Moving Heavy Loads With Horses

[mstacy]

@Carl Russell 6393 wrote:

Also I never let my horses stop on their own. This is why I watch their effort, so that I can stop them while they are still trying hard,
Carl

Carl,

I’m just starting out, but I intuitively believe that your point about never letting the animals stop on their own is absolutely crucial. I have two young Devon teams (sorry to be talking boves in the equine thread) that I watch very closely so that I can stop them if they start to falter.

I think this increases their confidence that I won’t ask for more than they can give and reinforces the “who’s in charge” issue. If they get accustomed to stopping on their own I think I’ll be pretty much done for.

I also stop them when they start taking a crap though they would gladly keep pulling. Seems like common courtesy to give them a moment to tend to their business. But then again maybe that’s the fabled “Devon intelligence” and they’re playing me for a chump. If so they can only play that game so many times in a session before running out of ammunition.

I have mistakenly hitched them to loads they couldn’t start. So far I’ve realized my error quickly enough every time to hitch them to something else rather than making multiple attemps and turning a small failure into a whopper. I consider it to be more of a failure in my judgement than in their strength or ability. As such I try to minimize the impact of my error on their confidence.

Matt

[Carl Russell]

I do keep my horses shod throughout the entire year, but I will work them barefoot, depending on how schedule works out sometimes.

The main thing that I would say about the resting thing, is that they should get used to being stopped before they need it. If you work them until they are so tired that they hesitate, or begin to look overlabored, then watch them, and you will see the signs to look for. The point is that you will not want to be looking for those signs, but learn to see how they progress toward that point where they are losing energy, then keep their effort at a level that they seem to be able to maintain.

Carl

[Gabe Ayers]

Geoff,
It is better to stop two steps to soon, than one step to late…err on the side of caution, it’s positive reinforcement.

Then the challenge is to build them up to the strongest equine athletes they can be. Build them mentally and physically.

There is a certain sensitivity of line contact that will tell you when an honest pair have gone far enough. When they subtly come off the bit – despite continued effort with movement against the resistance of the load – it can suggest their wondering it they have been far enough. When you want that little bit more, at that subtle instant – I would call on them, sometimes with a cluck, sometimes a kiss, sometimes voice.

It does come down to the teamster knowing the teams limits. Keep practicing, you will get it.

Any body that has ever really worked horses for any length of time has hung them on a load they couldn’t move. It is not the end of the earth. Just help them be more honest by letting them succeed on the next effort.

Horses remember where they are hooked to a very heavy load. Horses remember everything. Horses see about 80% more than most of us expect.

I would say that under expert hands it would take 6 -8 weeks of work to get a pair truly fit. From there it would be a refinement to get them stouter and know how to apply themselves with great efficiency. Amazing actually…

[Plowboy]

Many of these things are hard to put into words. For me it has become second nature to rest them before they are spent. I couldn’t tell you the signals but I have learned when they need a break. I’ve learned when I can get a little more from them and when I shouldn’t ask. I have tried to keep up with the big boys with a young team and got stuck with a big log. One of my mentors met me on the trail and took his saw off his cart and cut 4 ft off that log and said I think they’ve got it now. I started them off and they happily took that log to the landing. It was only firewood so cutting it down didn’t do any hurt. The horses never lost faith in themselves or me and my mentor never mentioned it again. He knew that I knew I should have never hooked them that heavy and it never came up again. Now for me so many things are done without conscious thought and become habit. Like training young horses many folks think I am somewhat of a barbarian because when they are old enough we harness them and go drive them. To outsiders we are skipping crucial steps because the early training goes unnoticed because it is habit to handle our animals daily and work on important steps gradually so even we don’t notice. When we hitch them up they are ready to learn and when they are mature enough and we need to move a big load we will call on them and they will give us all they have. Conditioning is very important when moving heavy loads. “Hard” horses will do it much easier than soft horses. Hard horses are less likely to become injured or sore. Whenever we really put demand on our teams they just came off fall plowing and were in shape. We are not loggers just farmers that like going to the woods. These discussions are good to make us think because I have such a hard time explaining to beginners all the steps. We raised all of the horses we have now and training is such a gradual process I don’t even think about every detail. We just go through our daily routine which creates some animals we are very proud of.

[Plowboy]

One more story to share. The same friend that had the little red crossbred team also had a herd of roan Belgians. He worked in the woods alot with his 4 favorites Teddy,Leroy,Tammy and Kelly. Most days at least two of the 4 went to work. Years ago at a work day late in the afternoon when the work was all done someone spotted a huge nubby old oak log out back. Many of the folks were weekenders and someone got a chain around the log. An informal horsepull ensued. Everyone struggled to pull that log the farthest with their teams. Our friend sauntered over to his trailer and came back with a singletree. Mouths dropped as he stripped the team lines out of his harness. Nobody had manged to pull that log more than a few feet. He took Tammy out and hitched her up to that singletree on that big log. “Tammy”, he said and she tightened up the traces to feel the load, “Here” and she walked right off with that old log like it was made of styrofoam. The truth is he would have never hitched her to it if he didn’t think she would really shine. He and Tammy were a team and she was hard as a rock but it still left alot of folks with their mouths open in disbelief. He just smiled and loaded his horses up and headed back home:)

[Carl Russell]

jenjudkins;6373 wrote:

…..I have gotten my brother interested in doing some logging this summer at my place. I think if I had someone to man the chainsaw, I could manage the skidding. We’ll see…

Hey Jen, if you guys want to bring Peanut up to visit K & B for a weekend this summer, I can give you all the wood you want to skid.

Carl

[jen judkins]

@Carl Russell 6936 wrote:

Hey Jen, if you guys want to bring Peanut up to visit K & B for a weekend this summer, I can give you all the wood you want to skid.

Carl

Sounds like fun! Lets plan on it! Thanks.

[ADKLogger]

Hey guys, I’ve got a question that fits right in with this conversation. My new horse Petey is a 5 yr old Percheron gelding. We log with him and he has come along great except for one thing. When we get to a hitch that is fairly large he has a tendency to want to bolt into it using his hind quarters for power, and all this does is make him dance around. How do I get him to put his front end into it and start using the muscle machine that makes up the front 1/3 of his body so he can get a heavier load moving in a much more controlled manor?

Thanks for all of your input this community has helped me immensely.

-Frank

[Carl Russell]

Frank,
Horses do not use their front end for power. All of the horse power comes from their hind end, transferred through the fulcrum at their hip. Although they do use their front feet to assist in forward motion, the 2/3 body weight in the front is actually ballast against the power in the hind end.

If your horse is throwing himself into heavy loads, he is not confident either with his ability to move it, or with your ability to guide him and manage his exertion (both of which are the same thing).

A horse that tries to run with a heavy load has probably gotten used to being asked to go too far, which tires him out, and may also be compounded by the reaction that when he tries to stop he is encouraged to keep going, which will cause anxiety, because he is not getting the release, or rest that he needs, and he has lost trust in the teamster, and is trying extra hard to do the work he knows he is being expected to do.

Try taking a few steps back in your expectation. I remember from another post that you may be under pressure from others in your team to have that horse perform at the highest possible level, and that may be working against you.

Not being there, I may be entirely off-base, but I have experienced this myself, and observed it with others.

Carl

[ADKLogger]

Thanks Carl, I have been mislead by another teamster that told me that all of the power is in the front. So when Petey crow hops, and lunges into the load this is good?

I do vary my loads by taking out branch hitches and varying where I stop to allow him to take a rest when we are taking a log hitch. How often should I push the size of the hitch and what should i look for in his behavior telling me that I have pushed him to far?

Just a side note, on our breaks I give him hay, should i also be giving him oats in addition to hay when we stop to take our lunch.

-Frank

[Donn Hewes]

I might be missing something but there is a difference between a horse that is lunging to tighten the traces and one that is “hopping” or using it’s hind end to move something heavy. It sounds to me from frank’s description that the horse is lunging before the trances are tight. If this is so, it takes practice with the lines to hold them a little until the tugs are tight and then release them to use their power. They can learn this but it takes a lot of concentration to repeat this process ever time they start a load. I don’t think it is an either or; I think Carl’s answer is right too. Keep the horse confident and calm. Let him work up to what he can do. Donn

[Carl Russell]

ADKLogger;6988 wrote:

Thanks Carl, I have been mislead by another teamster that told me that all of the power is in the front. So when Petey crow hops, and lunges into the load this is good?

I do vary my loads by taking out branch hitches and varying where I stop to allow him to take a rest when we are taking a log hitch. How often should I push the size of the hitch and what should i look for in his behavior telling me that I have pushed him to far?

Just a side note, on our breaks I give him hay, should i also be giving him oats in addition to hay when we stop to take our lunch.

-Frank

Frank, the crow hopping shows that he is trying very hard, but it can be hard to control a horse that is moving like that. He is not comfortable using his power to move the weight. All of the tricks Joel mentioned are good confidence builders. The horse should learn to start the load by gradually pushing harder into the collar. If you keep working him on loads that he has to exert himself like that, he will keep acting that way. It is important for your safety, and the comfort and dignity of the horse that you help him to learn to start the load and move at a walk, what Jason refers to as a “power walk”. Some times in the working cadence it is hard to remember to give the horse a chance to gain some confidence. Take the time now, and it will pay off ten fold.

Sounds like he’s telling you you’ve pushed him too far. Stop him every ten feet if you want, and let him take a breath or two. Don’t worry about him getting bored, you need to show him that you know what he wants, and get him to trust that you will give it to him when he works hard. Then start to push the limit. The problem is we tend to push the limit, and THEN try to figure out how far we should have gone, and by that time we have already created an impression with the horse, so that is what has to be undone.

I know those who have a hay bag tied to the tree in the woods, so every time the horse is idle he can eat. I have fed hay and grain to mine at lunch time, but mostly these days I just work them 5-6 hours, straight through, without unhitching or feeding. If I’m on a job or working longer days, I will stop for lunch, give them water and feed a flake of hay and 2 quarts of grain.

I hope Jason doesn’t mind my posting this photo here, but it shows clearly how the horses use their hind end for power, and how they use their front feet for ballast.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

The last post gave me a few more thoughts.

Although we often refer to it as “pulling” with horses, they actually are lifting. As you can see in the picture in the last post, the horses have lifted their front ends up under the weight of the load, and are lifting the front of the sled. The pulling, or forward action comes from the weight of their body in balance against the weight they are hitch to. This is why trace location and angle are so important to effectively moving weight with horses. If the angle of draft is too high then they can’t lift, and the load has leverage against the body weight. A horse that is crow hopping is throwing his weight forward to move the weight because he is either not confident, or does not know how to lift. This can become habitual if he is not asked to start the load often enough, having to go for long stretches working more at keeping the load moving then at lifting it. They can learn to lift with each step, especially if they are given enough opportunity.

This also leads to discussion of raising the hitch point for vehicles like logging carts. When the hitch point is raised, the power of the horse does turn from lift to push. This is why traditional hitch horses had such long legs so that the advantage of the wheel didn’t devalue the lifting power of the horse. There is significant advantage to logging carts because they can transfer direct weight onto the wheels, and reduce friction weight, but at a certain point the draft can be so high that the lifting power is lost. That is why the values that logging carts have in safety to the operator, the ability to carry tools, and the reduced impact on the ground are more important.

When ground skidding really big logs, they can roll so the chain is on top, effectively raising the draft to a point that compromises the horses power. Skidding pans, like Joel mentioned, or a go-devil, are good devices to keep the draft low giving the horse the lifting advantage.

When moving heavy loads nothing really beats a good old fashion sled. Whether it is a bobsled or a scoot the load is lifted high off the ground, but the draft is still very low (6″), and the friction is reduced to a couple of narrow wooden, or steel shod runners. Sleds take a bit more human energy and planning/ingenuity, but they are an excellent way to take full advantage of the horses ability, and inclination to lift.

Carl

[perchhauler]

I can relate to your last post Carl, thats why I like my homemade skid cart sooo much and have never bought an arch.. My cart sits high like most arch carts, so the draw bar is up high, but its not an arch because my point of draft where my evener pins on is below the team pole, down low where it should be, just as if they were ground skidding or hooked to a sled.. On my sled I pin the evener to the team pole because its low on she sled.. My cart works very nice, I just cant pull over big stumps, and logs ect… Steve

[Gabe Ayers]

Hard to believe that photograph is now almost four years old. The kid in the foreground is now over six foot tall and still playing with horses when not playing with a musical instrument.

As Carl points out a horse is not pulling anything but pushing into a collar that is bearing hames and tugs and singletree back to the load. When we talk to new folks about harness and working horses we tell them that they are not pulling but pushing against the resistance of the load. But as mentioned they are not just pushing but lifting per the angle of the collar and attached apparatus. This is often explained as being not just pushing but lifting and the terms are supported by the control on the right of every tractor seat being the “draft” control which means lift. So I think this may have been why work horses are called draft horses and that control called the draft. Or the connection seems obvious in terms anyway.

As we describe the harness to new students we try to think of it’s fitting as an imitation of the horses body itself. With the collar being a muscle the hames being bones and the tugs and straps being ligments, all added onto the animal to capture energy from movement without injury or excessive wear to the animal. There are much more subtle views and aspects to this concept, but some things have to be saved for the actual course information we provide….

On the movement of the horse question about hopping or moving both hind feet in unison there becomes a consideration of the rate of travel. I suspect the speed of AK’s horse is truly an expression of lack of confidence in being able to respond to a command and wanting to simply go faster from the insecurity of being able to move against the resistance. Of course the experience of the handler and signals transferred come into play.

After time working, horses know/learn that a load moving faster is lighter or easier to move than one moving slower. This complicates the insecurity issue. But there is a limit to the rate of travel that is experienced when the load is jerked forward so far and quickly that it actually has to be started a second time because it comes forward to quickly and actually stops before the team or horse can apply themselves to the effort in a continual motion.

This is where the skill of the teamster comes into play. Being able to get your animals to apply themselves with enough energy to start a dead weight without jerking it so far they have to start it twice is a skill. It may be accomplished through the contact command and release simultaneously method of starting. This clear multiple message contact allows the animal to know what you want and when sensitively applied through appropriate tension, may control the pace of the start. And then the challenge is to not ask them for to much for their ability, conditioning, size and of course heart or willingness to give all they have…and often more…

Most highly competitive pulling horses hop about three times and then power walk the load the remaining distance of a pull. But the point is that the good ones are not just rocketed out there on a load without any contact, guidance and confidence conveyed through the contact on the bit and lines.

Allowing a team to launch is not the best way to have sensitive control in the tight situations of working in the woods or even staying between the lines at a pulling contest or keeping your horses balanced and able to apply their strength to the resistance. There is a happy medium of allowing a little bump on a heavy load and then continuing a sensitive contact to promote confidence for continuing the effort against resistance.

Hope this helps. Keep working. There is no replacement for experience, keep working and always stop when things are going perfect….

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