and bobsled.

Skis vs wheels for me depends on conditions. I really like the arch when there is not deep snow to contend with. Like Rick suggested, the arch allows you to hook on to wood without having to role logs up on a sled. Also, you can get right to the stump with the arch which is harder with the sled. But, when the snow gets deep or when downhill sliding is a danger, a sled can’t be beat. The ease on the horses with large loads and the safety of bridle chains for the downhills are super around here. I have definitely found that having a second person in the woods to help with loading and unloading makes using the sled much easier and more efficient. Rolling the logs up on the bunk is a challenge for me at this point, but practice is helping with the process. Overall, I think I can get a bit more wood on the bob than on the arch, but with the arch you can pull stuff in much longer lengths which is easier in some cases. Good luck!

[Carl Russell]

Josh, I have found that shoeing for traction plays a big role in getting horses that are comfortable with the work. There is no doubt the animals can get around, even on icy conditions, but when having to work, they definitely react differently when they have non-slip footing. To that point, I know a lot of people who just use shoes like Brad describes to good advantage, but from my experience they do not come close to a broad toe caulk, like on pulling shoes.

I mention this because these smaller horses have to use much more muscle when moving heavy loads. They don’t have the lift, nor the body weight to use for ballast that larger animals do. This factor combined with barefoot traction could be the basis for the “Hotness” , and the “acting like they want to go go go..”. Finding ways for them to become comfortable with the task will go along way to calming them down.

As far as wheel vs runners, my answer would come down to distance of skid. I know some folks who have runners to go on their Pioneer carts, and I have been impressed by the functionality.

If you have a good scoot, they can often be used right along side the fallen log, and because they pull so easily, can be used quite well on short skids. There is a lot less involved in loading them vs a bobsled, and therefore led themselves to the light and often method quite well. I know with you back situation rolling and lifting logs is probably a last resort.

Without a lot of extra work, you can set up a loading area where, after you have skidded your logs to a bunk sled, you can use the team to roll them on.

Another factor in getting the animals to “settle in” to the work is to stop them often. Most of the time, horses have to work hardest when they start the load. If they can move along with it then they can start it. They need to practice starting it as many times as they can, before they will gain confidence. Having adequate footing in good traction shoes will go along way toward this end as well.

Carl

[TaylorJohnson]

I have wanted to rig up some skies for my arch just to see how it would do . I think it would be fine I just wonder how it would be on a brushy job. The shoes do give the horses more confidence in there job . If you run them with out shoes long enough they will start to tender foot around on hill and starting hard pulls. I figure why not take advantage of the slick ground and pull more material by giving my team/ horse an advantage of traction. I know it can be done with out shoes but all things being equal traction beats slipping . Taylor Johnson

[Mark Cowdrey]

I have had good luck with the Pioneer skiis on the forecart my arch is on. I just posted a picture of it under “Equipment” in the gallery. It does not pivot around as easily as wheels do on a hard surface and you have to watch for stumps and obstacles when turning tight. I find that with a 20 foot chain to reach back in the brush I can get most of what I want. It does draw quite alot easier, especially in snow more than 4 or 5 inches deep. Note the ducktails I added so I could back in snow over 6 or so inches deep.
Mark

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