New Saw?

[Mark Cowdrey]

Where to start.
Thanks for all the replies although I realize this has gone beyond me.
As much as I love hearing that I should get a 372xp, I must admit that Tim’s perspective feels familiar. Sounds like George has been down that road and moved on. And the philosophy of buying the best available and not having problems cuts across all buying, or, investing.
With the amount of work I expect I will do, say maybe 3 10K jobs a year and 8 cords for myself, with chronic right arm wrist, elbow and shoulder issues, and being smallish (155#) and oldish late 50’s, I must admit I wonder about the extra 3 lbs of a 70cc saw vs a 60. And the expense difference of a “mid-range” vs “professional”. Remember that I have been happy w my 351, for its size.
I am not trying to be argumentative, just telling were I am at thought-process-wise.

John, when do you use your 310 vs your 441?

Again, I very much appreciate all the input.
Mark

[Does’ Leap]

Hey Mark, I appreciate your thoughts – not in the least argumentative. I was an avid rock/ice climber in my “youth” and ski racer (maybe too avid) and I have more aches and pains than I care to admit at 40. Farming and logging is very physical and without a sound body I can’t make a living. Therefore, I am very conscious about the efficiency with which I accomplish physical tasks (i.e. output per unit input). After going through the range of saws I mentioned earlier, I am convinced I spend considerably less energy lugging around 4 extra pounds of a 70 cc saw compared with a smaller saw. I can cut so much more wood in less time with less vibration on those joints with a larger saw that the energy expended on cutting a cord of wood is much less compared with a smaller saw. I think the best way to answer this question is to borrow a larger saw and cut with it for a day, then make your decision.

George

[Mark Cowdrey]

George,
Thanks for that perspective. I think essentially the same thing has been said by others on here (e.g. ,Carl, thanks). Sometimes it takes an extremely direct statement to get through my myopic bull-headishness.:D
Expect I can borrow a saw from my sugaring partner, should have thought of that sooner.
Mark

[john plowden]

Mark – I tend to use the441 most of the time -the 310 if I’m going to be doing alot of limbing or cutting spruce/fir –
I can’t emphasize enough how important proper filing and body position will effect how you feel at the end of the day –
If you do try a larger saw make sure it is tuned and sharp –
I don’t notice the extra weight much unless my saw is getting dull – i also use full skip chain that cuts faster and takes less time to file – though will dull sooner –
John

[Mark Cowdrey]

John,
Good points, thanks. I learned the value of a sharp saw, and one way to tell one, when I started boring. When I started using a Swedish roller guide and also started paying attention to depth gauge height, my ability to reasonably quickly have a sharp saw improved dramatically and stopped being a hit or miss operation. Thankfully.

Mark

[Does’ Leap]

@john plowden 24818 wrote:

i also use full skip chain that cuts faster and takes less time to file – though will dull sooner –
John

John, can you explain how the skip chain cuts faster and dulls sooner? I thought its advantage was less sharpening. I know a lot of GOL folks are into skip chains and small bars. I’d be interested to hear how you like the skip chain compared to a regular set-up.

George

[Tim Harrigan]

Mark, how long have been using your current saw? I am wondering about down-time and repairs. Also, I agree with Carl that the xp will be the best woods saw. I take that to mean mainly that you will really notice and appreciate the extra power when felling, maybe less so when limbing and bucking. I am not a production cutter so sometimes I think a little less power makes me slow down and think about what I am doing a little more than I might otherwise. But that is my problem, not a saw issue.

Also, my logical approach does not really acknowledge the emotional component of your relationship with your saw. That counts for something. I have other professional grade woodworking tools that I suppose are hard to justify on an economic basis, but when I get them out I expect a certain level of performance that you just can not get with lower grade tools. It is nice if you really like your tools.

[Carl Russell]

Just to point out that there are pro saws in the smaller models as well. I have a Jonny 2151 that cuts like a bear. Very fast and good torque for a small saw. I use it rarely though, as it really needs a 16″ bar and smaller gauge chain.

There is no doubt that the small saws can be powerful enough, just don’t buy the homeowner grade saw. They have more plastic in them, cheaper carbs, and generally are cheaper because they have cheaper parts.

Carl

[Scott G]

@john plowden 24818 wrote:

i also use full skip chain that cuts faster and takes less time to file – though will dull sooner –
John

This is where I will have to take issue with my good friend, John.

Full-skip does not, on its own merits, cut faster than full-comp. It cuts slower in smaller wood and causes more vibration (bad for saw).

Full-skip was developed specifically for big wood & big bars. There are 1/3 less cutters on full-skip. When cutting large wood the kerf will fill with chips and has a tendency to bog down the saw, thus slowing down chain speed and hence slowing down the cut. Full-skip allows the chips to clear more readily (less cutters) and therefore increases efficiency/cut speed in big wood only. I will use skip but only in bigger wood (>36″) with longer bars (>30″).

On smaller wood, regardless of the length of bar, full-comp will outcut full-skip hands down everytime with much less vibration. Simply because there are more cutters with less spacing.

While I espouse to pretty much everything GOL teaches, if they are advocating short bars with full-skip chain as a more efficient combo they are wrong…

The wildland fire fighting community out west predominantly uses full-skip due to 1) the decreased time needed for sharpening, and 2) this NW timber fallers mentality that carries over into everthing they do and in reality is entirely inappropriate for all but a handfull of timber types. Myself, I’ll almost alway still use full-comp on the fireline.

Here is a chan link (pun?) for Madsen’s out in WA. IMO these folks are the most knowledgable “saw shop” in North America. Myself and the guys I work with do almost all of our own saw work including complete rebuilds. When/if we run into an issue we will contact the guys at Madsen’s. They have never failed me when I order something or have a question.

You may also want to consider buying your chain by the reel & spinning your own chain. It is very easy and you’ll save a lot of money.

http://www.madsens1.com/bnc_sequence.htm

Stihls/Huskys/Jonsereds are all good saws and I have run them all. They all have plusses & minuses. My favorite small saw that I use for climbing is a Stihl 020T, My favorite mid-range, everyday saws are the Husky 372s’, the large big timber saws Husky 3152 & Stihl 088 are both equal in my eyes and I have many hours behind both cutting large timber.

The most important point is that you get what you pay for. Tim’s analogy of woodworking tools is a good one. A fine set of chisels/gouges vs something you would pick up at Harbor Freight. And yes, even the “big boys” (S,H,& J) have backyard consumer models that would equate to just about the same thing. The “landowner” models are a bit better, but again when it comes to rools that I have to count on, almost everyday, I’ll always err on the side of the highest quality & durability I can get.

It’s not about size, its about quality. The price hurts but if you take care of and maintain that saw it could well last you the majority of your lifetime. The two 372’s that I still cut with professionally I’ve had for 13 years. They have cut hard that entire time & it amazes me on how much wood they have went through.

[bburgess]

Hey Scott,

I’ve never heard of a Husky 3152. Did you mean 3120, or is there another saw that I’m not aware of?

Thanks,

Ben

[OldKat]

@Carl Russell 24781 wrote:

On the surface that seems like good sense, but I will say that if the value of the saw is that is will cut, cut what you want and when you want, the lower cost saws are almost disposable in comparison.

It truly comes down to a personal decision. That is fine. It just deserves mention, because many people don’t realize that the professional saws are actually the ones that keep the company in business, reputation etc.

Carl

I can’t add anything to this discussion, because I use my two saws so seldom that I don’t think either has been started in probably five years. Carl’s comments remind me of a conversation that I had with a small engine guy in our town several years ago, though. I was asking him why you never see MacCullough chain saw dealers anymore. At least in our area no one handles them any longer. I think he said at one point they were completely out of business, which kind of surprised me because I thought that when I was kid they had a reputation as being a fairly rugged saw … at least as far as lower priced saws go. He said that they started making them lighter and lighter, so they could sell them for $79.0 at the big box stores and at Wal-Mart. He said people would bring saws in for him to repair that were only had 20 to 25 hours on them or so and they would be completely shot. When he gave them an estimate to repair the saw they would get mad at HIM, because it would cost more to repair it than it would to buy a new one. He said he finally just started telling people that he would not work on any Mac saw regardless how new or old it was.

He also showed me how to read the code on the manufacturers tag for expected hours of use. Not sure if they still do this, but apparently it was required at the time. Shortly after he showed me how to read the code, I was in a big box store looking at leaf blowers and hedge trimmers. Would you believe some of them had a life expectancy of less than 10 hours? I can’t begin to determine what saw would be best for your situation, but apparently it works out here like it does in other situations … you get what you pay for.

[mitchmaine]

hey old kat, i ran macs for a few years. i had a 10-10, a 60, an 81 and a 125. great saws. heavy rugged and dependable. then remington started making them and instantly they were no longer the same saw. then there were these saws made out of plastic by a vacuum cleaner co. electro-lux. oh, great! anyway they called them partner, johnsreds and husquvarna. so i tried the partner and wow. light weight fast and sharp. then i went back to my old mcculloghs and thats when you know the difference. so i bought a 162 husky and owned nothing else since. they had a 266 that was the best saw i ever owned. girlfriends come and girlfriends go and some stick in your mind for various reasons. that was the 266. a screaming saw but like all companies that have to give you a new model every two years, husky blew it and we lost that saw. tough break. but i still buy ’em. got a 375 and a 359 and two 262’s. love ’em.

mitch

[leehorselogger]

@Scott G 24829 wrote:

This is where I will have to take issue with my good friend, John.

Full-skip does not, on its own merits, cut faster than full-comp. It cuts slower in smaller wood and causes more vibration (bad for saw).

Full-skip was developed specifically for big wood & big bars. There are 1/3 less cutters on full-skip. When cutting large wood the kerf will fill with chips and has a tendency to bog down the saw, thus slowing down chain speed and hence slowing down the cut. Full-skip allows the chips to clear more readily (less cutters) and therefore increases efficiency/cut speed in big wood only. I will use skip but only in bigger wood (>36″) with longer bars (>30″).

On smaller wood, regardless of the length of bar, full-comp will outcut full-skip hands down everytime with much less vibration. Simply because there are more cutters with less spacing.

While I espouse to pretty much everything GOL teaches, if they are advocating short bars with full-skip chain as a more efficient combo they are wrong…

The wildland fire fighting community out west predominantly uses full-skip due to 1) the decreased time needed for sharpening, and 2) this NW timber fallers mentality that carries over into everthing they do and in reality is entirely inappropriate for all but a handfull of timber types. Myself, I’ll almost alway still use full-comp on the fireline.

Here is a chan link (pun?) for Madsen’s out in WA. IMO these folks are the most knowledgable “saw shop” in North America. Myself and the guys I work with do almost all of our own saw work including complete rebuilds. When/if we run into an issue we will contact the guys at Madsen’s. They have never failed me when I order something or have a question.

You may also want to consider buying your chain by the reel & spinning your own chain. It is very easy and you’ll save a lot of money.

http://www.madsens1.com/bnc_sequence.htm

Stihls/Huskys/Jonsereds are all good saws and I have run them all. They all have plusses & minuses. My favorite small saw that I use for climbing is a Stihl 020T, My favorite mid-range, everyday saws are the Husky 372s’, the large big timber saws Husky 3152 & Stihl 088 are both equal in my eyes and I have many hours behind both cutting large timber.

The most important point is that you get what you pay for. Tim’s analogy of woodworking tools is a good one. A fine set of chisels/gouges vs something you would pick up at Harbor Freight. And yes, even the “big boys” (S,H,& J) have backyard consumer models that would equate to just about the same thing. The “landowner” models are a bit better, but again when it comes to rools that I have to count on, almost everyday, I’ll always err on the side of the highest quality & durability I can get.

It’s not about size, its about quality. The price hurts but if you take care of and maintain that saw it could well last you the majority of your lifetime. The two 372’s that I still cut with professionally I’ve had for 13 years. They have cut hard that entire time & it amazes me on how much wood they have went through.

actually,full skip willcut just as fast in smaller wood if you drop the depth guides,square file…and are willing to tighten your chain regularly….chain stretch is the probem with doing this,but faster sharpening is the benefit

[Anonymous]

I love thinking about good saws that are no longer with me. Its just as nice reading about others saws. My all time fave was the 2063and 2163. Scream like the devil but still had bottom end power. Running a 2156 and 372 currantly.

As I read and watch sort films I’v noticed that most cutters in the US use much longer bars than I’m used to seeing. In the circle of pros I work in we use mainly 16″ bars with full chiesel chains. I’m a bit of a odd ball and change my most of my tips to the narrow reduced kick back. I’m thinking our trees are likley to be smaller however I cut some large pine and hemlock and pine over 38″. Are longer bars increasing production or is it a quality of work thats the advantage? Also dose any one else use pulp wood whips on thier saws to measure with?

[john plowden]

Respectfully Scott – yes skip is for big wood – but it works for what I’ve been cutting here – faster – 20″bar 3/8x7rim sprocket ,50 guage- most of the wood is hardwood 12″or better and pine 18″ and up –

[Author]

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