offgrid and fuel savings

[Carl Russell]

Geoff, my points are in reference to the initiative that motivates me toward making decisions about sustainable lifestyle choices, not about whether or not the Earth can sustain large populations of humans.

My point about per capita resource use is not about justifying, nor condemning a particular lifestyle, nor population density, but merely to point out, just as you reiterate, that population and lifestyle choices are not necessarily mutually inclusive. A small number of people using short sighted judgment are more destructive than large numbers for the sake of it. I absolutely agree that the carrying capacity of the Earth is overwhelmed by shear human numbers, but that fact has nothing to do with my individual choices about lifestyle.

The point about personal sovereignty has to do with being able to stand alone. To understand that even though there are forces in place, that were in place when you landed here, that you can find ways to sustain yourself and your community without blind allegiance to the conventional, or expected, and that what may seem like the only option because it is the only game in town does not have to limit your expression, and that as you take appraisal of all the things that the pundits and political leaders are ringing their hands over (those things you guys have been listing) you can free yourself from the masses as they slip closer and closer to the gaping hole with the huge sucking sound.

I realize that “social responsibility” has a huge grip on so many people, but how responsible are you going to be if you just slide into the hole with the masses. We have to learn about ourselves as Earth creatures with individual capabilities to survive with what we have in our immediate surroundings, and be able to allow those around us to fail without cutting our own throats and the eliminating the options for our children. The plant lets the dried leaves sluff off, and I am prepared to do that as well.

In the meantime, I will continue to build an infrastructure here that can do the best job that I think it can, to provide for my family, and as many as five others, into perpetuity, or at least as close as I can come up with based on my limited understanding, but working all the time closer to those energy sources limited to what I can make or grow myself. As heart-breaking as it is to see the way we have destroyed the Earth and have seriously limited future human existence, my responsibility is to my family, then to a small number of people in my immediate neighborhood, and then we’ll see after that.

Sustainability for me is about survival, and in some ways that can take on short term characteristics, but survival in the best sense has to be sustainable, or it doesn’t work. And thus survival is very personal, and in my mind is limited by outside influences, and weakened through efforts to save everyone else, but it is also unsuccessful if it is purely individual, so we each have to decide how big our community needs to be. Some want to be part of a very large group, others can be satisfied with a very small group.

I know that to be successful, I have to be part of a small group, and I make no apologies for that.

Carl

[near horse]

I realize that “social responsibility” has a huge grip on so many people, but how responsible are you going to be if you just slide into the hole with the masses. We have to learn about ourselves as Earth creatures with individual capabilities to survive with what we have in our immediate surroundings, and be able to allow those around us to fail without cutting our own throats and the eliminating the options for our children. The plant lets the dried leaves sluff off, and I am prepared to do that as well.

This is where that “stupid brain” I mentioned in an earlier post comes into play. We aren’t like other animals in the respect that we can see what our “choices” may bring and allowing “others to fail w/o cutting our own throats” is the problem. That hole your talking about is taking everyone in – personal sovereignty or not.

how responsible are you going to be if you just slide into the hole with the masses.

I think that making the effort to provide assistance to those who “landed wherever they happen to have been born” by no choice or doing of their own IS being responsible – not hunkering down w/ a few locals to protect MY stuff and way of life and pass on my genes. It’s how you live not how long you live that way. If the whole place goes up in flames, so be it. But the bunker mentality that all this personal sovereignty stuff begats is exactly what won’t work sustainably. This gets back to our differences on what constitutes community. Even if things get/got really bad, do you think that the billions of people you claim are sliding into the hole will just go down w/o battling for survival?

[Carl Russell]

Geoff you seem to be completely misinterpreting what I am talking about. I am talking about the initiative that causes an individual to make changes in their own life to live in a sustainable way. If I am spending my time trying to solve other people’s problems, then I am not putting into place those things that I will require to be able to help even the smallest group of people.

We delude ourselves into believing that we can actually see what our choices can bring. That is why we are where we are. We focus on what we think is the point, and we always miss the real affect of our choices, until they come up and bite us on the butt.

You see the global mess, and finding solutions to that as being the point, I see that as the problem, and look for skills that I can use personally to survive, as the solution.

In fact the “hole” is only sucking in those who don’t see or hear it, and those who can’t feel the pull of the current. I didn’t say that helping others was going to pull me down. What will pull us down is running wildly, frantic with the crowd, rather than finding some good solid ground to hold onto. And I have no remorse in letting the crowd go in their frantic headlong rush to a new horizon.

When you’re sick of trying to help people who can’t hear you, or who can’t believe what you’re trying to tell them, then you will know that if you find me, I will have food, roof, and wood to share, and you will be welcome. This is not a new conviction for me. I first had this argument with college classmates in 1980, and many who thought that I was thoughtless and fanatical, have begun reconnecting with me to learn some of what I have to offer.

As far as those who want to take what I have, that is an even better reason to put the time in now to a secure and functional home. I can share what I have that will work, and because of that, I will plan to have association with a growing number of people who will all work together to fend off the roaming bands.

Carl

[near horse]

Wow – Carl, we are worlds apart on this issue. Some of your last comments seem almost circular – like “if I spend time helping people then I can’t be ready to help people” (my paraphrase)

If I am spending my time trying to solve other people’s problems, then I am not putting into place those things that I will require to be able to help even the smallest group of people.

We delude ourselves into believing that we can actually see what our choices can bring. That is why we are where we are. We focus on what we think is the point, and we always miss the real affect of our choices, until they come up and bite us on the butt.

That IS all we have – the ability to try and make decisions (and hence choices) looking forward. We’re not right all the time. Nobody is. But we’re also not wrong all the time either.

In fact the “hole” is only sucking in those who don’t see or hear it, and those who can’t feel the pull of the current. I didn’t say that helping others was going to pull me down. What will pull us down is running wildly, frantic with the crowd, rather than finding some good solid ground to hold onto. And I have no remorse in letting the crowd go in their frantic headlong rush to a new horizon

I don’t even really understand what “hole” or “solid ground” you’re talking about. Or new horizon.

When you’re sick of trying to help people who can’t hear you, or who can’t believe what you’re trying to tell them, then you will know that if you find me, I will have food, roof, and wood to share, and you will be welcome

That’s exactly how I feel about this discussion. So I don’t see how we can be so different in our view of how we help people. Perhaps it’s in how much risk we are willing to take in assisting someone and who we’re willing to take in. I don’t know for sure but I do know I can’t live that way. If that means I’m doomed, I’ll go willingly.

Good luck with your endeavor as well.

[Carl Russell]

Geoff, I’m glad you can see how far we apart. It will be the first step for you.

If I am spending my time trying to solve other people’s problems, then I am not putting into place those things that I will require to be able to help even the smallest group of people.

This doesn’t say helping people will distract me from helping people, it says trying to solve other people’s problems, which I don’t think is truly helping anyway, will distract me from implementing the solutions that I need to support me in my basic function, which I require before I can help even one other person.

I don’t even really understand what “hole” or “solid ground” you’re talking about. Or new horizon.

This is what I was trying to get you to realize. When you finally become aware of how your allegiance to the socially correct concept of trying to save the world has placed you square in the middle of a sweeping wave of mindless human flesh pouring over the edge of a cliff, you will have a better idea of what I am referring to. The “hole” is that place where we make bad decisions based on a tradition of bad decisions, in the hopes that it will bring a new result ( new horizon), and the “solid ground” is that place where you finally feel yourself taking control of the elements of your own success based on simple human truths that have been overlooked, or even disdained, for eons.

Carl

[near horse]

It will be the first step for you

Towards what?

trying to solve other people’s problems, which I don’t think is truly helping anyway,

That’s convenient to decide that solving their problems isn’t helping them. It takes away that responsibility you like to talk about.

This is what I was trying to get you to realize. When you finally become aware of how your allegiance to the socially correct concept of trying to save the world has placed you square in the middle of a sweeping wave of mindless human flesh pouring over the edge of a cliff, you will have a better idea of what I am referring to. The “hole” is that place where we make bad decisions based on a tradition of bad decisions, in the hopes that it will bring a new result ( new horizon), and the “solid ground” is that place where you finally feel yourself taking control of the elements of your own success based on simple human truths that have been overlooked, or even disdained, for eons.

I am aware, not of any allegiance to anyone or anything, but of the frightening mindset that you’re promoting – that’s what will take us over the edge. And, as I said earlier, I’ll go willingly before I will ever adopt this attitude and perspective. Sorry.

[Carl Russell]

Quote:

trying to solve other people’s problems, which I don’t think is truly helping anyway,

Quote:

That’s convenient to decide that solving their problems isn’t helping them. It takes away that responsibility you like to talk about.

The operative point there is “TRYING to solve….”. What is not helpful, and at the same time distracting is focusing on so-called problems that affect other people, or are just so large in nature that they easily extend beyond your own physical sphere of influence, and then putting time and energy into TRYING to find and implement solutions.

I mean, that’s fine if that’s what you feel is your calling, just realize that very few of us have our own houses in order enough to be able to sustain the let-down and depletion of resources when our work outside of our own need turns out to be wasted through factors beyond our own control, such as those that result from a lack of full understanding of those we are trying to help. I understand the desire to feel important and generous to other people, and there always has to be someone who gives of themselves completely. I admire you for wanting to be like that, but at this stage, I have too much more work to do, and too many people counting on me to prepare to go down holding hands.

Otherwise I can’t argue with anything else from your last post. You have clearly stated your perspective, and all I can say is that you are not alone.

Carl

[TBigLug]

Wow, I just got done reading this topic and it took a turn for the intense there towards the end. I learned alot from everyone’s back and forth debate though. Man I love this place.

Anyways, returning to the original post.

I currently live in a lifestyle that is one foot off the grid and one foot on. My g/f and I live in a camper at my grandfathers farm. As such, our heat, refrigerator, stove and hot water are all propane. All of our lights are 12V. The only 120V appliances we have are the microwave and AC. We have the option of electric hot water but we don’t use it. I had to laugh because of an earlier post someone made about not wanting to unplug the microwave everyday. Ours is actually on a switch so it either powers the microwave, water heater or OFF. The two 12V batteries that power the furnace blower and lights are charged by an inverter. Now, in a perfect world I’d love to have the entire roof coated with solar panels to keep our batteries charged and install an inverter for occasional use of the television and computer but I just don’t posess that kind of income right now. Maybe someday. As far as the farm goes, our biggest contribution is by trying to use the horses to rake as much hay ad plow as much ground as possible.

[Author]

Posts