safety issues

[Does’ Leap]

@goodcompanion 601 wrote:

I don’t have stocks, so I decided to try an old-timey trick of tying up his foot.

Our horses were also worked in stocks and I don’t have any. I also want to be able to pick up my horses feet. Our dominant horse accepted us picking up his feet pretty readily. The other horse did not. I work this horse in the round pen, make him stop, approach and praise him, and proceed to pick up his feet. If he moves away I trot him around for a couple of laps and try again. It worked! We can pick up all his feet now, untied, without him moving. The next step is out of the pen.

[Does’ Leap]

@Jean 602 wrote:

My only concern with round pens, is are they large enough for the bigger horses?

Jean

Our pen is 50 feet in diameter made with 8 posts, two strands of poly tape, and lots of electricity. I didn’t have the time to construct a true woden round pen and this is working well (our horses were already well trained, but young). This size has worked well altough seemed a little small when a horse gets agressive.

[Kristin]

Such great responses here. I especially enjoyed the various opinions on bits. It’s interesting to note that the runaway that caused my broken hand happened on a day when the team was tired, and so I’d put the lines on the curb position on our slower horse instead of one notch down. I was spreading manure, the slow horse spooked and without the leverage (and because the spreader has an awful seat with nothing to brace against) I couldn’t stop him and the situation got out of hand very fast. The lesson was that the slow horse was also the more reactive, less trustworthy horse. I shouldn’t have moved the lines up on him while doing something as potentially freaky as spreading. Our other team has never shown an inclination to run. They go on mild jointed snaffles and freaky things tend to make them stop instead of go, which is a much nicer option. At the Tunbridge event Lynn Miller said something like ‘I don’t want to know that I trust my horses, I want to trust that I know my horses.’ I have thought about that a lot since then.

all best,
Kristin

[Carl Russell]

I say, since this is my initiative, I am the one who is responsible for being trustworthy, not the animal. We can waste a lot of time and energy trying to get others to gain our trust, like our trust would be a reward that would mean something to them. Animals, and human animals, will respond positively when you show that you are trustworthy. That gesture is a true reward.

Not trusting an animal does not have to be the same as distrusting them. By not trusting them, you are not allowing yourself the complacency that can lead to misunderstanding, and miscommunication. Working with animals is often characterized as a partnership. It needs to be a partnership where we are the responsible trustworthy initiator.

Carl

[Donn Hewes]

Hi everone, Carl, I like what you say about trust. It worked great until something happened. Responsibility and knowing your work/animals (nod to plowboy) is a much better thing to focus on.
About round pens, they can be very useful tools and I will mention a few of the ways I have used them. I will also suggest some limitations. With an experienced teamster the round pen is one way (not the only) to start the working relationship with the totally green horse. Without going into great detail, the round pen provides the animal with a limited amount of freedom in which to make choices. The trainer’s role is to control the situation such that the animal is confronted with choices, rewarded for making the right choices, and corrected for making the wrong choices. While this may sound very simple it is not. Because you are working with so few props or tools this process is entirely dependent on your ability to read the animal.
For an animal that has had their foundation training started but may need further training, or a supposedly trained horse that is new to you, a round pen may be useful but is by no means essential. I do a lot of work on a limestone pad between two barns where the paddock is completed by single electric poly wire. This is useful for certain kinds of training where I am not pushing the animal away so hard, and because these animals spend a lot of time in this paddock they respect it as a barrier. Some round pen practices can be done in a small pasture if you can keep the animal’s attention.
Whether in a round pen or not there is a lot to be said for training an animal that is unrestrained (in a limited area). This is the best way to teach them to pick up their foot (start with a rope under the pastern), roping out, sacking out, harnessing, etc. It reinforces for them, and you, that there is acceptance involved in what we are doing. This kind of work usually follows other work that prepares them for what you are asking for.
Many times I have seen or heard of someone going to the round pen because ‘they’ were not sure how to proceed. At least it seemed safe. There are a couple of problems with this. First, if a horse is trained and ready to work they will be skeptical of your low expectations, and they may sense you’re not leading the team. Every new team for you (no matter how well trained by someone else), no matter who the teamster is will question who is going to lead, some do it politely, others less so. You must convey your ability and intention to lead from the out set. Second, the round pen is a place for training horses, but not teamsters. If you take a good horse into a round pen and fail to recognize the cues they are sending, (ie. acceptance or defiance) and fail to respond appropriately you are confusing the animal and potentially damaging their training.
I have some more questions about logging and workshops but I will save them for another post. Donn

[Carl Russell]

I have never use a lever bit so I have some questions. I have always assumed that they were developed for multiple hitches, where holding eight (or more) horses would make for a lot of line pressure. To reduce that and to maintain adequate mouth pressure for control the bit was developed to provide the leverage reduction.

That being my understanding (right or wrong), I assume that the use of lever bits is more about reducing line pressure than reducing mouth pressure as the teamster always has some leverage advantage over the horses mouth.

This may or may not be bad, but my objective with line pressure is to come to a one-on-one pressure/release relationship with the horse. I acknowledge that it can be a lot of effort sometimes to present adequate pressure to a learning horse, but with a straight bit I feel the very slightest acceptance, and therefore I can provide an immediate release/reward that matches exactly what I feel in my hands.

I’m curious if this can be accomplished with the lever bit? Is there ever a time when the lever bit is replaced?

I guess my questions rise from talk that I have heard from people who seem to subscribe to the conquer and control point of view, and promote the lever bit as perfect for this.

That is not what I have read here, but I think that it is important that we make sure that the teamster craft rises to the level of subtlety it requires. Carl

[Donn Hewes]

Carl, I wil relate my most recent experiences, but I think Jason has a hundred times the experience with this. I am still thinking a lot about what he said. My newest trainee is on a staight bar bit at the moment so I haven’t changed everything I do overnight.
I drove a team of mules today that were bitted down. The young one to the middle of the bit, and the 12 year old on the bottom of the bit. This 12 year old mule has given me problems off and on since I got her 2 years ago. She has also had times when she worked great. She was bitted down when I first got her and my first reaction was is that really neccessary? What I realize now is that “neccessary” was not really the right question. It implied that there was something wrong with it (harsh bit?). The real question was is it working? How was it working? Could the mule and the teamster use it to comunicate effectively.
What I saw today, and have been discovering for the last couple of months (with Jason’s help), is she works great this way. She will drop her head and relax, she lightens up on the lines to the extent that she is not pulling on her chin and the bit is not harsh because she accepts it. Her response to my signals for turning, stoping, and fanning are smooth and precise because she is listening, but relaxed. It maybe just her history and how she was trained – Someone else with more training skill or more time may have changed it but I shouldn’t have. The fact that this bit helps her relax is the most intriguing part for me. Donn

[Plowboy]

Currently 5 of our working horses are using a smooth ring snaffle, and 2 are using a double twisted wire bit. All work on a light line [soft mouthed] which makes driving them easier and more enjoyable for everyone involved. I have seen horses broke on a tight line that would make your arms ache. We do own two sets of lever bits and have used them on and off for different reasons. I used them last fall plowing a patch of heavy sod with a walking plow and they worked good to maintain slow speed without much line pressure. Personally I am hesitant to overbit because at times I think it may make them hard mouthed but I may be wrong. We start calm colts on a smooth snaffle and often they have them forever. I am sure Lever bits are necessary as in Donn’s case but it may be possible for inexperienced folks to put too much faith in the bit alone. We assess each horse and adjust equipment to fit their particular needs.

[Carl Russell]

Donn, in a way your response gets at the heart of my question. In the situation that you describe, as well as Kristin’s description of her run-away, it seems as though the animal is under control with a certain degree of leverage, but can’t remain a relaxed worker when the pressure is reduced.

My intent with the bit is to have a back and forth pressure/release “conversation” with my horse. Using bit pressure to elicit response from the horse, and reward or correction with corresponding subtle changes in line pressure, the horse learns to depend on, and trust that connection/conversation.

It seems to me at a certain point the lever bit says “end of conversation”! So when the lever bit is changed or removed, the horse has developed a habit, but not an understanding, and challenges the new situation, back to where the conversation stopped.

Every situation is different. This is why it is a craft, we all can make judgments and adjustments. We find what works for us. From my perspective I really only know what I experience, and I know that I can’t truly appreciate your experiences. I am just curious, because bits tend to be a common topic, with so many choices, that I want to broaden my understanding. Carl

[Donn Hewes]

Carl and Plowboy, I think you are right that there is a limit to how well we can (or I can) describe these things. Experience and seeing and feeling are far more useful for things like this. On the other hand this is how we can get new ideas, new ways of looking at what we are doing, things to try or think about. Haveing said that I would like to reiterate an observation I made yesterday. Prior to a few months ago I would have assumed, as I think you both do, that the animal bitted down is working under some pressure that can’t be released with out looseing control. This is not the case with this mule. This is not to say I won’t have problems with her in the future or that the bit is a cure all. Only that her response to it is interesting. Rather than think this must be wrong because of what I had trained myself to believe about the bit, I am looking at her and feeling what I get from the lines and knowing what I am after, find this is working.
I would not suggest you go out and change all your bits, but that my recent experiences have added a bit to my tool box. I would think it is much the same with a twisted wire bit. In the wrong hands, or on the wrong horses many would say that is a harse bit. In the past I would have felt the same. If I saw one in use today I would look at it more closely to see how the horse and teamster could use it to communicate. what were the results. donn

[Plowboy]

Like one old timer told me about wire bits, ” They don’t have to hog into it any harder than they want to”. One mare is just a little bullheaded once in a while and the other was crazy from some things she’d been through before we got her at 5 which is a little old for ease of retraining. They train best from birth and pretty good at 2 or 3 but after that they begin to become set in their ways. Donn I wasn’t meaning any disrespect to you in any way. You’re right it is a craft and there are many methods to achieve success and the diversity of info is interesting and we can all learn a thing or two each day from a team or from another teamster if we pay attention. Sadly in our area at 30 I am one of the youngest active teamsters and many are at the other side of the spectrum near retirement. Luckily I have absorbed as much as I could from them and still do each time I am around them.

[Anonymous]

Kristin,

stepping into a yellow jacket nest is a hard one to prevent, I’ll agree.
There’s a lot of great experience shared already, but I’ll add a couple bits I’ve found helpful. Though it was hard, for me, starting out to take time for safety and maintenance when there were (and still are) a lot of production pressures on the farm, I will say that taking time ultimately saves time.
A couple of specific examples: the other day I took out the mower to mow some raspberry canes. The mower had recently had some new sections put on and was a little chattery. My gelding was getting tense about the noise. Instead of clamping down on him and getting my task completed, I completely abandoned my goal of getting the pruning done. I took up a new goal for that moment of getting my horse to relax with the noise of the mower. We spent about twenty minutes touring a nearby hayfield. Mower in gear, mower out of gear, in gear, out of gear. Any time I find the horses are traveling faster than I like and not readily responding to my “walk” command, I simply stop, whoa, that is. And I will wait a while, then start again. Stop again if necessary, for however long it takes. The message I am trying to get across is that the fastest way to get any where is to slow down!
Another area to take time with is equipment. There really shouldn’t be any accidents related to equipment failure (save the completely unforeseeable), because equipment safety is up to us. I cannot say that every implement I own runs like brand new, but we do take time to inspect every implement, and do the maintenance and repairs regularly. To facilitate this I’ve made a maintenance schedule for every implement, harness, piece of hitch gear, etc. on the farm. It has every task that ought to be done, or part that ought to be checked, with calendar dates for each to be completed. Though it sometimes can seem expensive to keep things in good running order, I believe it is more expensive to break and replace them and definitely more expensive to have an accident as a result of poor maintenance.

safe travels, David

[Kristin]

Thanks for your thoughts on prevention, David. I just took a team out on the mower for their first mowing of the season and we did a lot of starting and stopping until they relaxed. I love this team.

A question we’re still wrestling (arguing) over here at my house is whether you should bit for 99.9% of the situations or the .1% of surprises, like that old yellowjacket nest. Mark worries that in that rare surprise situation, I won’t have the physical power to get control of a spooked team without leverage. I tend to think that using too much bit on soft-mouthed horses will create more problems and dangers than it solves, and also make the work less enjoyable for everyone. But I admit that I’m the one who has had a wreck, and I also know that I don’t have the strength or ballast that Mark has and maybe there are situations when that extra strength might be the diffusing factor.

I hope I’m not beating…er… going over ground that’s already been thoroughly covered. I guess my question now is, is physical strength relevant to the choice of bit? Would you choose a different bit if you were a small woman vs a big burley man? Or, maybe: are you bitting for the horse, or the teamster?

-Kristin

[Carl Russell]

I’m a big burley man, so I can’t evaluate your situation, but I am a firm believer in subtle messages. I am also a firm believer in establishing through the bit a communication system that will prevail through surprises. I have a lot of strength when I need it, but I use it more for stamina than for bruteness. The art is about subtly. Even with a “harsh bit” subtly will have to play in to it. Taking the time to do light, unsophisticated, and purely training type work will be as important as the harshness of the bit.
The difficulty of these undertakings is that they are personal, and we each have our own perspective, which is hard not to project onto others. I only mean to describe my own preference, I am willing to let others work it out for themselves. The more you work a certain way, the more solutions you’ll bring to it. Carl

[Donn Hewes]

To me slack line driving a revelation. It allows for a farmer to work animals all day with out burning forearms, it allows an animal to relax in their work, and it allows for any amount of ‘bitting down’ that you feel is appropriate for safety.

What do I mean when I say slack line driving? Lynn Miller describes perfect line pressure this way. Take two gate handles (plastic handles with the springs inside) and attach them to a fence. Attach single lines and stand back at the end of the lines; pick up the lines until the springs are being stretched, now back off until the lines stay up but you are no longer stretching the spring. I seek the same point of contact with the animal’s mouths but I get there in reverse. Pick up the lines until I make contact with the springs but don’t stretch them and err on the side of slack, (a slight belly in the lines).

Using this method of driving, you can drive a team that needs no bitting down at all, and bitting them down will not effect how they drive. You are not adding any pressure. It is like adding a safety feature – to be used in an emergency only. Here are a few pictures I took while spreading compost. I was by myself so the pictures aren’t perfect. The spreader is engaged while the pictures are being taken. Try to see the line pressure I am using. This doesn’t mean that when a large bolder goes through the almost empty spreader one of these mules won’t throw her head up. But her energy comes from a starting point that is already more relaxed. I have an opportunity to support her with voice and lines and encourage her back to slack lines again; her reactions to the spreader are less dramatic. It would be useful to realize that when I first got these mules I drove them with a fair amount of line pressure all the time. The one on the left is a pretty high strung mule and they are not a beginner’s team. Both animals are bitted down in these pictures. This method of driving them is improving them.

I am calling it slack line driving to draw attention to what I am doing different. In reality, driving with Very light pressure represents perfect application of this technique. Donn

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