Oil ; The True Alterantive Fuel

[firebrick43]

I am new here on this forum but have lived some what of an “alternate” lifestyle by working with my drafts and using wood to provide the majority of my heat.

First even I considerate alternate because more than 99 percent of humans in this country consider oil the “standard”. In this PC time no one wants to be labeled different but we are.

The rest is a generalization and does not necessarily apply to those on this forum.

Second, being “green” in this country has become a new religion with Al Gore as the preacher.

Solar water heat is an excellent source of energy in most of the US but Solar electricity is not a viable form of electricity unless you live far from the grid and bringing it to your domicile would cost over 10,000-15,000. All products are made of energy and their cost reflects this energy. If it does not make financial sense then it does not make ecological sense either.

The cost of a PV system including battery maintenance far exceeds any savings you will obtain from buying the same KW’s from the grid. The production energy needed for the panels and batteries negates the free energy that you capture from the sun.

Outdoor wood boilers and wood furnaces even fit into this category. The High initial cost and there gross inefficiency do to there design negates switching off of propane/fuel oil. Especially to put up 10 to 15 cords a year most have a large wood splitter and a good sized pickup. My neighbor has a similar house to me, 1400 square ft, and bought a boiler for close to 7000 dollars, has all the associated equipment and burns 12 cords a year. I spent 700 dollars to insulate my ceiling to R60 and my crawlspace, and to make insulated plugs to fit in my unoccupied rooms windows, another 1800 for a high efficient (70 percent) wood stove and burn 2.0 to 2.5 cords here in Indiana, and my wood splitter is my maul and splitting wedges. As good as shape as I am, I would not split 12 cords by hand considering the physical job I already have.

Same goes towards hybrid cars, A honda Insight will never save you money during its life due to the initial cost and maintenance cost, therefore there is no energy “savings” compared to a honda fit that gets a few less MPG compared but has significantly lower maintenance cost and purchase cost.

These products are people penitence for sinning against their earth according to their new found religion. And they preach their “religion” to others using tales of apocalyptic woes.

The majority of people realize this, and do want there “religion” changed.
Same as most Christians get upset when Jehovah’s witnesses come knocking at there door.

To change their minds we cant tell them the end is near, they don’t care about anything but the hear and now.

We cant tell them that solar electric is there answer when the systems cost is well out of the reach of most who live pay check to pay check.

You have to show them and teach them that some forms of “alternate” to their oil energy methods are cost saving and not that hard to implement.

Teach them that instead up replacing their source of energy completely that we can reduce the amount we use through simple low cost methods that don’t require much change in lifestyle.

Little by little, and never as religious zealots but as compassionate neighbors.

[firebrick43]

I am new here on this forum but have lived some what of an “alternate” lifestyle by working with my drafts and using wood to provide the majority of my heat.

First even I considerate alternate because more than 99 percent of humans in this country consider oil the “standard”. In this PC time no one wants to be labeled different but we are.

The rest is a generalization and does not necessarily apply to those on this forum.

Second, being “green” in this country has become a new religion with Al Gore as the preacher.

Solar water heat is an excellent source of energy in most of the US but Solar electricity is not a viable form of electricity unless you live far from the grid and bringing it to your domicile would cost over 10,000-15,000. All products are made of energy and their cost reflects this energy. If it does not make financial sense then it does not make ecological sense either.

The cost of a PV system including battery maintenance far exceeds any savings you will obtain from buying the same KW’s from the grid. The production energy needed for the panels and batteries negates the free energy that you capture from the sun.

Outdoor wood boilers and wood furnaces even fit into this category. The High initial cost and there gross inefficiency do to there design negates switching off of propane/fuel oil. Especially to put up 10 to 15 cords a year most have a large wood splitter and a good sized pickup. My neighbor has a similar house to me, 1400 square ft, and bought a boiler for close to 7000 dollars, has all the associated equipment and burns 12 cords a year. I spent 700 dollars to insulate my ceiling to R60 and my crawlspace, and to make insulated plugs to fit in my unoccupied rooms windows, another 1800 for a high efficient (70 percent) wood stove and burn 2.0 to 2.5 cords here in Indiana.

Same goes towards hybrid cars, A honda Insight will never save you money during its life due to the initial cost and maintenance cost, therefore there is no energy “savings” compared to a honda fit that gets a few less MPG compared but has significantly lower maintenance cost and purchase cost.

These products are people penitence for sinning against their earth according to their new found religion. And they preach their “religion” to others using tales of apocalyptic woes.

The majority of people realize this, and do want there “religion” changed.
Same as most Christians get upset when Jehovah’s witnesses come knocking at there door.

To change their minds we cant tell them the end is near, they don’t care about anything but the hear and now.

We cant tell them that solar electric is there answer when the systems cost is well out of the reach of most who live pay check to pay check.

You have to show them and teach them that some forms of “alternate” to their oil energy methods are cost saving and not that hard to implement.

Teach them that instead up replacing their source of energy completely that we can reduce the amount we use through simple low cost methods that don’t require much change in lifestyle.

Little by little, and never as religious zealots but as compassionate neighbors.

[Fermentation]

@Carl Russell 386 wrote:

As physical beings, we have a need to be physically active. More than just active, involved. Physically involved in our lives. Involved in the life around us.

If each of us alive today,
laid hands upon our very lives,
what a garden we would have.
Eden.

As much as our minds are powerful enough to use up huge amounts of energy, our bodies are designed to physically manifest our intentions. When we practice the intellectual-isation of our lives, we rob ourselves of the true human experience. As our mind is stimulated by the environment around us, we must respond or interact through our physical body. Each one of us has different experiences, different physical make-up, and different abilities. When we involve ourselves physically in the life around us, our actions are personal, individual, expressions of SELF.

From Kidergarten to the Corporate Ladder, to the Church or politics, or to the sports arena, we live in a culture where our involvement in the life around us is orchestrated to meet expectations. Most of our energy is directed at trying to meet the expectations that will help us attain status. If we can’t attain status, then there is a stigma of inadequacy. Then our involvement in the life around us has been taken away. There are others more capable that will do it for us. We work for them, cheer for them, vote for them.

As personally, physically involved, expressive beings we are sovereign individuals. As we personally respond to our physical needs, we claim our sovereignty. As we contribute to our family and community with the physical skills and limitations that are the result of our own life experience we truly fulfill our human potential.

A physical Life is an artistic expression. Living is an art. It’s like a dance where each person brings to the floor their own step. There is no need to be threatened because we each have the opportunity to fully express ourselves. As we free ourselves through creative physical endeavor, we validate the similar efforts and contributions of our mates and neighbors.

A culture of people like this will embrace the woman with knowledge and skills of laundry. Carl

Beautiful, beautiful words. You should be writing these things down. Thank you. Our generation entering the post oil economy need to hear this, we’re all struggling in the matrix for meaning in life. we live an existence full of apathy, fear, hopelessness, and despair. We could have fulfillment, if we just used our bodies. They are machines, and when you don’t use machines, they break down. Our culture is sick,may your words be a blessing to our collective illness. Be well.

[bivol]

the biggest and most demanding feats in engineering and architecture were achieved by human muscle. today the power of a human being is underrated, but one look at historical achievements shows this outlook is horribly wrong.

let’s just remember the Great canal in china, 1114 miles long, or the chinese wall, or pyramids in mesoamerica, remarkable because no animals were employed whatsoever, in transport or otherwise.

these are the physically lasting monuments, but no less remarkable is the work of mankind producing its food by toiling today unimaginable by most of urban population, and a part of rural, too.

historically, in feudal system, there was an obligation of peasants to work for their lord. some worked physically, others had freight service with wagons.

this method was employed after ww2 in my country. every family who had a healthy young man to spare had to give one to do “volonteer work” for the state. it was a tax in labor, and was used to great extent to bring the country out of ruins, and get the large country projects (railroad reparation, infrastructure repair) going.

if we don’t do, we lose faith we can do.

[FintanK]

I must admit it makes me laugh nowadays when I hear people I know talk about how often they go to the gym and how conscious of the impact of climate change and peak oil they are.

Then they head of to their air conditioned gym to expand a hell of a lot of energy on excercises which are 100% inefficient as they don’t create anything at the end.

Why people don’t save their monthly membership fee and get outdoors is beyond me. If they bought themselves an axe and got a pile of rounds (for free) they could chop firewood all day at the end of the day have a pile of firewood to sell or use and eventually arms like a lumberjack.

As any who has ever chopped firewood with an axe will tell you chopping wood with an axe is one of the most exhausting physical excercises in existence.

Then there are the people who won’t run outside and prefer to run in an air conditioned room on a treadmill, which needs electricity derived from oil to operate. Why can’t they just exercise outside and reduce their carbon foot print?

I could rant on about this topic for hours, so I’ll stop now.

[OldKat]

@FintanK 10299 wrote:

I must admit it makes me laugh nowadays when I hear people I know talk about how often they go to the gym and how conscious of the impact of climate change and peak oil they are.

Then they head of to their air conditioned gym to expand a hell of a lot of energy on excercises which are 100% inefficient as they don’t create anything at the end.

Why people don’t save their monthly membership fee and get outdoors is beyond me. If they bought themselves an axe and got a pile of rounds (for free) they could chop firewood all day at the end of the day have a pile of firewood to sell or use and eventually arms like a lumberjack.

As any who has ever chopped firewood with an axe will tell you chopping wood with an axe is one of the most exhausting physical excercises in existence.

Then there are the people who won’t run outside and prefer to run in an air conditioned room on a treadmill, which needs electricity derived from oil to operate. Why can’t they just exercise outside and reduce their carbon foot print?

I could rant on about this topic for hours, so I’ll stop now.

Well at least I’m not the only one that noticed the irony of this situation. Kind of funny isn’t it? People will work that hard for no real discernible production, outside of the positives it provides for their bodies. I use to work with two guys that worked out 3 to 4 times a week in the same gym near our office. One time they were giving me crap because I didn’t go to the gym with them to work out. So I told them; “I’ll tell you what, you come over my house next time we are off and let’s go build fence together. I’ll pay you $10.0 per hour and we will work for probably 9 to 10 hours. That is 90 to 100 dollars for the day. At the end of the day we will have a contest to dig one hole for a corner post each; 14 inches in diameter by 36 inches deep. If you can hang with me, I will pay you an additional $100.0 for digging that hole. If you can’t, I will only owe you one half of your days pay. Fair enough?”

Both of these guys were money grubbers and I thought for sure one or both would jump on that, but neither one would touch it. Maybe it was the work, maybe it was the thought of being out in the heat and humidity that long or maybe it was because they knew that there was no way in hell they could match me on that last part. Anyway, neither took me up on it. Guess what, I never heard them bragging again about how long and hard they worked out in the gym! :rolleyes:

Oh, and BTW: Your point is well taken about electricity usage, but you might want to know that only about 1.5 to 2% of all commercially generated electric capacity in the US runs on oil these days. That is down SHARPLY from 15 or 20 years ago. Most is still carbon based fossil fuel, so I get what you are saying. Currently about 50% is from coal, 20% from natural gas (and increasing rapidly, almost all new capacity is simple cycle gas fired turbines) about 19% is nuclear, with the rest being everything else. Hydro-electric is about 7 or 8%; so you can see as of right now all of the other alternative forms, wind, solar etc are not contributing a significant % of our electricity needs. That is likely to change, but it probably won’t be as soon or as dramatically as some people would like or think it should happen. These figures were from 2006, the last year for which I have seen numbers posted. Things have not changed a whole lot since then.

[Carl Russell]

OldKat;10301 wrote:

…….Oh, and BTW: Your point is well taken about electricity usage, but you might want to know that only about 1.5 to 2% of all commercially generated electric capacity in the US runs on oil these days. That is down SHARPLY from 15 or 20 years ago. Most is still carbon based fossil fuel, so I get what you are saying. Currently about 50% is from coal, 20% from natural gas (and increasing rapidly, almost all new capacity is simple cycle gas fired turbines) about 19% is nuclear, with the rest being everything else. Hydro-electric is about 7 or 8%; so you can see as of right now all of the other alternative forms, wind, solar etc are not contributing a significant % of our electricity needs. That is likely to change, but it probably won’t be as soon or as dramatically as some people would like or think it should happen. These figures were from 2006, the last year for which I have seen numbers posted. Things have not changed a whole lot since then.

It won’t ever happen in my mind. Not to the degree some are implying we need. The only way non-petroleum energy will ever sustain us is after we get behind the idea of conservation. As a culture the US wastes significant amounts of electricity just through complacency (leaving air conditioning on in office buildings, city Christmas lights, transmission loss, etc.), but the prices are still so low that people are not motivated, in their personal residences to use only what they need, and to build down to that level.

The biggest problem we face concerning our future energy needs is our habits. We are not going to meet current demand with so-called alternatives(how can energy that is gathered from a natural source be considered alternative?), ever. And as long as pundits argue with that assumption we will waste time. People need to understand conservation, and get behind it, practice it, and reduce our need, then we can consider alternatives.

To me it isn’t just an environmental issue, as much as an economic one. I don’t think that it makes sense to use more energy than is necessary, even if I can afford it. This is not a new concept. I was raised by frugal people, and I think there is a lot of sense in doing without waste.

Carl

[Anonymous]

@Carl Russell 328 wrote:

We lead by example. But what if the example is outside their ability to understand?
For years I have complimented my animal-power with hand tools. I handled tons of hay by hand. I have rolled every log I have cut in twenty-two years with a peavey. I have loaded every load of manure I ever spread by hand with a dung fork. I’ve walked behind or beside my animals for miles, sometimes in deep snow. Around the home, there are many projects that I have purposely chosen because they require my personal, physical involvement.

It is extremely low overhead. I am physically active, engaged with my work and the product, and getting the work done without sending money off the farm to pay for engineering and fabrication costs for machinery. Time, I think is the big problem for most people. There is a conventional wisdom that supposes that we have better things to do. THEY, whoever they are, have done a fantastic job of down-playing our physical capabilities, to a point where most people truly doubt that they can personally accomplish anything physically.

The power of the couch is an interesting point, because as we know a lot of that time is observing professional athletes, pretend superheros, and social servants, running around scoring points, and solving important issues on a moment by moment basis. No wonder people can’t put their own butt into action. They can’t hope to that good.

People regularly challenge me about my choice of human power. They automatically assume that a machine should be employed. Stacking logs is a perfect example. But ingenuity and finesse are huge components in physical power. Whether with draft animals, or with our own bodies, we have to find the point of least resistance. This is perhaps what truly motivates me. I find incredible reward and return from the investment of my intellectual and physical energy.

Another aspect is the relationship to the tool. It goes un-noticed in this throw-away society that I have hand tools that I have used for years and years. The heft of a hay fork, peavey, dung fork, rake, shovel, hoe become significant to me in my endeavors. My familiarity with the tool is integral to my execution of the job. If one breaks or is lost, it is like a loss of a family member. I recover, but I feel the loss physically.

At any rate, human power is a significant resource, and many people are missing out on using a resource that they have direct access to, without the cost of experts and materials. Sadly, I’m not sure that there is going to be an easy transition. I hope that I can help to free some souls by continuing to set the example, but the truth is, I have and will continue to work alone, or with a very small group.

I remember a quote from Edward Abbey, while not exactly to the word, he said that in our endeavor to open peoples eyes to the nature of the physical world, we need to remember the value that we place on it ourselves, and rather than wasting our opportunity trying to convince them, we need to get out there are participate in it. Carl

carl
you are a very interesting person i admire you and hopefully one day our paths will cross and i will get the honor of meeting you thanks mark

[Carl Russell]

Thank you Mark, I really appreciate the connections that are made through this site. I would love to cross paths with all of you.

Carl

[near horse]

Time, I think is the big problem for most people. There is a conventional wisdom that supposes that we have better things to do. THEY, whoever they are, have done a fantastic job of down-playing our physical capabilities, to a point where most people truly doubt that they can personally accomplish anything physically.

Carl

I agree with this point. Your time is truly something that you own – no debt, no one can take it from you without your consent, etc. Economists consider the time you could be spending earning lots of money off the farm as “opportunity costs” and should be weighed against the profit you make from farming (or logging). Oh come on.

Then they head of to their air conditioned gym to expand a hell of a lot of energy on excercises which are 100% inefficient as they don’t create anything at the end…….

Then there are the people who won’t run outside and prefer to run in an air conditioned room on a treadmill, which needs electricity derived from oil to operate. Why can’t they just exercise outside and reduce their carbon foot print?

They need to be running on one of those treadmills that run a PTO or a generator and are still built by the Amish. At least they could produce electricity for the AC they’re using 🙂

I like to hear about it when folks get into their cars and drive to a place where they can then run. What? How about just running there in the first place?

[Gabe Ayers]

Solar power is best and animal power is that somewhat by using the energy collected by plants to power biological creatures that help us met our needs.

Having just spent the last four days beating the snow back so folks can go to work or not have to walk up long drives carrying groceries I am familiar with the “tired” of doing it this way. I love it. The fact that the machines and devices involve my personal presence and participation, even my weight, as well as guidance, steering and leadership with the animals, make this a superior way in my mind and pocket book.

There is something to said for being in a reality (although self created) that animal power is the only way to get something done. This is where I am and where I want to be. It is a great pleasure and wonderful physical, as well as mental, emotional, and as some would suggest spiritual experience. It is a sweet bodily tiredness at the end of the effort, a pleasure to breath hard every day along with my animals. Some folks enjoy using their bodies (endorphins). Some are renewed, strengthened, gifted as a reward, earned by their own sweat. I think this culture is a blessing and enhances the human spirit to be partnered with other living creatures to survive, in fact – thrive.

I get the attachment feature to work so I am going to post some in the gallery of the road grader working in the snow…

Regards, DAP

[Gabe Ayers]

Solar power is best and animal power is that mostly by using the energy collected by plants to power biological creatures that help us met our needs.
Biological power is the original I suppose.

Having just spent the last four days beating the snow back so folks can go to work or not have to walk up long driveways carrying groceries, I am familiar with the “tired” of doing it this way. I love it. The fact that the machines and devices involve my personal presence and participation, even my weight, as well as guidance, steering and leadership with the animals, make this a superior way in my mind and pocket book.

There is something to be said for being in a reality (although self created) that animal power is the only way to get something done. This is where I am and where I want to be. It is a great pleasure and wonderful physical, as well as mental, emotional, and as some would suggest spiritual experience. It is a sweet bodily tiredness at the end of the effort, a pleasure to breath hard every day along with my animals. Some folks enjoy using their bodies (endorphins). Some are renewed, strengthened, gifted as a reward, earned by their own sweat. I think this culture is a blessing and enhances the human spirit to be partnered with other living creatures to survive, in fact – thrive.

I can’t get the attachment feature to work, so I am going to post some in the gallery of the road grader working in the snow…

Regards, DAP

[Author]

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