safety issues

[Carl Russell]

Carl Russell;713 wrote:

I have never use a lever bit so I have some questions. I have always assumed that they were developed for multiple hitches, where holding eight (or more) horses would make for a lot of line pressure. To reduce that and to maintain adequate mouth pressure for control the bit was developed to provide the leverage reduction.

That being my understanding (right or wrong), I assume that the use of lever bits is more about reducing line pressure than reducing mouth pressure as the teamster always has some leverage advantage over the horses mouth.

This may or may not be bad, but my objective with line pressure is to come to a one-on-one pressure/release relationship with the horse. I acknowledge that it can be a lot of effort sometimes to present adequate pressure to a learning horse, but with a straight bit I feel the very slightest acceptance, and therefore I can provide an immediate release/reward that matches exactly what I feel in my hands.

I’m curious if this can be accomplished with the lever bit? Is there ever a time when the lever bit is replaced?

I guess my questions rise from talk that I have heard from people who seem to subscribe to the conquer and control point of view, and promote the lever bit as perfect for this.

That is not what I have read here, but I think that it is important that we make sure that the teamster craft rises to the level of subtlety it requires. Carl

So armed with this lingering question, and facing a reasonably priced pair of Liverpool bits this fall at NEAPFD, I decided to buy them and give them a try…

I have been having a trial with my mare because she is so ambitious she often puts a lot of pressure on the bit, which is not so much a problem for me directly, but is indirectly because the line pressure tends to be too much for my gelding. This tend to be exacerbated when pulling as she is so hot off the mark, that she usually sits him back of the evener, which basically breaks his spirit.

I have been very pleased with the results of using the Liverpool bit, setting her down one hole, and leaving him set even. It has made thing much more comfortable for me, given her a much clearer message of what too much bit pressure is, and helped the gelding to become more confident because she is not so inclined to dive forward.

I always thought the lever bit was a pain-maker, because that is how it was described to me by people who wanted to drive their horses that way, but thanks to you folks, I was able to see the subtlety, and I’m very pleased with my findings.

Thanks, Carl

[Does’ Leap]

Carl, glad to hear you found a place for the lever bit. One of our geldings was like your mare. He would get all amped up and pressure the bit especially when logging. We set him down a notch lower than our other gelding and eventually cured him of this tendency. He still gets amped up when pulling, but he doesn’t pressure the bit unduely and stands well. We run them both on 1 notch below the snaffle ring with a lose curb chain now.

George

[Donn Hewes]

George, A curb chain should be loose enough to slip a couple fingers in, but if it is too loose it will reach down to the soft flesh of the chin. It is annoying and might cause a sore right there.

Carl. That sounds great, Are the bits you bought broken snaffle or straight bar? You are almost ready for “no pressure” driving!

[jac]

We use the military bit which buckles the lines behind the horses mouth. Same basic idea as the liverpool. Donn I read your article in the SFJ and it works well….
John

[Gabe Ayers]

For me the lever vs. friction bit – is a matter of having power steering or manual. I wouldn’t be working horses at this age without lever bit in my tool box. Not necessary on all horses but definitely refines the signaling on others.

Jason

[dominiquer60]

Carl- This answers the question that I had been meaning to ask you all weekend, but of course forgot. I am glad that they are working so well for you.

“Is there ever a time when the lever bit is replaced?”

When I used to show pleasure horses I usually rode my friends mare in a nice snaffle and most days she did great. But some days she just needed a little more something to keep her attention. I had a real short shanked jointed pelham (leverage bit like a jointed liverpool). I would ride her at home in this occasionally for a tune-up and have it in the trailer just in case. One day at a fair there were harness racing horses and demo derby cars, but perhaps being a mare was the most distracting part of all. I hung that pelham in her mouth and she was suddenly all business with out any public training or ugliness. We won enough to pay our entry fees and fuel, all with hardly any rein pressure. The next week a snaffle got the job done just as well.

The nice thing about the liverpool is that you can have the lines set straight on, but if you need a little more control than you can drop the lines down at anytime. Like wise if leverage becomes an issue you can return to the top ring, all with out changing bridles or bits.

It is certainly a nice adjustable tool to have on hand.

Erika

[Carl Russell]

These bits are straight bar bits. I really like being able to keep the lines adjusted where I want them.

As far as no pressure driving, we usually work our way to that, but now it is much faster as she comes up against the rigid edge of the “sweet spot” more succinctly, which is displayed by her with obvious expressions of understanding and acceptance, which translates to a more comfortable carriage, and a more cooperative relationship with the gelding.

Carl

[Andy Carson]

There are definately more experienced horsemen on this site, but I feel like I ought to post my opinion here as well. For me, a lever bit is something that a horse must “earn” by not repeatedly not responding to a snaffle reguardless of how I use it. I have tried a military elbow once when my horse was fresh and ambitious and it was certainly not the answer for me and this horse in this situation. I can certainly imagine situations where they would be useful but I personally have never had a use for them with the small number of horses I have driven. For me, I feel that the leverage turns subtile signals into a slow, binary “on vs off” signals that I find limiting in expressing just what I want. Alot of my opinions on this issue are strongly biased by that I only have much experience driving a single. Obviously, all the force is isolated on one horse here and I am sure that is helpful. I also expect higher degrees of manueverability and responsiveness out of a single and find the leverage slows and obscures my communication to some extent. In the absence of leverage, there are other tricks that one can use when they run thought a nest of yellowjackets. A very useful trick that I use when a horse tries to brace against the bit and pull through it is to message (or saw) the bit back and forth through the horses mouth. It’s a small movement of only an inch of so back and forth, but it really magnifies the pressure that is exerted and (in my more limited experience) is all I need for those “Oh Sh*t” moments.

[Carl Russell]

Andy, I agree that when working single I never had a problem with the subtle control I expect in working, or emergency situations. The condition for me was the different behavior between the horses when working together. My efforts to work the sweet spot with the mare were not isolated from the gelding, and he reacts much more negatively. This way I can with a modicum of line pressure at my hands, exert differing levels of bit pressure on individual horses, which in fact increases the subtleness(?) of the message…. in terms favorable to each individual.

I have to say, that my mare was so used to forging ahead on her own, that the first couple of times I used it, she was quite set-back. She really didn’t like the fact that there was such a powerful resistance on the bit… that wasn’t there before…. One big difference for me was that pressure required much less effort from me, and because it was so effective I was able to be more magnanimous and gentle with her. Once she tried a few times she could feel it too, and soon became comfortable and responsive.

I have not used it with her single yet, and am not sure that I will, but I haven’t used a jointed bit in a long time anyway, so at the very least I can hook her even and basically have the straight bit I prefer.

As far as safety, I’m not sure it has changed things. As I said before my working safety philosophy is not based soley on bit design. I just reentered this thread because I knew we had extended discussion here about these bits, and I had pretty much the same opinion that Andy is expressing…. although I had less personal experience to back it up. Currently, my experience is pleasantly opening my mind.

Carl

[Andy Carson]

Good point Carl, I can totally see how these adjustable bits would be really well suited to “feathering” bit pressure so that it is appropriate for horses of different temperments working in a team. Perhaps if and when I use a team I will be revisiting this issue…

[near horse]

@Donn Hewes 22241 wrote:

Carl. That sounds great, Are the bits you bought broken snaffle or straight bar? You are almost ready for “no pressure” driving!

I’m looking at going the “liverpool” route myself and am wondering if the broken snaffle allows some of the “finesse” that Andy speaks of while still having the benefits of a levered bit.

In other words – pros/cons of these 2 types of leverage bits.

[mitchmaine]

I bought a pair of mares once that came with harness. And parade bits, a pair of liverpools. The guy said “she (near horse) really needs these bits”. No way was I gonna have bits like that on my hosses, so I grabbed another pair of bridles with snaffle bits and ten minutes later, my sulky plow and the front end of my truck were stove to pieces (no exaggeration). So I put her bit in and went out to war with her and she was instantly, the miracle horse from heaven. Third slot and she wouldn’t move, second slot and she went beautiful, first slot and she pulled at you, and hooked up to the bits you had your hands full, she was all lathered up, and the job you were doing didn’t turn out so well. Her mate, star, was loose and went where she went at the same speed, but jenny was always hooked into the 2nd slot. And life was good, and they stayed and worked til they died here. And now all my bridles have those bits. Hooked at the bit, its just a straight bit with no leverage on the chain, and quite mild. Add some leverage and it’s a different tool. I think it helps with trying to learn line tension. No one can learn line tension with a ton horse pulling you faster than you can walk. You dial up the pressure til you control the horse and you drive with your fingertips, not with arms three inches longer.
I’m not trying to sell a new religion, don’t even care what you choose for your own harness, all I’m saying is when you look your gift horse in the mouth and she has a callous in the corner of her mouth, you might want to try one of these bits and harness up away from the pickup.
Best o’ luck and happy thanksgiving to everyone, mitch

[Big Horses]

We use liverpool bits. It’s nice to have that “extra brakes” available in case you need ’em. Remember, just because they’re there, doesn’t mean you have to take advantage of them all the time! Some people are so “ham handed” that they can screw up a horse no matter what they use…others can run liverpools or Buxtons, and have no problems with a tender mouth horse at all…. I was always taught to only use the amount of pressure I had to, to get the results I wanted. We usually hook ‘straight up’ or maybe dropped one hole…but the main thing is that we’re not using any more pressure than needed for the result expected. Everything is relative…input to outcome.. that’s what makes a good horseman…being able to read that and not overdo it.
John

[jac]

One slight disadvantage with liverpools over the military bit is when they are used with a team.. the cross checks tend to pull the circle into the inside of the jaw. I got some stainless wire in the mig welder and fixed the inside port solid. Then I got the military bits which dont have the big circles of the liverpool… In the days of the royal mail stage coach in Britain the bottom slot on a 3 slot liverpool was known as “the duffers hole”…. A book written by Max Pape of Germany in the 1930s on coach driving maintained that the cross checks should be buckled to the shank which stopped the bit being twisted into the jaw…
John

[near horse]

Straight/solid bar or jointed? Is there a benefit of one of those over the other?

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