Need advice.

[Rod]

Today I drove my team of Halflingers up to one of my outer fields. On the way I stopped at two different gates so as to open them and the horses stood quietly as they have been doing. I keep an eye on them and try to be near the reins when I do this type of thing but so far haven’t had any indication of them trying to run off till today. I stopped near a piece of equipment with the horses headed is the barn direction and got off the froecart to retrieve something. Next thing I knew off they went at a gallop all the way back to the barn where I caught up with them at a fence gate munching grass.

I backed them out and took them back to the same spot stopped and then retraced the Route they took , this time with me in control. I continued to work them hooking up the tedder and tedding some hay I had down. this entailed getting off the cart a few times for hookup and adjustments. No problems.

Question is now I don’t completely trust them what do I do to restrain them when I am alone and need to dismount the cart/vehicle to be sure the will not repeat this trick again?

[Carl Russell]

Rod, never lose that sense of not trusting them, now that you have it. They may be excellent horses, but it is not their job to be trustworthy. Their job is to be trusting. They obviously don’t realize that when you say whoa, you mean stand. You will have to condition them to know that even when they are stopped, you are still driving them, and they need to be paying attention to you, and waiting for you. It will involve a lot of what you were doing after the incident. Good luck, Carl

[ngcmcn]

Rod,

I was driving a single horse once, she was new to me, she took off, i got back up ran after her, and just as she was coming to a stop i recovered the reins, and said “whoa”, I don’t think she ever knew i wasn’t behind her, but she responded to my whoa. Never had another problem with her.

One of the things that works well for me is to park them in such a way that they’re “boxed in ” so to speak.Like in the opposite direction of the barn, or headed up to a tree line or fence or what have you. I also will do square pen work, my paddock, where i’ll work on standing. Do they step off before you ask them too when you work them?

Goodluck, always something too learn.

neal

[Neil Dimmock]

I guess I have trained to many teams. I never leave the lines. these type of run aways are just trainers, now they know some one is int there all the time and some day when they feel like it it will be a big one, to break there(maybe) habit break your first!!! take the lines with you, if you have to saw off your line pegs to help you break the habit so be it, but do it! it all fun until your team runs over some one kid! I cant say how many horse functions I have been to were some one is trying to show how good there team stands and leave the lines only to have some one inexperienced walk up and make a kissing sound thinking that’s how you say high to a horse and away they go, or at a thrashing down south they gave me a hard time because I tied my team at the machine, then the main pulley blew up and pieces went every where, my team was still there but there’s ran over a car and two tents. lucky no one was home eh!! some just cant drop the lines fast enuff like there to hot to hang on to or the weight 200LBS but there your brakes and steering, ya wouldn’t leave your car in drive and walk away! Please just hang on to them It might be your kids they get!!

[Rod]

Good thoughts , all of them. I will work on all those things. I need to lengthen my lines also so I can get farther away from the vehicle. My head gear came with pretty short ones.
What length do you folks use?

[Does’ Leap]

We had some 10′ nylon line extensions made that buckle onto our existing lines (Zimmerman’s Harness (717) 354-5667). They were under $20 and are very handy. I keep them on my forecart and buckle them on when needed. We use them frequently when unloading wood from a wagon so that two of us can unload wood and always have the lines either in hand or close by where we can grab them if the horses take a step.

George

[Rod]

I like that Idea. I have been reading about buckback lines (Steve Bower in A Teamsters View, good book mostly about lines BTW )not only for alignment problems but to help prevent runaways. Anybody want to comment.

[Neil Dimmock]

Buckback’s are very good at holding one in a team but wont work on keeping a team still, if the one with out goes so can the one with the buckback. I use them for training and retraining , all that get started here I use the buckback on and you can hold the most unruly runaway and it works super for reeducating a hard mouth horse and works super for driving big hitches. I probably have the most buckbacks hanging in my barn than anyone else. All the new trainees have one hanging on there harness for the first year and when I start them one things like mowers and such I’ll buckle it up and hook them to an older experienced horse, snap the buckback across to him and go, it holds the trainee back until the fear eases. most wrecks happen in the first two minutes. Any horse brought to me for a try out or evaluation were a buckback, had to many( broke to death)and (your kids can drive) horses blow up and try and go. I am not sure how many horse I have trained but 20 to 30 a year for the last 20 years and right now I have 18 teams all raised and trained by me which I use to train people to drive, farm with ,put in big hitches, parades, etc and not one runway! not one. It can happen but training and the proper tools and attitude help keep a perfect record!

[Carl Russell]

Rod,
When I tell my horses to stop, I don’t just expect that they stop moving their feet. I expect them to show me that they are not going to move. Any animal will stop, but it is the willingness to stand that you need to condition them to.

Neil’s advice to keep hold of the lines is good, and should be a good place to start. If you have to work on something that distracts you, then it would be good to park them, as the other Neal suggests, or take them back to the barn and get your stuff together first.

When I stop my horses, I release the light tension that I have on the bit while driving, BUT not until they show me what I am looking for. In other words, whoa is not just a button that I push to get the thing to stop. As I am preparing to stop, especially with horses that need the point reinforced, I make sure that they are paying attention to me, reaffirm my tension on the lines, say whoa, and as they begin to stop, I let off tension.

All the while I am assessing the body language. I only give complete release when they show me a comfortable stance. And I keep an eye on them, because if I see that comfortable stance breaking down, I will restart them before they start on their own.

Some days this means that as much as I want to get meaningful “work” done, I have to pick chores that lend themselves to this exercise.

I use this method of releasing pressure at whoa, so that they understand that when the lines are slack, they stand, especially since I have conditioned them to give me a “stand” behavior before I give them complete release. Before I leave them to open gates, or hitch logs, or pieces of equipment, I practice moving away and watching their behavior to make sure that they are steady. The key is to get the correct response from the beginning, because if you think you will trick them into standing a little bit longer each time, then they probably haven’t completely given into the whoa thing.

I never “trust” that they will stand. I know that I can tell if they are going to stand, but as Neil says it is the unexpected that can ruin your day. For exercises like tree felling, I back my log cart up to a tree and wrap a choker around. They are already conditioned to stand so they don’t spend their time jumping and slamming to get free, but just in case something happens, I won’t find them when I’m limbing out the tree, and I won’t have to walk out of the woods(and they won’t run over my kids coming to visit).

When I have hitches down, I skid one out onto the main trail and “park” them with the hitch, then go back and cut another. They are far enough from where I am so that I won’t hit them, and last fall a really big pine I cut was a few feet taller that I thought and the top landed near enough to fluff their whiskers with wind, and they just watched it fall and waited for me to get back on the cart before they moved an inch.

The only problem I have with taking the lines with me, is that moving the lines is a clue to my horses that I am getting ready to drive, and I have found that keeps them more ready, and not completely relaxed.

I hope things work out for you, Carl

[Does’ Leap]

Rod:

Hope you don’t mind if I add a couple questions related to this topic:

Neil: Do you have your buckback hooked to the bit or to the halter? I have previously hooked to a halter but read in a Steve Bowers book that he hooks to the halter.

All: I am curious reading Carl’s last explination on “Whoa”, how others approach this important command. My wife just attended a Green Mountain Draft Horse Association driving clinic and the two instructors there both use “Whoa” without any line contact and then use line contact only if their horses don’t stop immediately. Their idea is that they want to condition their horses to the verbal command first and foremost.

George

[Neil Dimmock]

Buckback to the bit, if it a bad one to the halter will fail, I never and I mean never had one hurt it own mouth at least never a drop of blood and they will only really try once after that its just for show, and only the really bad ones. In training I ask for a whoa first then the line and head for a voice only stop but don’t count on this for every situation. Some use whoa to much, for some it means stand, or get over or please don’t scare me! it should be used only for stop, and don’t mix it in with a whole bunch of words like( King whoa now) horse don’t understand sentences but single words. I teach my students to speak up as well, that way you know they heard you and you can correct them with a clear conscience. if you mumble you will never know if they heard you or not and you’ll hesitate and soon they take advantage of that and stopping will be a long process, same with turning and backing , say it once, speak up so you know they heard you and then correct if they don’t do as you ask. its like going forward you ask once then move them up and you don’t keep asking them to go forward after that you just let them go, nothing sound worse than a driver saying over and over, Haw, Haw, get over Haw, they sound like a crow, it just a bad habit and teaches your horses to ignore you because there to much info for them to take in .

[Carl Russell]

I was misunderstood. I do not stop my horses with the reins. I speak the command at a time when I know that they have a good connection to the bit, by way of the tension I feel. This is because as soon as I say whoa, I begin to release tension, so that when they are stopped, there is no tension. Total release, reward. The thing is, horses don’t know whoa from duh! unless you teach them, and continue to consistently reinforce the same meaning. So voice is the ultimate goal, but you can use the reins to subtly describe the meaning to them. They can not understand a spoken explanation, but they very much understand physical guidance in the form of pressure and release, and when used properly in conjunction with the expected behavior.

More later, gotta run interference between a bull and a milker, Carl

[Does’ Leap]

@Neil Dimmock 2342 wrote:

In training I ask for a whoa first then the line and head for a voice only stop but don’t count on this for every situation. …………..then correct if they don’t do as you ask. .

Neil, what do you mean by line and “head” and how does your approach differ for trained horses? Also, I am interested in your method of correction when horses hesitate on the go command? I was plowing yesterday and my horses were pretty tired. I was having to ask more than once, at times, to have them go. How much of this do you tolerate when horses are tired. I believe I was giving them adequate rest.

Carl, when you mention pressure or tension before stopping can I assume you are not pulling back on the lines, just providing some pressure and then releasing when stopped? Can I also assume that you would increase pressure dramatically if they take a step or two?

Hope I’m not too off topic for this thread.

Thanks.

George

[Neil Dimmock]

I ask them to stop then if they dont I pull on the line, and the aim or( head) for stop that I dont have to pull on the line to get ,

exhausted horse should never be pushed, if you do your training balkers, You should rest them often and long enuff so there ready to go, if there still to tired then lighten the load or add more horses, take your time until there in shape, a teams should plow an acre pre horse per day but you’ll have to work up to that it wont happen in the first two days, The temptation is big ,lots to do ,team not standing as good as they should, weather is just right! all these thing make you want to push. Some times its your approach to starting them, they should be on a snug line( pull up the slack until you feel the bits) and speak up so you know they heard you and then play out the line( like fishing) as they walk forward but keep them snug dont let them fall loose, this will help insure a smooth start, no flying ahead and then flying back as the other catches up, no swinging from left to right as they look for the bit to guide them.

Now your load is just right for your team and their in good shape, you have your line tension just right and they still dont go, dont shake the line like in the movies or slap them with the lines, Just take a Minuit to study your team, there is always one that is the starter always one that puts it foot out first and the other will fallow,now the starter has played out or just wants the other to start for a while and will just wait, to help this incurage the slower one to step up as soon as the other, say their name or a (light) tap with a whip just before you ask them to go should help, Dont be harsh but be firm, start on lighter loads first then ask then on the heavier loads and you’ll see the diff right away.
Neil

[Carl Russell]

The tension I mention is just to reaffirm for discussion that I can feel the bits, therefore they can feel me. They then can also feel me releasing the tension more accurately. I realize that I describe the action as if it takes time. It has a distinct process, but happens almost instantly.

The other part of this is what you are doing with the lines while working. By constantly stimulating them physically with constant light tension, and varied commands and directions, they are working both physically and mentally, WHILE the bit has tension,AND is active. Then when I release the tension they quickly realize that the stimulus is going to stop, so they can too. This is the reward.

If a horse doesn’t stop, I will increase pressure substantially, while being prepared to release just as quickly as the horse gives the expected responce.

When stopping it is important that the expectation is not to just stop moving, but to stand, as I described earlier, otherwise you are leaving too much up to the horse, like “Sometimes I stop you to stop moving, but this time I expect you to stand”. This is the kind of “trust” that will lead to disaster. Stop the horses to stand, EVERY time you say whoa. Whoa-back-whoa-haw-whoa-come up, will work, and horses love to keep moving, but you have just lost the meaning of whoa somewhere in the mix. Whoa (stand..for a moment)- Back – Whoa (stand.. for 2 moments)- Haw- Whoa (stand….) If you want whoa to mean something important, it needs to be instituted as such.

George, about starting, it is hard to tell exactly without being there. Neil had some good advice. I would ad that I never let my horses stop on their own. I always stop them before they get over-extended. I especially get questions when I stop my horses in the middle of a hill pulling logs uphill. If they can’t start it they won’t pull it, and they need wind and rest like all the rest of us. Also if horses get used to being pushed to the point where they want to stop, they will lose confidence in the teamster, and often will be balky when starting. Try stopping them more often. There is nothing wrong with horses that are well rested, they will work harder between whoas, and probably get more done than if you don’t stop at all.

Carl

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