Oxen and all things -Facebook

[jen judkins]

@Carl Russell 36692 wrote:

This is a great site, but we may have been idling for a while. There is a strong core group here that could take Andy’s comments to heart and use this site more aggressively to develop community, as well as keeping alive the reason we keep coming here, to learn from each other. Some times all we have time for is to read a few posts, and to post or reply to a pertinent thread. If we want to continue to breath fresh life into this forum and the surrounding community, then we may need to stretch a little bit more time, and ramp up the volume, and broaden the content…….

Would you like me to reactivate your administrator privileges?:p

I must say, being the administrator on this sight with the daily tedium of monitoring new members for spam and so forth, has really taken me away from being active in most discussions. I miss that and hope to get back into a more active role, now that my responsibilities of the Board are freed up.

[Andy Carson]

@Carl Russell 36692 wrote:

I also think that pulling and showing, while not usually done by people who are actually working their animals, also serves us well in a larger context. I have no tolerance for competitive showmanship, but I find most draft animal people to have some appreciation for the craft. It isn’t up to us to dismiss the poor examples set by others, it is up to us to set better examples, for the public, as well as for those pullers and showers who may inadvertently be watering down our efforts.

I think of this in much the same way. I have never shown my animals and am not interested in doing so in anything more than in a simple demonstration. My feeling is that show events do not match my training goals precisely, and I would rather focus on aspects that more directly relate my work or (ideally) actually get the work done. My most respected mentors will probably always be people who focus primarily on getting work done. These people may not have a single blue ribbon hanging in thier house or barn.

Still, I have to admit that I have watched oxen at shows and on youtube, and know personally that they can play a useful role in demonstrating what animals can do. I have been to a lot more horse shows than anything else and base most of my opinions about showing from these experiences. In general, I feel that if the competition at a show is strong, there is a natural tendancy to focus on “soft criteria” (general attitutude of teamster/animals, conformation/grooming of teamster animals, familiarity with the practices of the teamster, reputation of the teamster) instead of fundamentals to rank what are all essentially very competant teams. In these situations, I am just as impressed with the yellow ribbon (or similar) as I am with the blue ribbon. Similary, when competition is weak, teams might not even be competant to recieve a blue ribbon. So here the ribbon is means nothing too. My wife used to show at dressage competitions, and they would not only give ribbons, but the judge also filled out a scorecard with individual scores in a number of aspects of riding. These scores were then added up for a total score, which was supposed to conform to an international standard. I liked this system more than a simple ranking system, as it allows participants to know if they are almost as competant as the winner and also allows them to know where and how they need to improve. There was also a general appreciation of this system in that aspect of riding. People would usually ask “how did you score?” rather than “How did you place?” I wonder if a system like this would be able properly recognize teamsters with strong fundamentals in appropriate areas. What do you think, Droverone?

Despite the many downsides of competitive pulling, one of the things I like about it is that there aren’t “soft criteria.” If whoever pulls the most weight wins, than there is room to be creative in the use of training techniques, equipment, breeds, mixes, etc. that might be frowned upon in other areas. Being completely free in how you approach a challenge is exciting to people like me, as you can experiment with practices and techniques and see what works best in an objective way. It sometimes makes traditionalists angry, though, because sometimes a nontraditional practice proves to move more weight. Reguardless of this, though, I think the 2nd and 3rd and 4th place pullers move a lot of weight, and don’t really care if someone got a blue ribbon?

If the goal of participating in shows and competitions is to attract new people, than perhaps it is best to judge success by the number of people you attract to doing real meaningful work with oxen (rather than by who wins). If the goal is to simply get as many blue ribbonsas possible, and obtain the degree of fame that this provides, I think it is missing the point.

[Carl Russell]

Would you like me to reactivate your administrator privileges?:pJennifer Judkins

I didn’t mean to make it sound like I think it should be the administrator, nor that one would need administrator status, just to sort of point out that one person, or a few, can make a site like this more lively by seeding the clouds…… yes it takes time, but if that is one of our objectives it may be worth trying to find that…….. I’ve put in my stint, and I love sitting in the back row……

@Countymouse 36695 wrote:

….., I think the 2nd and 3rd and 4th place pullers move a lot of weight, so who cares if you get the blue ribbon?

If the goal of shows and competitions is to attract new people, than perhaps it is best to judge success by the number of people you attract to doing real meaningful work with oxen. If the goal is to get blue ribbons, or the degree of fame that this provides, I think this is missing the point.

This year at the Tunbridge Fair the free-for-all oxen was a very good class. First place finisher is a man from Vermont who has been pulling oxen for years. His team of full Chianinas were very well mannered, and he was an exceptional gentleman. I know only a small amount about him, but he doesn’t work his cattle per se, due to his professional career, but from what I saw there is little doubt that he could get real work done with them. Second place went to a man I know works his cattle in the woods, and has for years, at least part of the time. He is a hard driving teamster, but ALWAYS puts on a good show, well mannered, direct as a teamster, and places pretty much every time. This man brought this pair of Chi X Charlais oxen to 2009 NEAPFD, and they did a great job of working demos.

The third place, however, went to a young man I have known since he was a young teen with 4H cattle. He drives a truck for a living, but works his Chi X Charlais in the woods regularly. As Andy suggests, in this case from where I sat, his performance far outpaced every other team, oxen or horses, on the fairgrounds this year. Each time he approached the sled he paid very little attention to his team who were walking smoothly and directly. With a minimum of direction they would come around and stand to be hitched. Once hitched, he would ask them to tighten the chain, he would set them up square and ready, and only when he gave them the command did they tear into the load. I really don’t care that he doesn’t work his cattle for a living. I know he aligns himself more with pullers than with DAPNet, but I can assure you that he knows how to apply oxen to draft.

I used to take my Holsteins to the Tunbridge Fair…. it was a great way to get in for free all four days…… but I usually got the blue ribbon in the working class. I tried them in the pulling arena a few times, but my heart was not in it, and we never did well, but people still remark to me about the fact that I am the only teamster they ever saw in the pulling arena who hitched his own cattle….

Meanwhile in the free-for-all ponies, I saw one surge forward, rear up under severe bit pressure, stand on his hind legs, and topple over backward, hitting his head on the steel sled….:eek:

In the 3300 class horses, we saw a horse that apparently needed some more spirit, so the driver’s assistant loosened the bridle so that the animal would see the teamster behind him (meaning there must be some reason the horse would be more inclined to pull harder seeing his driver). It worked, he was pretty wild next hitch. threw himself forward…. oh yeah bridle is loose…. bit falls out….. um….. now how do you hold him back???? Amazing heroes run in from the puller group to save the day….. all the excitement everyone came to see.

In all of this I mean to point out that EVERY person whom I know who knows anything about working animals who saw these displays was well aware of the difference between the show put on by the 3rd place oxen vs. the show in the horse pulls. Of coarse there are many more people in the bleachers who haven’t a clue…… yelling GO while animals are exerting themselves:eek:……. but I don’t think they even know enough to recall the features that I observed. I think it is like a football game to them, the details are beyond their understanding. All they know is that it was exciting, and someone won…..

I don’t get worried about how this reflects on us….. anyone who may join our ranks can clearly see the difference.

Carl

[mitchmaine]

@Countymouse 36695 wrote:

Despite the many downsides of competitive pulling, one of the things I like about it is that there aren’t “soft criteria.” If whoever pulls the most weight wins, than there is room to be creative in the use of training techniques, equipment, breeds, mixes, etc. that might be frowned upon in other areas. Being completely free in how you approach a challenge is exciting to people like me, as you can experiment with practices and techniques and see what works best in an objective way. It sometimes makes traditionalists angry, though, because sometimes a nontraditional practice proves to move more weight. Reguardless of this, though, I think the 2nd and 3rd and 4th place pullers move a lot of weight, and don’t really care if someone got a blue ribbon?

hey andy, some of those creative ideas can be a little hard to accept. when i first started buying horses to go into the woods pulling horses were the only option around here. one horse i had would go crazy if you rattled a chain around him, and break out in a sweat. and break your wrist if you tried hooking him to a log.
feeding a 50 pound bag of grain per day, or sweating a couple hundred pounds off a horse with no water and bundled up in horse blankets on a july day to get a 3200 team into the 2900 class, steroids(yup), drenching your horse with water and jabbing him with a electric cattle prod the minute the evener hits the stoneboat gets them to move quick.
excuse me for mentioning these methods, they are cruel. but the lure of a blue ribbon can make a man do extraordinary things. just saying………

[Kevin Cunningham]

I always wonder about shows and pulls. I have no access to any of the fairs out east and can only compare to what I see at our local 4H shows at the county fair here. I can imagine based upon what I generally see in this country, what the attitude of some people might be like. Some people like to be in the spotlight but most people don’t always want to do the hard work. After all the new American dream is to get rich quick and never work a day in your life, right? What is lacking is the understanding by the general public about how much time goes into the few moment in the ring. I can certainly say that this year when I “showed” my steers for the first time to a group of second graders (a very discriminating crowd), I knew how many hours of work it took for them to stand and move on command flawlessly, but my two minute performance probably was not completely understood because it took so many hours of daily work to get them to that stage.

On the other hand I think a lot of people can see the difference. I have had quite of few people comment on the behaviour of my steers because what they are used to seeing are the few beef steers shown at the fair each year, and those animal are just barely able to be contained by the young handlers. Who knows maybe I might even try and start a working steer 4H group here in CA. We don’t have the tradition of draft the that the NE might have but heck maybe we could pull y’all around the ring.

[Andy Carson]

@Kevin Cunningham 36699 wrote:

…this year when I “showed” my steers for the first time to a group of second graders (a very discriminating crowd), I knew how many hours of work it took for them to stand and move on command flawlessly, but my two minute performance probably was not completely understood because it took so many hours of daily work to get them to that stage.

If the goal of showing is to expose people to draft animal power who may have not thought to ask, you may have just earned the bluest ribbon you can get! Who cares if they don’t completely understand now? The few that are interested will learn. Maybe in time, we will all meet a few here and they can tell a story of when they first saw Kevin’s team on a second grade field trip. I think this kind of work is something to be especially proud of.

[Droverone]

I’m quite concerned about the overall perception and acceptance of the behavior in question and its impact on destiny of the Ox. * Most assuredly Carl’s conceptualized theology about the transition from other aspects into the DAP network is rewarding, I still believe that the tremendous impact the pulling cattle facet of the industry is making on “our” overall perception, 1. Because of the publicity that inhumane treatment receives, and 2. Because people in great numbers,comparable to fair goers, are not searching out farms and wood lots and the newspapers and televisions are not actively searching for good news to print.

I must confess to my own share of flashes of notoriety, *but they are just that, local and low key and I have never searched out any sort of photo recognition or newsworthy accolade. In 25 years of working, farming and (twice) showing oxen I have only gone to events to seek out instruction and validation of techniques applications, I cannot believe that anyone here would condone nor accept the continual, uninterrupted repetitious striking of an animal for the mere purpose of gaining a higher placing. *Additionally I cannot conceive that anyone here, would conceptualized and practice deprivation of nourishment and hydration of themselves or their animals, and the fact that there are “seemingly ethical” participants these competitions, the harsh reality is that these are not the norm……

The norm is harmfully deteriorating the mass, like a gigantic cancer. *There are assuredly great teamsters out there, I am well aware of who they are. *The greats are so few now, that the light of their achievements is now overshadowed by this great problem. *Animal rights activists are taking stands at fairs and pulls actively attempting to stop these events in their tracks. My friendship with fair organizers has led me to this sensitive subject and information. Their activity in government will assuredly lead to restraints of the freedom of choice that we enjoy to own, train and work oxen. Do not doubt this facts inevitability, when they make it illegal in public it will rapidly become illegal in the privacy of your own farm.

It’s disturbing to witness event organizers scold and become visibly disturbed at the sight of more than 1/3 of youth participants use overly harsh and clearly visible violations of the event guidelines for the ethical and humane treatment of their animals. *The saddest part of relating this is that when I inquired about this “trend” I was informed that it was just the way the youths were mimicking what they were seeing occur in the adult classes, or at home……

I am but one and so are each of you, we are here and we are united as such. We are freely exchanging information that is accurate, instructive and insightful. But the purpose of this thread we to make an enlightened perception of what was happening other places on other forums, and thank whomever and all who have made this, forum, possible………

[Carl Russell]

Droverone your concern is legitimate, but I have been accused of holding an inhumane event, just because we had working animals there.

I don’t think that there are specific standards that we can adhere to that can actually separate us. I don’t take care of my animals like those you describe, but there may be things I do, or ask my animals to do, that someone would be offended about. I don’t think there are enough of us draft animal types in the world for us to start pointing fingers at one faction or another.

I personally am just as annoyed with the draft animal enthusiast as I am with the abusive puller, but it does me little good to alienate either. In fact I can find people in these camps that I can relate to, without endorsing the poorest ones.

I prefer to focus on the positive aspects of building community, and helping to broaden people’s minds. I will continue to work to build bridges in all directions.

Carl

[Andy Carson]

Perhaps there is a way to discourage extremely objectionable practices without alienating many people. I still don’t have a good appreciation for the scope and severity of this problem or how clear it is what practices would be deemed “extremely objectionable”… It seems like such a slipperly slope… Perhaps if people are very set in thier tracks, all anyone can do is throw up my hands and walk away. Still, with young or new people who are or might be open to some degree of mentoring, I wonder if more should be done. Sometimes you don’t know what you don’t know. That said, I am unclear on what concrete steps can and should be taken. I am also suspecious that some solutions might create more problems than they solve. Did you have any concrete actions in mind, Droverone?

[Droverone]

Substantial and explicit guidelines that carry enormous disciplinary penalties and event organizers with ethical and morale conviction to enforce them. The best way to cure the problem is to make it monetarily prohibitive for participants to violate the statute.

Alienation is the only action. Diplomacy is admirable and respected, but Carl your forum and actions are exemplary and have, in themselves, set the precedence for others to strive to achieve. In doing this you have exhibited a level of credibility far in excess of anything that would be comparable to the derogredation we are in fear of….

[mitchmaine]

This is a great thread. Seems like after we have all drawn our line in the sand, there are so many lines its hard to find our own.
After posting the other day about the cruelties of electricity use on horses, it dawned on me that I use electricity every day on my horses when I let them out into the pasture. Electric fences are common and highly visable. Most people don’t think twice about it. Its accepted practice. We even might encourage a colt to brush the fence to get him used to it. Shock collars on dogs are an exceptable method of training most places. So electricity has a place in animal training.
I have a friend who pulls horses and uses the same electric fence charger to keep his horses up in the collars while pulling. A brush on the rump and they stay forward and ready to pull. Same charger, but I bet I might have lost a few folks on that one. his wife and kids can rake hay with the same team. And so on down the line to the end guy who indiscriminately abuses his horses with pain to get them to break a load.
When I was looking for mentors, horse loggers, it was 40 or 50 years ago, and those old men were born before the turn of the other century. 1880’s and 90’s. born before computers and youtube or facebook or electricity or tractors or running water. Or horsewisperers. Their talk would always include some horse that tried their patience or threatened their life, and the story would include a hammer or a pipe or a two by four, but somehow they would settle their differences, and the horse was the best they ever owned and lived twenty years and the wife a kids could rake hay with the horse. These were guys from another time or another planet. No tractors. Couldn’t afford another horse. So the horse went to school, end of discussion. Very straight forward matter of fact men, no excuse, it was what it was. And I get it a little bit better now. Anyway, more thoughts. Keep thinking.

[Carl Russell]

@Droverone 36725 wrote:

Substantial and explicit guidelines that carry enormous disciplinary penalties and event organizers with ethical and morale conviction to enforce them. The best way to cure the problem is to make it monetarily prohibitive for participants to violate the statute………

The primary pulling association in our area has strict standards for in the ring. Three hits. They enforce it with strong moral conviction. The judge also enforces a drug policy. This is a self enforced decision that came into being during the last ten years. However it has no authority outside of the ring….. and you know, I’m not going to support that level of policing because I don’t want to invite it upon myself.

I realize that habits die hard, and just a few bad apples can spoil the bunch, but if associations like this one can make these changes, then I think it can spread. The teamsters that consistently bring outlaws into the ring don’t get nearly as much respect from their peers as they think they do.

My story before about the third place cattle had some other aspects to it. When I showed my working oxen at the fair, Mark was a young teen 4Her. He also had a very nice pair of Holsteins. We could not compete against each other because of age, but he was an exceptional teamster and showman, our cattle were pretty even, and we struck up a good friendship. Because I worked my cattle, and didn’t pull them, I was always kind of looked over closely by the puller/show crowd, which he was, and still is, close to. He was always kind of sly about the way he showed appreciation for what I did with mine, and loved to look over logging pictures that I had displayed by the stall.

When I went into the pulling ring with logging cattle, hitched by myself, and walked away from an unsuccessful mediocre load of concrete with my head high, there were a lot of looks that could be described as a mixture of fright and confusion. I guess I may have been too comfortable with my manhood. Anyway, I am sure that he was one who was at least moderately affected by my example. This year after the pull when I visited his stall to voice my appreciation for his cattle and his performance with them he showed me pictures of him logging with them.

Change comes slow. Respect is a fickle fiat. If we want people to change their habits, then we need to show them a different way. And in so doing, we may never change the offenders, but the ones behind them are our real target.

I think that the farmer’s pulls that used to happen when I was very young may be a great way to make some impact. I know it takes a lot of time and effort to pull these kinds of things together, but if working teamsters in local regions could get together every once and a while and put their skills on the line, I think it could be a useful mechanism for building our network, and at the same time setting a better example.

Carl

[Author]

Posts