Logs Delivered Markets Disappearing

[near horse]

conservation easements, that restrict future use of the land in order to reduce the local tax burden on the property to be limited to it’s actual use as a forest. We have written and contributed to the development of many conservation easements by offering wording to support and justify extraction from the forest, “for the health of the forest”. There are many states that have working conservation easements. The primary restriction of a conservation easement is that it can never be clear cut and there can’t be but some many houses on it – which restricts development.

How is timber land taxed in your state? In Idaho, you can put your timber property in “bare land” in which each year you pay only on the land value and then pay the tax burden from the timber value at harvest or you can choose to put your land in sort of pay as you go – each year being taxed on the accruing timber value. So, with a conservation easement, at what level does it limit your tax burden?

I agree w/ Rick. That Crooked River site looked awesome.:) Nice work.

[Rick Alger]

Jason,

Thanks for the explanation. Working on the conservation plan with landowners is ideal.

Unfortunately, I’m not a forester, so I can’t consult and sign off on “official” conservation plans. But I do plan to work on cultivating forester allies.

After mud season I’ll be taking a cut-and-skid contract from a timber company for commercial thinning of softwood logs on a wetlands site. The return will be low. but at least I can keep going, and I wont have to worry about markets and trucking.

Rick

[Jim Ostergard]

Not too much to add but here in the mid-coast area the pulp and log market are very slow. The Verso mill in Jay has stopped 3 or 4 paper machines and there mill in Bucksport (spruce & fir) is shutting down for a month. Jay is taking no hardwood pulp which will I believe drive down firewood prices in the short term. So they are contacting all contract holders and letting them know they will be taking only about 25% of the normal when the shut down ends. My trucker says 50 to 60 trucks line up at 4am when they are open only one or two days. Pine log buyers are going to a quota system.
We have kept busy (sort of) doing some lot clearing ( a new school building these last two weeks) where the ash is going to firewood (to be auctioned) and saw logs. The snow is wicked deep and another foot is falling as I write. It is a time when our approach and the niche of that approach will be the only thing that works.
Hang on all and keep up the good flow of information. It makes it work for all of us.
Jim

[Ronnie Tucker]

i heard from the sawmill this morning they cant sell any lumber or ties the ties might start again in 90 days so much for the month or so time off i had hoped for ronnie tucker tn logger

[perchhauler]

Its bad around here as well, however most of the mills I sell to are still in business… I’m stuck in paperwood, just finished a paperwood job, and heading back into a paperwood job in the same general area, about 50 miles from here, I just bought a camper, gonna stick it on my landing with my corral pannels… For a while at the beginning of this thing every landowner and their brother were selling, scared, broke, who knows, but now not only is timber hard to sell, prices down but also work is very hard to find.. Landowners are hanging on to their timber, very wise, unless they have big red oak that are visibly going bad at the butt, abd will only make firewood soon, because this does not look like its going to turn around any time soon… So I’m about to just get into firewood, the paperwood I sold brought $32. a ton at the mill, actually very good for here, but the trucking eats you up… Better off screwing with firewood, hey its fun as well:)! Hurtin but keepin my chin up, my geldings, my mare, and my rottie help me with that one for sure:).. Steve

[Carl Russell]

Bret, I don’t think it is missed, it just directly affects those of us who are making at least some of our living from selling forest products to an industry that is being affected by many things, including those that you have mentioned.

The point truly is that we are watching the destabilization of unintentional growth, and the undetermined affect of naive attempts to regulate that through, albeit ineffective, government policies.

I agree, and I think many others can see this too, that the only way to move forward is to re-energize the small processors, local markets, and true husbandry/stewardship (people working on the land and in the resource that they have personal interest in).

There has been a lot of hand-wringing over the last several decades about the un-sustainability of our modern culture, to which I have always said, “the best thing about our modern culture IS that it is unsustainable”.

Watch it crumble, and pick up the pieces.

Carl

[Robert MoonShadow]

Bret ~ I read your words, and from my understanding of them, it seems that you are doing the same thing from another point of the compass; polarizing & over-simplifying the issues. I live 70 miles from Lewiston, home of Potlatch’s (claimed) ‘largest pulpmill in the country/world’ –> when you get 20 miles away, you can smell the stink. I live in the heart of “logger country” –> and see the devestation of the “no-cut; let it burn” policies… I think both extremes are very wrong, and I do not believe the proproganda of either side of the issue. I think we can utilize the resources of this world in a sustainable manner, leaving the world fit & pleasant for our descendants, while enjoying all aspects of the countryside, without raping the planet. Gov’t regulation has it’s place… over-regulation doesn’t. How to have the one & not the other? Beats me. But I think it’ll have alot to do with the mindset of the general population – of which both extremes of many issues fight to capture. Whether it’s PETA or professional dog/cock fighters… Clear cut-everything-in sight & grow a monoculture treefarm loggers (and I’m not saying anyone here is that way) or zero-harvest-let-it-burn types… or tax-and-spend-and regulate-to-death Dems or don’t-tax-but-spend-a-deficit, no-regulations at all Reps… or any such polarized thought camp. I’m not trying to start a big argument here; I’m just speaking my own opinion – that of a middle ground on many issues – and hope that if any response at all, I can perhaps get people thinking about the fact that when we polarize issues & ourselves, nothing really gets done… ‘cept a whole bunch of bickering. I’m sure there’s some people out there that benefit from the general populace being divided like this, but I’m not one of them.
I hope all here truly have a good day… if not, let me know; I’ll let you borrow one of mine!

[near horse]

Hi,

I just got off the phone w/ a local friend who logs commercially in our neck of the woods and does what’s called “cut to length” harvesting – logs are cut to size before they are loaded on the trucks. It had some promise a few years back but the trucking guys wanted to go another route – tandem bunks that substantially increased the weight per load so it has fallen by the wayside. He is still able to get some contracts, primarily from state lands, that want the cut to length stuff. If I understood right, it was easier on the ground than skidders – but not as nice as horses:D. He won’t be back in the woods until June. It is pretty much a given that a lot of operations are going to go belly up in the next few months.

Anyway, he sort of branched out into stream reclamation stuff – said it was a good use for his equipment. Also, non-pulp timber is bringing about $120/MBF:eek:. There’s another guy that uses his self-loader equipment to haul and place boulders for people’s landscape projects. Wow. I guess you gotta pay for that equipment somehow.

AND – just to add insult to injury. Over half of the “property tax” in our region that goes to fund the school district, fire dept etc comes from timber ground that has dropped significantly in value. It hits from all sides.

[Plowboy]

Just hired a logger to work with me at my day job. Good man, hard working,lots of skills and a great personality. I know of at least 6 or 8 more looking for steady work right now. Many guys are cutting more firewood than sawlogs this year. Can’t blame the landowners for clamming up and not wanting to give their timber away. The mills that are still open are full of finished lumber they can’t sell and a yard full of logs. People are worried about keeping their job’s, houses and putting food on the table. Hard to justify new hardwood floors and fancy cabinetry. The carpenters aren’t far behind the loggers as far as throwing in the towel. The mortgage market is shot and new home building is stagnant. People aren’t doing any remodeling or repairs unless they absolutely have to. Hope things start to go the other way soon!

[Robert MoonShadow]

Bret ~ Thank you for your words. I now think we agree on some very basic issues – I didn’t before, based on your previous words here & in other postings. Nothing wrong with having strong beliefs (whether or not they’re the same as mine is really irrelevant), but extremism seems to lead to narrow-mindedness. Humble1 seemed of that nature… I truly hope I never allow myself to become so calloused as to become that disrespectful & disregardful of others’ opinions. It’s why I made a point of emphasizing that I was responding to your posting, based on what I understood your point to be – and I was trying to get you to clarify. Again, thank you for doing so.

[Gabe Ayers]

@Bret4207 6932 wrote:

I can’t comment on the current industry, but isn’t this what we’ve brought to ourselves? Not “us” here so much, but the populance of the USA? In our zeal for “clean air and water” we’ve gone too far to the left and forced many of the nasty papermills out of business through regualtion and tax. In our quest for “a better environemt” we’ve made logging a filthy word, complete with visual images of dead Spotted Owls and talking Redwoods and of course the “Death of the Rain Forest”. This is to say nothing of Gov’t intrusion and taxation and the simple fact the people don’t understand anything about where the wood for their toilet paper comes from. You have a population that has been sold on the “evil” of smokestack industry, a Gov’t that is sold on taxing any industry out of existence and a media that no longer even pretends to check facts on anything they report. Add all this in to the current economic issues (mostly the fault of Gov’t regualtion and lack of ethical oversight) and here we are. What else did you expect?

IMO the answer to many of our modern day problems isn’t a rush to progressive gov’t and “green” living, but a return to a common sense view on husbandry, conservation and sustainability. We have to get back, or ahead, to a day in which people understand that a natural resource can be exploited without guilt and that with proper stewardship that resource can be self-sustaining and regenerative. Not doing this will just lead to our ruin, further degradation of lands and waters in other places that still follow the “rape and pillage” path, and our eventual descent to third world status.

I may the village idiot, but I fail to see how anyoine else can miss all this.

Bret,

Not that I want to antagonize you to further comments, but nonetheless I simply can’t agree with much of this post. I am sure you will persist to have the final word as in the past of our exchanges, I simply can’t resist pointing out what very different views we have. We see it differently. These issues are not missed.

Commenting on the condition of the current industry is the point of the original post, and to share what we could do differently to survive economically, doing what we love to do. Most of the posters (on this issue – animal powered loggers) on here do have a relationship with the current industry and are – although a small portion – a part of it.

Educating the public (populace) as to the benefits of alternative methods is a goal of many here on this site and it certainly is one of my personal goals.

Paper mills are the primary source of Dioxin in our environment. It is cancer causing and not the only way to bleach pulp. If they can’t innovate and figure out cleaner ways of making paper, then they should be out of business…for the public’s sake, who only have the government to represent their interest and the interest of future generations.

Conventional logging is filthy. It is the primary source or “non source point pollution” in the form of sedimentation from road building and skid trail construction. It is a system that uses immense amounts of fossil fuel,
intense capitalization and in the end pits one logger against another with
no concern for the quality of the services.

The over production of conventional forestry practices probably plays more of a part in the current economic problems in this industry than government regulation or taxes.

There will eventually be a better understanding of the cost of damage to the ecosystems from this filthy logging. Conventional logging has earned the reputation it has…just remember that the next time you drive by a clear cut.
For a close up view, just take a walk through one of those harvesting sites.

I have never seen a picture of a dead spotted owl or heard a talking redwood, but I may not watch the same TV or media as you.

I do understand the concept of the canary in the coal mine and paying attention to the plight of lesser species may be the key to the dominate species survival. I’d bet we agree that humans are the dominate species on this planet.

Most people do know paper comes from trees, but most don’t know that around 70% of the material in land fills is recyclable paper products…

The smokestack industries are a primary cause of acid rain and certainly a contributor to pollution vented high enough that the folks right around the place don’t die rapidly. These old industries may have started before their impact was known, but that is no excuse today. The concept of the solution to pollution is dilution is expressed in this old industry and it should adapt or die. Of course just shipping the industries abroad for a higher profit margin for the elite few that gain from industries is a short term solution. But to blame all their/our woes on regulation and taxation is shallow, simplistic and politically charged.

There is no “rush” to progressive government, it has taken years… at least eight. “Green living” is a return to common sense. Many did expect changes but for very different reasons than you post.

In your final paragraph you use a word that just pushed me over the limit of tolerance of not responding to your comments.

“exploited without guilt”
websters – exploit – 1.to utilize, esp. for profit; turn to practical account; to exploit a business opportunity. (I agree with this definition, but the most understood and practiced use in our modern world is something else. I think that is what you meant, hopefully) – second definition – 2. to use selfishly for one’s own ends.

To do this – “exploited without guilt” – the primary goal and definition should be about stewardship or making a place better than you found it. That environmental ethic is the greatest aspect of human behavior that is not rewarded by the existing dominant systems…. which is what we are trying to do differently and change.

I do agree with the rest of your paragraph from there.

I suspect you will have plenty to say about this response.

One suggestion is that if you place your cursor under the words with red lines under them and right click it will give you options on spelling. I don’t know much about computers either and most of what I do, other people have taught me, I didn’t figure it out on my own.

You and I are probably more alike that different, but we do have clear differences.

I wish I could remove the signature sometimes, because this post in not from our organization, but me personally. Hard to separate it sometimes, but I do wear allot of hats.

Meanwhile we are enjoying a three day long gentle soaking rain in the Appalachians and spring seems more promising to those invested in making a living from the work in forests and fields. Spring is near.

[Robert MoonShadow]

Jason ~ Your words were very well spoken; you obviously spent time & effort to restrain some of your feelings, yet were concise & forceful… while still being polite & dignified. I just want to say that I think you are a prime example of how to communicate – and disagree – in good form.
Brett, however… you are not. You make overwhelmingly broad statements & put words in other people’s mouths, by saying such things as “You and I both know that the rain forest isn’t disappearing” –> really? Does Jason “know” that? Two things wrong with that statement: 1) Unless you’ve taken the time to talk with {and not at}, Jason on this subject, you can’t possibly know what he does and doesn’t know… 2) Do you really know this? Have you been to the rain forests? Even one, much less enough to know whether they are or aren’t disappearing? I’ve been to Costa Rica, Panama, and 2 countries in Africa (no longer known by the same names anymore). Twice to most, 4 times to Costa Rica. I know if it’s disappearing – not based on whatever “source” I choose to go to for ‘information’. I’m not going to do as you expect & contradict you… it’s pointless, and irrelevant. You want to know, go. It’s irrelevant here & now, because my point isn’t about the state of the “jungle”, but in you not only making that blanket statement, but then assuming that Jason knows & agrees with your suppostition… that’s not nice, man. I think you were very rude to him, also –> ‘has he ever dealt with OSHA’?? He runs a program that deals with teaching one of the most physically hazardous jobs in this country! You couldn’t think of perhaps a better way to phrase your sarcasm? I agree with some things you speak of in various threads, but man, you make it hard to even agree with you. Lighten up, will you please? I’m not trying to rag at you; I actually enjoy the different viewpoints you & Jason bring to a discussion; but the words & attitude… Jason, Carl, and several others can, and do, disagree with people but they manage to do so with dignity – for both themselves and their opposite in the discussion. I’m not that good at it. But I see the way they do it, and it motivates me to try. It’s not your stance, it’s your way of putting it forth, that’s abrasive. Maybe you didn’t realize that? But now you do. That’s why I spoke here… I’m not involved in this discussion, so perhaps you’ll see that I’m not invested in ‘winning’ the debate. Of course, this all is just my opinion… take it & quarter & you can get a cup of coffee at Sheryl’s cafe in white Bird = both are worth what you pay for it.

[near horse]

According to my forester friends there is a time and place for a clear cut. I’m as much in favor of sustainable growth as you are, but calling all conventional logging “filthy” is no more accurate than saying all horse logging is pollution free and uses best practices throughout the industry

Did your forester friends tell you the time and place for the clearcut? Using best management practices and assuming that there has been no devastating natural event in the stand (like fire or insect damage), the clear cuts are usually so small as to be more costly to the operation – in our area they refer to them as “postage stamp” clearcuts that are on the order of 1 – 2 acres. That’s all.

Yup, and I’m as much in favor of reducing, reusing and recycling as you are. Problem is that alot of the separated trash that’s supposed to be recycled ends up in land fills anyway. It’s not efficient at all and until that’s addressed it nothing more than a feel good money grab

There’s pretty solid data that most if not all of the major cash flow in recycling centers comes from the metal(s) – aluminum cans (and copper) are subsidizing the rest of the operation so calling paper recycling a money grab is unwarranted.

To keep the profit margin everyone tries to cut costs and the easiest place to do that is at the raw material end. There’s no way you can say with lower costs your profit margin would fall.

Sure thing. Just give away timber on public lands. It’s just the taxpayers we’re screwing. The Forest Circus did that for a long time. It seems that there are 3 options to increase profits: 1) Decrease production costs (you can hire less people – not good for the overall economy or local community) or get timber cheap, as you suggest; 2) Add value or high end your product (EX – saw logs or firewood vs pulp); 3) Increase the amount harvested per unit of time. This is a short term solution as it eventually floods the market and drives the price down which means you have to cut more and faster. #3 has been the prevailing model not just for logging but most of agriculture and natural resource industries. Increase production by covering more land faster using incredibly expensive equipment with fewer employees. What part of that sounds like it builds a sustainable community? Or a sustainable anything? These guys are running $600,000 feller-bunchers to harvest sawlogs at $120/MBF. Not sustainable. Laughable if people weren’t getting laid off.

regulations and taxes that make no sense

Like the DOT? For someone who is so opposed to government regulation, you sure made your living off of them if you worked for the DOT. I think there are certain things that they need to do but there are plenty that the DOT is just the type of agency you’re railing about every time you post.

incredible amount of your money is wasted paying for regulations and taxes that make no sense.

That’s funny. I feel like my tax dollars were wasted NOT regulating enough. How in the heck do you think we got into the current financial mess? Over regulation? Ask Bernie Madoff if over regulation helped him to screw people over for billions.

I might add check into what capitalism, socialism and communism are really about before you start throwing around the terms. For people that are concerned about their neighbors and communities rather then just themselves, socialism is preferable to capitalism. Who fought to get rights for workers (regular lunchbox toting, coffee drinking Joes)? Not capitalists. The United Workers Party – ask anyone who lived through the union battles in the 20’s and 30’s. And look at the nice little mess the coal industry manged down there in W. Virginia now.

We’re still being taxed for the Spanish American War Jason!

Wow. That is some interesting history there. Where in the world did you come up with that?

[Carl Russell]

We are all alike in that we all want to be understood, and similarly we are alike in our inability, sometimes, to understand others.

Just because we don’t understand someone, doesn’t mean they’re wrong.

Just because someone doesn’t agree with you, doesn’t mean your wrong, any more than if many agree with you means that you are right.

On this forum we need to care about how others feel about how we engage in discussion, and we need to be able to express our own beliefs as they pertain to our own choices, and not in terms of how other’s choices are wrong.

I think it is important that we have differing views, and that we take each other to task, both materially and in terms of how we present our arguments.

Quote:

I don’t care if you like it. I am who I am. No one forces you to read anything I write. I’ve spent the last 30 years watching what is happening and this is my opinion. One mans dignity is another mans pussy footing around.

Statements like this just aren’t going to fly here Bret. I’m going to give you some time off, to see if when you come back you can get back to “playing nice” (your words).

It is unfortunate that the views expressed by Bret have been so laced with distractive comments that we can’t have a constructive discussion because I feel like this is a discussion that needs to occur.

Hopefully we can resume, Carl

[Jim Ostergard]

Carl, I have to support your statements in your last. This was and is a good discussion thread. I am sorry to see Brett go in that he often had good things to add. However, I was uncomfortable with some of the tone, in the, “I’m right and you are an idiot if you believe otherwise,” passages. We are here in my mind to share as a community shares. There will; and aught to be, strong differences of opinion but it is the caring for the community that counts for me.

[Author]

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