Odd Jobs

[Rod]

Hi Rod44

When you tie yours back to the wagon do you do it with the reins or with a halter? Is that a good idea or can they get hurt that way?

[Does’ Leap]

Rod:

We have the same situation with 6 strand, high tensile fence running all over our farm. I bought some 20′ nylon (poly?) line extenders that I buckle on my lines. When I am loading wood (you have to block it ahead of time), I have the lines in hand or close by. This enables me to move around the wagon pitching wood. It is also a great exercise for the horses standing. When an infraction (stepping foward) occurs and they’re corrected when I am far away, I believe it extends my sphere of influence in their mind. In fact, I can’t think of the last time I’ve had to correct such an infraction. I think I paid $20 for the extenders.

George

[Rod44]

I tie the lines back to the wagon. If you pull the pin on the double tree and the neck yoke isn’t bolted to the tongue they can’t take off with the wagon. They may break the lines but won’t take off with the wagon.

The line extenders sound like a good idea. I have buckles on the end of my lines (if you don’t, you should) and thought in the past of just running a single long rope to them. You should be able to at least stop them that way.

[Rod]

I have 10′ line extenders I can buckle into my lines now. But it’s hard to work when you have to be on the alert all the time for a breakaway. I like the hobble idea and would like to hear for someone who has tried that. I also saw in a video where the horse’s face was covered with a blanket so he couldn’t see while he was loaded up? Any thought on that?

[Rod44]

Something else you might try. Do you have them trained to a “stand” command? I have mine trained to “stand” untied while they are being harnessed and unharnessed. When unharnessing they stand facing the tie stall. I unharness one and hang the harness and then tell her she can go in and eat her oats. The other one stands there untill she is unharnessed and told she can go in too. Therefore, they know what “stand” means and I think helps to reinforce their standing while hitched.

[Rod]

Sounds like you have two polite females. Mine are pushy males and like all of us males they love to eat. That would be a major feat to get mine to do that.:)

[Rod44]

They didn’t want to stand at first either. Typical pushy haflingers. I started them out by taking them out of their stall and brushing them. If they moved any foot I would give them a jerk, talk rough and back them up a couple steps. It took 5 or 6 brushings for them to catch on. They were alright when went I bring them into the barn and let them stand harnessed while I put the oats in their boxes. But when I unharnessed one and let her go eat the other one was tempted to go in too. But, she got over it with a couple jerks and backups.

I would think geldings would be easier than mares????

[Carl Russell]

My own personal opinion is that I can’t do any work with my horses if they don’t stand. When I need them to stand that is what they should be doing. It is a lot easier to say than do, but when you get it in your head what you expect from the horse, and show them, then when you say whoa they will stand.

That is not to say that they should ever be trusted, but I can’t load my wagon with manure if I’ve got my lines in one hand, and when I say whoa, that is their job, and it is up to me to do, before hand, what needs to be done so that they understand what to do.

One of the biggest draw-backs to developing the skills required for those small odd jobs, is the fact that they are required to do the jobs in the first place. When the horses are left un-worked until the job just has to be done, then they don’t have the chance to practice, and therefore are potentially dangerous and unruly.

I find success comes from regular harnessing and hitching, and the exercise of even just menial endeavors, just to get into the rhythm. If you wait until you need them to stand before you practice it, it will invariably not work.

I would have to say that these are the reasons why machinery has been so successful. You can have a different machine to do different jobs. You can turn it off, or turn it on whenever it is needed. The difference is that you pay for the engineering and manufacturing up front with the machine, and you make it up as you go along with the animals. They are two completely different mindsets, and often difficult to reconcile.

Sometimes it feels like I spent more time harnessing then I did working, but I got something done.

Carl

[Ronnie Tucker]

very well said and so true ronnie tucker tn logger

[Gabe Ayers]

“If they don’t have a park, then none of their other gears count.”

The only way I am aware of getting work animals to stand willingly for long periods of time is to have them tired enough that standing is their favorite command. I think it comes back to the use of whoa as a reward concept, the old saying “the greatest reward for any beast of burden is cessation of demand” which equals whoa, relax, stand still, you are safe.

The more you use them the better they get, just the opposite of a machine. When a machine is broke it needs repair, when a team is broke they stand willingly and work even better, longer, stronger and more reliable.

Cross training is important though. Doing lots of tasks with any work animal is better for them in that they experience different settings, levels of resistance to their movement and the only constant is the request to stand…. so that command becomes a common feature in everything they do.

There is much to be taught while on the ground and handling while harnessing, including the opportunity to imprint train babies to relax when cradled by whispering whoa in their ears as they are cradled the first time, (after they relax), as they are touched by a human for the first time.
This lesson will last a lifetime and is easier to learn and accept as a positive reinforcement of that behavior.

I think when a horse whisperer talks they are talking to themselves mostly and hoping the horse/mule/oxen/animal understands…after a while of repeated audio signals and certain responses it becomes clear that they do understand some of the sounds (words) or noises we make…and it is up to us to reinforce that understanding… particularly when it comes to standing…

Sweat equity in a working animal is a true measure of their value as servants and partners in life. There is no replacement for work, moving against resistance and relaxing upon completion of any effort, but it does take effort to get them to really be willing to stand still.

Given that they are all prey animals that instinctively flee to survive we have to teach them that if they stand still they are safe. Maybe they think they are invisible if they don’t move, like a fawn in the hay? The only reason our logging horses ever move when left to stand in the woods is to browse a few leaves when they get hungry. If they are accepting us as the boss horse, then it makes sense we would be taking them in the woods to find something to eat anyway….

Keep working them, make whoa be a reward, but take the lead lines with you everywhere in case you have to leave them for longer than a few minutes, so you can tie them and increase the likelihood of them still being there when you get back to give them your attention. This is why real working horses wear halters while working, so we can tie them up if we need to.

[jen judkins]

Coming to this thread late, but certainly an interesting read…

I’ll just throw in my recent experience with Peanut to agree with both Jason and Carl. I spent 3 days with Ted Russell at his place last week. My main goal, besides getting some help starting to pull heavier and noisier loads with Peanut, was to develope our ‘whoa’, which has been pretty much non-existent, so far. He’ll be 3 next month and I admit I still sort of treat him like a baby and have not done any hard work with him at all.

Ted hooked us to a springtooth harrow, a pretty heavy one and set us to work. It didn’t take but two turns around the small patch of dirt for Peanut to find ‘Park’. It was incredibly obvious to me that the load was essential to start teaching this and that without it, ‘whoa’ had no meaning to Peanut. By the end of an hour, I could park Peanut, get out of the cart and fiddle with the harrow or have a conversation with a bystander whithout him even thinking of moving. I lengthened the time we stood still to 20 minutes or so without any problem over a couple of days.

In the mornings, when he was fresh and without a load, his ‘whoa’ deteriorated abit so I know now that we really need to start doing work regularly to get the ‘park’ mode solidified for him. It doesn’t happen in a weekend, but in regular, consistent work. That is gonna be a significant challenge for me, but it has to happen.

[Plowboy]

Jen, Good work at giving Peanut a park! Looks like you might be turning a little “Old School” :). I suggested more work for a horse in an early thread and several folks degraded my suggestion but I know from EXPERIENCE that it does work especially if you can’t work them every day or at least several times a week. Resistance is a great tool. When you get them standing good the rest of the horses you train will stand quicker working with one that will stand. Our first team we trained ourselves with help from friends and it took a while to get them standing well but once we did the rest we trained with them stood well quicker because they were relaxed standing next to their calm herdmate that didn’t want to move until asked. Great Job

[Carl Russell]

Biological Woodsman;9154 wrote:

….This is why real working horses wear halters while working, so we can tie them up if we need to.

I agree with being prepared to tie them up, but I am of the school that thinks that working horses will stand to have their bridles taken off and halters put on, or vice versa. There is no reason in my experience to have the halter on under the bridle. It serves no purpose when the animal is being driven, and worked, and when they are to be tied, in my opinion, they should be unhitched, so changing the bridle to halter is an insignificant step.

This brings up a few comments from earlier posts that I want to address. Tying horses to light objects, or hitch rails that can be torn apart, or tying them while hitched to equipment, or tying them by their lines/bits, or standing with neck yoke and evener, are all pretty risky and potentially faulty choices.

I realize that we all bring certain levels of experience to these endeavors, and therefore we have our own understanding of personal risk/comfort, but thinking of this site as a resource for all those interested, particularly novices, I just feel the need to advise to try to avoid these types of situations.

Horses that move a sled, or hitch rail will quickly become frantic as the object “chases” them.

Horses that try to move but find their lines tied can be hurt or possibly destroy bridles.

Horses that run with neck yoke hanging in front banging on their knees, or evener bouncing off their heels, will likely be very hard to catch and calm down.

Horses that are tied by their halter under a bridle while still hitched to a piece of equipment may stand for a long time, but the potential entanglement could be tragic.

When I am not going to be able to pay attention to the animals, I unhitch from the equipment, un-bridle, halter, and tie them safely out of the way. The only alternative to that is when I hitch a choker chain around a tree and hook up the cart with animals still hitched, and in this case they think they are hooked to a working load and stand patiently.

I don’t mean to offend anyone, just thought it prudent to point out these details.

Carl

[jen judkins]

@Plowboy 9160 wrote:

Looks like you might be turning a little “Old School” :).

Well, Dennis, I’m nothing but a pragmatist…if it works and my horse is happy, so am I. I don’t have enough time in my life to be ineffective with it.:D

Had to laugh at the image you inspried, of Peanut someday being the horse I hook the youngsters to. I hope this forum is still here when that day comes so I can brag about it too.:p.

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Jen, Just out of curiosity, when you headed up to Ted’s last week you hoped to work on the whoa, witch was needing some work. Did you mean stopping when you asked or standing after stopping? The reason I ask is because we have been mixing our terms a little and I just wanted to see what you were working on.

Standing (my definition) is a horse or a team, in harness with lines attached. Standing waiting until the next instruction to do something. They may be hooked to something or not. Someone may have the lines in their hand or not. Someone maybe standing in front of them or not. They are not tied up. Jason calls it Parked.

This is an incredibly important and useful skill for working horses, mules, and probable oxen. I think it is also often misunderstood or misused. I use it a million times a day to hook and unhook, to hook carts to other pieces of equipment, to rest, To examine hay, or nose into the shop and fix a loose bolt. I use it when tugs are tangled, or a neck yoke breaks. I used it to great effect yesterday when a mule stepped into a chain harrow I was looking for (found it). Everyone (three abreast of youngsters) stayed still while I lift his foot up and out of the harrow.

What I don’t use it for is to leave the animals. I don’t answer the phone or go in the house to get a drink. I don’t get in a car and go over to the neighbors. I don’t turn my back to them and start running a chain saw and forget they are there. I don’t fill my spreader with out someone else there. Other people will be able to do different things with different teams to a point.

I especially appreciated Jason’s comments. In my opinion here is a man who through 30 year’s of necessity, horsemanship, and close observation has developed his teams ability to stand to a high art. But he concludes with you need to know when to tie them up. Be cautious, learn your own limits and your horses limits. I don’t care if you use a halter under the bridle or not, but be prepared to tie them up in a safe manner when you leave them beyond your control.

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