Parbuckling Logs on a Bobsled

[mink]

using these sleds is there a certain lenght log that works better? i can see a real long tree wouldnt work unless you had a very straight trail.

[Does’ Leap]

For firewood, I generally cut 16′-20′ for my first set of logs that ride on the bunk. The top tier is more flexible because you have a nice bed of logs for support – generally an 8′ minimum. Similar idea for saw logs – I will generally put 16s,18s, and 20s on the bottom tier or combine two logs up to 24′ (2 twelve footers, for example). The top tier tends to be smaller diameter logs which I generally double up and buck once I get to my landing.

George

[Carl Russell]

We need to remember that all long logs are harder to pull than short ones. The advantage that the bobsled gives, reducing friction by lifting the log, has the same relative value for long logs as for short ones. An additional advantage of the bobsled is control, and that has significance for heavy loads, as well as for long logs.

I have moved many long logs, 32′, 38′, 42′, and 50′ ers, and the biggest complication is in uneven ground where the log can belly up on a knob 30 feet behind the team, but this would happen with a log this long without the sled. Really long timbers also usually require parbuckling as well.

2 – 38’ers, and 1 – 42’er

This was a 50′ ridge pole for a custom log home, rolled on by parbuckle with the cattle.

This was a parbuckle we used to roll a huge Red Oak log back up a slope so that we could then parbuckle it onto the bobsled.

You can see that we broke the end of the bunk loading this log….. the first time….. it rolled right off the other side, so we had to “re-parbuckle” it back up…..

Carl

[Baystatetom]

I have been trying to do this more just so I am not as wore out at the end of the day from wrestling logs with a peevy. Last winter I stacked logs on my landing 5 deep this way. I try to get them to a spot where I can have the team at a right angle to the scoot. I really like the idea of setting a snatch block (pulley) so the team stays in the trail and you don’t require such a wide spot. I just love this site for showing me all these little tricks!
~Tom

[Does’ Leap]

I pulled a load of firewood yesterday similar in size to the one in the video. However, my main yarding road was mostly dirt with some snow and the horses were really having to dig deep – something I like to avoid. Since it was firewood, I kept blocking off some of the load along the way so as not to discourage them. Most of my logging is done during the fall and winter and I have little experience with the bobsled on dirt.

Carl, what percentage of winter load do you figure you pull in the summer with your bobsled? I vaguely recall you using a sort of bobsled on wheels, can you remind me of what you used? Seems like if you could design something with wheels lower than your bunk, it might be quite an effective tool when there is no snow.

George

[Carl Russell]

I have used a bunk-cart, but mine had 17″ wheels and I mostly used it for large diameter tree length wood.

John Plowden’s small woods-rig is designed with wheels and runners. It is a common Scandinavian design feature.

I usually figure I move loads on snow and ice that are 1.5-3X as large as I move on dirt. Moving a snow-based load onto dirt can be a real bummer, but generally I find that for short distances of dirt in the mix of snow and ice are not that bad, and can be planned for.

It sounds like the load you had on was probably too big for them given the conditions, but a cord of logs is equal to about about 500 bf….. about 5-6,000 #, probably 2x the horses’ weight. It is also important to realize that long logs on a bobsled put much more weight on the dragging end of the logs, and on dirt it is magnified by extra friction at that point, some 20’+ feet behind the horses. This alone can change the effectiveness of the bobsled, regardless of overall weight. I generally stick with 12-16 foot wood when I am on dirt, placing the long logs as far forward as possible.

It is important to use all of the mechanical advantages that the equipment can provide. While moving long fuelwood logs may help some in production, it is somewhat self-defeating. Taking time to place the weight as far forward as possible, sometimes almost within reach of the rump of the horse, will pay huge dividends. Finding places where starting is easy, and planning ahead for challenging work areas will also pay off.

I have a certain philosophy about having the horses work hard for moving loads. It really is the basis for my competency in logging with horses. It may, or may not, apply to this situation, but I will add it here as your comment about them digging deep made me think of it.

While the idea of going light and often is sound, it doesn’t always address the issue of distance, or challenging terrain. There is no doubt value in having horses that can maintain an easy gait over some distance, but working this way builds a habit in the horses.

I have a landing in my woods that is at the top of a slight rise after a very long and steep downhill. The trail levels out, goes through a waterbar, then rises gently for about 100 feet up to the landing. Given the great advantage of the downhill, I usually arrive at the level with some pretty good sized loads. In this case I have been pinned several times due to mud, or whatever, and have had to unload some to finish….. and by all means it is better to unload than to take the 2-hander to them…… but my objective is to get the wood to the landing.

To do this however, takes reinforcement time and time again. I stop my horses often, where-ever, and when-ever I am working them. I load them heavy, and work them hard for short distances, resting them many times between loading and the landing (ultimately alternating between heavy and light lighter loads). This builds confidence in my asking, and it builds confidence for them that they can start the load, and it builds trust that I will not ask them to wear themselves out. This way when I get into a situation where I need more than they can possibly give, they give it to me…..

Just for example, and I know we all have our own perspectives and objectives, but I never trot my horses into the woods. It may warm them up, and they may seem to enjoy it, but it also builds a sense of habit that they are expected to move quickly, with a light load, over long distances, without rest.

I always stop my horses on an uphill…… never trying to have them make it all the way in one movement. This is true for light and heavy loads. If they can pull it, they can start it, but starting the load is what they need practice with. It is a natural reaction to try to keep them going once they are underway, but it truly is counterproductive to the challenges of moving weight with horses on varying terrain.

The biggest factor, other than conditioning, to moving heavy loads, is air. It has been shown that horses working hard, whether lifting heavy weights or running hard in races, will often exert their fiercest energy without breathing. This is a natural instinct, but the person asking them to work like that must be aware of it, and reward them for it. Stopping them may break momentum, but it gains by reinforcing trust, and allowing the horses to prepare for another blast……

In this way, those places in the skid-trail where an anomaly can create a challenge can be planned for, working relatively easily for most of the trip, but digging into the depths of their asses for that short section.

Carl

[Tim Harrigan]

@Carl Russell 39242 wrote:

I usually figure I move loads on snow and ice that are 1.5-3X as large as I move on dirt. Moving a snow-based load onto dirt can be a real bummer, but generally I find that for short distances of dirt in the mix of snow and ice are not that bad, and can be planned for.

It sounds like the load you had on was probably too big for them given the conditions, but a cord of logs is equal to about about 500 bf….. about 5-6,000 #, probably 2x the horses’ weight. It is also important to realize that long logs on a bobsled put much more weight on the dragging end of the logs, and on dirt it is magnified by extra friction at that point, some 20’+ feet behind the horses. This alone can change the effectiveness of the bobsled, regardless of overall weight. I generally stick with 12-16 foot wood when I am on dirt, placing the long logs as far forward as possible.

It is important to use all of the mechanical advantages that the equipment can provide. While moving long fuelwood logs may help some in production, it is somewhat self-defeating. Taking time to place the weight as far forward as possible, sometimes almost within reach of the rump of the horse, will pay huge dividends. Finding places where starting is easy, and planning ahead for challenging work areas will also pay off.

I have a certain philosophy about having the horses work hard for moving loads. It really is the basis for my competency in logging with horses. It may, or may not, apply to this situation, but I will add it here as your comment about them digging deep made me think of it.

Carl

Great description of your thinking and approach, Carl. It is important to remember that on snow, starting the load is the real challenge. Once it gets moving and you develop some momentum the draft drops off remarkably as long as you are not dragging anything, or at least not too much. On a lot of snow the runners seem to bond with the snow after they sit for a while and the instantaneous pulling force needed to break that bond on snow can be almost as great as on bare ground. That is why you can gain so much in building the confidence of your team by really being attentive to helping them start the load. Because I am working single with Will now this is always in the front of my mind. The starting, the distance, where I stop, etc. I always look for the top of a swale or something to give a downhill tilt to the start if I can. Sometimes I pull up on a small stem before loading to allow a start on that hard surface with minimal ground contact. It makes a big difference when you are asking for a big effort. I really think these efforts help your team and the benefits accumulate throughout the day. I continue to be amazed by, and grateful for, the effort that Will will give when I ask. Being attentive to what I ask of him and how I ask for the least amount of effort needed is how I demonstrate and express my gratitude for his effort and respect.

Carl mentioned the dragging ends and that is really important as well. I think of dragging ends as pulling a tillage tool on bare ground, or plowing snow, in addition to drawing the sled. I mainly use a log boat and pull 12′ to 16′. My boat carries the logs about 4″ off the ground as long as they are straight. I always make an effort to turn a crooked stem up at the end to avoid dragging because it really impacts draft. Of course, as Carl mentioned, when those 16′ hang off the back of my 8′ boat their are plenty of opportunities hang those ends so helps to be observant of the skid path. When I had Abe I would often ground skid, but now with Will working alone I only ground skid small stems.

My mechanical advantage skidding on bare ground with a log boat with no log/ground contact is about the same as with a log arch with the front hanging and the butt dragging with the same load. Both are much better than ground skidding if you have limited power for the task and you value conserving the energy of your team.

I think Carl’s loading rule of thumb for snow versus bare ground is good, but the crux of his story is that the devil is in the details. If you just load up that way without thinking about the details you might be disappointed. And starting the load is a big detail often overlooked. I love working with animals in the woods because every load, every situation is an opportunity to learn and demonstrate your respect for your team, and they to demonstrate their respect for you. It is a game for thinkers, if you choose to play it that way. I am so grateful to have the opportunity to work with animals in the woods.

[Tim Harrigan]

This discussion of starting in the snow reminded me of this earlier discussion of draft buffers.

http://www.draftanimalpower.com/showthread.php?2972-Draft-buffers/page2

In post #149 I attached a graph showing measured draft of a 1000 lb sled on snow. The starting draft spike the lasted for a second or two was over 600 lbs but the continuous force needed to keep it moving after starting was only about 80 pounds force. Interesting and I think surprising results.

[Anonymous]

@Tim Harrigan 39250 wrote:

…..On a lot of snow the runners seem to bond with the snow after they sit for a while and the instantaneous pulling force needed to break that bond on snow can be almost as great as on bare ground…

Carl can correct me if I am wrong, but the benefit to runners, specifically metal runners in the snow would be similar to how ice skates work, in that the friction from the runner on the snow melts the snow forming a small amount of liquid which decreases the resistance, creating the advantage. When the forward movement is stopped the liquid refreezes as the heat generated during movement quickly dissipates at rest and essentially freezes the runner to the snow. Depending on the length of the runner this can present a sizable bond that would need to be broken to begin forward movement.

I may be stating the obvious here, I apologize if this has been previously discussed.

John

[Does’ Leap]

Hey Carl:

I practice most of what you write b/c I have been reading and learning from your posts for several years now. I expect moderate to relatively heavy exertion from my horses and reward them with frequent, often brief, rests before they need it. I ask for the ultimate effort in tight spots and starting heavy loads and they give it to me readily. These loads for my unshod horses are generally in the 1-1.2 chord range or 700-800 ft. for sawlogs.

Another factor with the aforementioned load (aside from my underestimating the amount of dirt vs. snow on my road) was a 19″ DBH x 16′ soft maple. I generally aim for the butt of the log to slightly ahead of the roll. When I parbuckled this log on it had slipped back midway between the roll and the bunk. When I hooked on the butt of the log to move it forward, I dragged the sled along with it. It also slightly forked at the small end and I could watch the “tillage” as I rode my sled. You mentioned long fuel wood as being potentially self defeating – what is standard for you?

I respectfully disagree with the trotting. I trot my horses frequently if they are not pulling a load as long as they are fresh (not beat) and if I initiate the change in pace. When they want to pick up a trot, I ask for a walk. I don’t think it builds the habit of moving quickly over long distances with light loads simply b/c I expect them to shift gears when they are under a load. The habit I cultivate in my horses is that they look to me for direction under all conditions of changing terrain, loads, conditions and gaits.

@Tim Harrigan 39250 wrote:

It is a game for thinkers, if you choose to play it that way. I am so grateful to have the opportunity to work with animals in the woods.

Here, here.

George

[Carl Russell]

@Does’ Leap 39281 wrote:

… I don’t think it builds the habit of moving quickly over long distances with light loads simply b/c I expect them to shift gears when they are under a load. The habit I cultivate in my horses is that they look to me for direction under all conditions of changing terrain, loads, conditions and gaits…..

I can see that point, and when put that way, makes sense. I was taught that a working horse is a walking horse, and I stick to that. The main thing is, to do as you do, and lead them into your desired exertion.

I guess I just misinterpreted your comment

However, my main yarding road was mostly dirt with some snow and the horses were really having to dig deep – something I like to avoid.

When cutting wood to sell on trucks, most folks want 20-24′ wood, so that can be problematic with a sled, but it still gives that advantage we have been pointing out. I guess if I was faced with having to move long wood, and having to deal with limiting factors in my road way I would just load accordingly.

For my own wood I figure anything 12-16 feet. I usually have a good header so I can go up with the load instead of long. Short logs piled high give much better advantage than the same weight in long logs. That goes back to skid-trail lay-out. Finding the best loading area will pay dividends.

Part of successfully using animal power is being realistic about the production. The costs of the animals are so low that we can make up for short-comings by working around them. For example, I wonder how much you gain or lose by skidding, loading, burning horse calories, and then whatever system you choose to go back and pick up your blocked off wood. My instinct would be that you would do better to put on loads that they can get all the way home. That may mean smaller loads. It could mean loading shorter logs, and finding an area where you have better uphill advantage for rolling logs on. Having an area where you can skid in long logs, and cut them in half to load without moving them again can really be advantageous. It could also mean shoeing during the winter to improve traction. There are so many factors to pull together, that no combination is right or wrong.

One of my mentors used to say, “It’s not the size of the load they haul, it’s how many loads made it to the landing”. Improving handling and improving loading will have more positive affect on this than just about anything. If it is easy and quick to load, then there is less tendency to freight it.

A lot of these decisions come after a challenge or two. I bet the load moves better when those areas of dirt are frozen later this week.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Here is a pic of a page from the book that Andy just posted about logging

http://www.draftanimalpower.com/showthread.php?6120-Logging-The-Principles-and-General-Methods-of-Operation-in-the-United-States

Carl

[horsemedic47]

Didn’t see a video

[Tim Harrigan]

@horsemedic47 39339 wrote:

Didn’t see a video

That’s good. There is no video.

[Carl Russell]

@horsemedic47 39339 wrote:

Didn’t see a video

There is one in the first post from George.

Carl

[Author]

Posts