seeding

[Tim Harrigan]

near horse;21135 wrote:

Tim – how about the value of slurry seeding to over seed a standing pasture or grass stand? The big concern w/ over seeding (I thought) was getting good soil/seed contact

We have done it a few times, the work we followed most closely was slurry seeding red clover and orchard grass into brome grass hay. We no-till drilled, frost seeded and slurry seeded red clover in the brome. The hay ground that had red clover seeded yielded two times more over the following two years than the hay that had no clover or manure applied. The no-till and slurry-seeded red clover yielded about the same, the frost seeded red clover yielded midway between the slurry-seeded and no clover/no manure. The seeding increased both botanical diversity and yield. The yield increase was mostly from the added N from the clover. The orchard grass seeding increased botanical diversity but did not have much effect on yield.

You need seed to soil contact when overseeding, it does not seem like you need aggressive tillage to get it.

With this type of renovation I would recommend grazing the pasture down tight or cutting the hay in mid-August to minimize competition from the existing stand and then slurry seeding at a rate to apply less than 100 lb/ac total N so there is not excessive competition from the added N. Then leave the grazing animals off for the fall, and if possible, avoid grazing in the spring and take the crop off as hay. That gives the new seedlings a chance to get established without animal traffic and extends the time between slurry application and grazing.

[Tim Harrigan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzvr5miXxZ8

Again for those interested, here is another video of cover crop establishment work at a dairy in S. Michigan. At this location cereal rye is a good choice, the soil is pretty much a sand and susceptible to blowing in the spring. My interest is comparing slurry seeding with other seeding methods. This is video is not an application of animal draft.

[Andy Carson]

Another report on the cover crops, in case people are still interested in this thread. I think enough time has passed that I might make a few meaningful observations. I don’t mean this to be a prediction of what will happen for everyone, just what happened in my fields with the weather we had this year. Take it with a grain of salt…

Oats either mixed or by themselves grow like crazy and are great cover. They seem to be pretty robust in that they sprout when the seedbed is not prepared really well and/or not rolled after seeding. I broadcast the oats at about 33% over what was recommended for a drill and this seems about right. Also, i have had a few frosts here already and the oats seem unaffected so far.

Medium Red Clover grew a little slow and although much of it is up, I wonder if it is going to matter for next year. I feel like I was a little late getting this in (mid september) and this might be a huge factor. It’s supposed to live through the winter so maybe it’s best to judge this next spring at corn planting time. The clover did seem a little more sensitive than the oats to having a nice seedbed and areas with a poor seedbed seem a little sparse. Some areas that don’t have much clover do have weeds, which I was unhappy to see.

Turnips are freaking awesome! To be honest, I had the biggest concern about these and they seemed a little weird when i was planting them. I was concerned that the spreading might not be uniform, but I can’t tell from the field. The turnips aren’t very sensitive to seedbed generation and they are growing like crazy. They have grown the best, really, of all the covers I planted and I will definately be using them in the future. I am curious what they would have looked like if we didn’t start getting lots of rain right after I seeded them…

I have been a little disappointed with the rye. I broadcast at the drilling rates rather than increasing by 33%. I think this was a big part of it, but they just don’t seem to jump as fast as the oats did. Maybe these fields will look better as the rye continues to grow later into the fall and winter, but for now it’s not really impressive. That said, the areas where the rye is weak don’t contain many weeds either, so I suppose it’s still serving it’s purpose. I am definately going to up the rates next year to levels similar to the oats.

The hairy vetch is growing with about the same sort of vigor as the clover. I suppose this is good as the vetch hasn’t had as much time, but it’s still not knocking my socks off. Perhaps this is another one that is best to evaluate later as it isn’t really impressive right now.

Both the hairy vetch/rye and rye alone were planted about two weeks behind the oats, clover, and oat/turnip mix so it’s also possible this time is why the rye and vetch look kinda weak in comparison.

[sickle hocks]

Thanks for this thread, Andy. Could you tell us a bit more about the seeder and packer in the thumbnails at the start?

I wondered if you had to adjust the gear ratio of that ATV broadcast speeder for horse work, and how speed sensitive it is?? How many acres a day would be realistic with it? I guess it depends if you make two passes at half rate, and i might have too much seeding to do to manage that…

I also wondered what your roller was made out of or what other possibilities might be out there.

This spring I want to sow some green manure / forage mixes of cereal/legume/perhaps brassica. I would also like to get some land down to permanent pasture / hay. The land is in wheat stubble right now and i was hoping i could disc, broadcast, and then disc or harrow…

thanks…

[Andy Carson]

Hi Sicklehocks,
I am glad you enjoyed this thread. The speader works really well, even thought it was designed for a lawn tractor. I didn’t have to adjust the gear ratio to use it, but it does help to be steady with your speed. The only thing I didn’t like was that the lever controlling the spread rate tends to slip and needed fixed with a couple thick rubber bands and some wire. Pretty easy. I found it much easier to spread the seed light and make multiple passes in different directions. The roller in the thumbnail didn’t last very long, I would recommend a modified construction method… This is discussed in the equipment section under “rake/roller.” Were you going to walk behind your spreader? I did, and was able to spread and roll about 2 acres in a day. The days weren’t really long, but they did involve alot of fast walking, and I got blisters. You could probably do twice that (maybe even more) if you want to sit on a forecart… I think another important factor for me was trying to seed right before a rain. In Pittsburgh that’s an easy thing, but in other areas of the world it might not be. How much land do you need to seed? Do you know what kinds of covers work well in your area? What are your goals for the cover crops?

[sickle hocks]

I have some hills and I think I would need shafts. It probably makes sense to build a forecart and perhaps get a slightly bigger spreader.

This will be spring seeding. Broadcasting isn’t unheard of here, though more risky if it gets dry. I am curious about ‘frost seeding’ to get better contact…it doesn’t seem to be a common term here, but the big farmers use no-till air seeders or seed drills, so maybe it just isn’t thought about anymore.

Right now I have all native grassland or agronomic hayfield. Next spring I need to add 23 acres of tilled land. I want to seed some grass, but am not expecting much from it in year one. The rest goes into green manures to build up nitrogen and organics for cropping in 2012. I want to run the nutrients through my cattle and perhaps use intensive grazing to terminate some of the crops. I’m trying to research different mixes so I will have some fields for summer and some for late fall grazing, as well as some winter swath grazing. I also need to put up some greenfeed just in case.

I hope that the different crops will allow me to spread out the seeding over time so i can work more slowly and hit the rainy days better. I guess it’s all an experiment, really….oh, i found your thread on the roller, thanks..

With your two acres a day did that include multiple passes with your seeder?

murray

[Andy Carson]

The two acres was with two passes over the ground with me walking behind. You could definately broadcast seed over a much larger area with a forecart moving faster and only making one pass. the spreader I was using actually worked really well, the only thing I would do if I was going do alot of ground is bring alot some bags of seed on the forecart. That said, the amount of land I can use is primarily limited by the amount I can prepare for seeding in a timely manner. That is to say, the capacity of the broadcaster is not the factor that limits how much land I can plant. Are you planning on tilling 23 acres with animal power? That’s a bigger piece than I could work. I would bet your ability to till the ground is going to limit you before your seeder does. Have you planned this out? Just some friendly thoughts…

I reread your thread and see that you are planning sequential crops. This helps me alot. Still, it is not easy to keep 5 1 acre plots growing as I would like them to. Still, I only use a single horse, so perhaps these figures out to be multiplied by two for a team. Also, western PA can get pretty “lush” at times and the weeds can go crazy, other areas are likley quite different and this will effect how much ground you can work. Again, just some friendly advice. I know when I started, I thought 5 acres was “tiny” and seemed almost “silly” by modern farm standards. After you walk it off in 2-4 foot strips, however, a single acre feels big behind a horse. Also, I think you can do alot with smaller pieces of ground, you just have to adjust your goals and expectations and find something unique you can do.

[sickle hocks]

Friendly thoughts and reality checks always most welcome! I’ve got a lot to learn and don’t need to bite off more than i can chew…:)

Tillage may well be the rate limiting factor. I was hoping I wouldn’t need to plow anything. I have a seven foot horse disc and I was going to take the outside discs off to make it a six footer and a more reasonable draft for a team. I suppose I’ll find it needs three abreast.

I want to eventually convert most of the acreage from annual forage into permanent pasture for just the scale reasons you are mentioning. I still have a bunch more rented out but there is some possibility that I could start to switch it over in bite-sized chunks over the years. I hoped to keep up with a lot of the initial weeds by grazing or mowing before they go to seed. Maybe I’ll need a tractor after all..

Keeping about five acres in intensive cultivation sounds about right…I was thinking about heirloom variety dry beans, exotic grains, garlic, maybe heirloom vegetables for seeds…???? need to find a unique niche, like you say…

curious what sort of crops you grow on your one acre plots? are they row crops? do you use a one horse walking cultivator? Thanks for your thoughts..

[Andy Carson]

I am pretty new at this too Murray, so can only honestly share what I have learned thus far. I have only successfully grown cover crops on my plots so far, but have really learned alot of lessons doing it. I was lucky (and unlucky) in that the 5 acres I split into plots had corn growing in it the year before. Lucky because it had already been broke in. Unlucky because it was full of corn trash that plaqued everything I tried to do for a while. If the land was all sod, I think I might have hired a local tractor to plow it once for me to get things started. I know it’s kinda a cop-out, but plowing up sod is hard and slow, especially with a single. Besides, once it’s plowed once, I have had good luck keeping the weeds down with a disc. You could probably do something similar if you are interested. Alot of small farmers (at least around here) often end up with “toys” they like to “play with.” I have a neighbor who keeps asking me if I need any tractor work done, perhaps you do too. I have been afraid of actually buying a tractor b/c I think it will become the “easy answer” to all the things I would rather be doing with my horse. Hiring out (although I have never done it) might be a good way to force yourself to learn, while also being able to accomplish some challenging tasks (like breaking in 23 acres of sod) from time to time. Again, just friendly thoughts from someone who is also learning.

I like to be able to say that all traction on my farm is provided by animal power. So method I would concider if I had lots of ground to till only once, would be to find someone with a big team of horses I could hire out to. I live close to Amish communities that plow with big teams of 7 and I could see them being able to deal with that type of job in a timely manner. I don’t have work for that meny horses on a daily basis (and wouldn’t want to maintain them), but it would be another option if you are lucky enough to live close to people who have big teams.

Another thing to think about now that I have started blathering, is how you are going to harvest and thresh your grain. That might be another important bottleneck.

[sickle hocks]

Maybe we should start up a small grains equipment thread over in the sustainable farming section? I’ll need some kind of stationary thresher, maybe homebuilt, maybe modified wood chipper….Probably the least expensive option for me would be to pick up the smallest pull-type combine i can find rusting away around here and convert it to a stationary thresher…but it would be overkill for capacity and would take more power than i would prefer.

Fossil free would be nice, but i’m not sure a treadle thresher would be adequate for capacity.

Will you be using the ‘horse traction only’ as part of your marketing?

[Andy Carson]

Next spring report on the cover crops.

The plots seeded with rye, which didn’t look impressive last year, look much more impressive this spring. The rye might make a good cover for me after all. The hairy vetch which was planted along with the rye in one plot didn’t look very impressive last year and I can’t find it at all this spring. Perhaps maybe I’ll find some later, but I think this is still a loser for me. The red clover is growing great in the areas where is got established last fall. There is no improvement in areas with poor establishement, but I am happy with anything concidering how late I got it planted. The two biggest suprises are that a substantial amount of oats actually lived through the winter. Probably 90% winter killed, but I was expecting 100% kill so was suprized to see that the green was (mostly) oats upon further inspection. It might have survived as seed, as I could see the seed coat attached to some. No matter really. I am still quite happy with the oats and will use them again. Another interesting observation is that many turnips seem to have lived through the winter too. Almost all of these have shrivelled roots attacted to them, but the leaves are green and look healthy where I can find them. I might mistake the oats for something else without the seed attached, but there is no mistaking turnips… Here again, it’s probably 90% winter kill, but not 100%. Interesting to see but I doubt it means much. I’ll use the turnips again too. I really liked these planted along with oats. The deer absolutely loved them too. I gave up on trying to keep the deer out of the turnips after weather got cold and the deer (I think) ran out of other food. Just an update.

[Tim Harrigan]

Rye can really jump with a few warm days in the spring so don’t admire it too long or you will have a heck of a time trying to control it with your disk. It would be about like the sod you mentioned in the other post about working this weekend. It seems to me that hairy vetch likes to be seeded a little deeper than might be typical with your disk, or you might have run out of degree days to get it started. Red clover is a nice cover, we like to get it started in August here and I suspect your season is pretty similar to ours. We have seen the same with turnips here with some living through the winter. We had a good, early snow cover that never left, that makes a big difference. Those should be easy to control with disking. Oats might take a few passes to cut up and incorporate.

[Andy Carson]

Thanks for the thoughts Tim. One of the plots with rye in it (it was supposed to be rye/vetch) is going to be strip tilled at 6 foot intervals for pumpkins. I am following a model where the rye between rows was rolled. I really like the idea, but I am not sure my roller is going to do what I am hoping for. I might mow it with a small gas powered walk behind brush trimmer I have. I am open to other ideas as well if you or anyone else has thoughts. The idea is to leave it as cover for the pumpkin vines to spread over and act as a mulch. In a perfect world, I wouldn’t need to incorporate it until after the pumpkins are harvested. The other plot with rye in it is destined for buckwheat. I am sure you are right that I need to get on tilling this ASAP, but I take some comfort in that buckwheat (at least from what I’ve read) grows so fast and so thick it might out compete rye after the weather warms up. That said, I’m still going to try to get rid of as much rye as possible. Overall, I’m really impressed with rye as a cover for my situations. It is so much slower to establish in the fall than oats, and might become a control issue in the spring. I’ll know more after I see how it goes in the pumpkin patch, but I might switch to a different overwintering small grain next year. Maybe I’ll try triticale…

[sickle hocks]

Andy, if you don’t mind, just so i have it straight…you broadcast your rye and oats, and then just followed with a roller, no harrow? And you broadcast clover and turnips in the same pass as the cereals?

I hope I’m not hijacking your thread.

I want to seed oats for swath grazing. I would like to spring seed some fall rye, hopefully with a legume, perhaps sweet clover. Also a grass / legume mix. Everyone I read has a different take on broadcast seeding…there are so many variables I guess. If I follow the broadcast with a harrow or disc to get the grains a bit deeper then I would worry about the legumes being too deep…I suppose I could seed a second pass with the legume, but there is only so much time…

[blue80]

Sicklehocks, for oats with legume, I was taught by some old farmers to disc the ground, wait for 30 days. Next spread the oats and then disc them in, which also kills newly germinated weeds. Immediately spread fertilizer with alfalfa mixed in, at half rate. So spread it first one way, then perpendicular to eliminate striping… Then cultipack both directions. It worked great, and I plan to do the same in the future. A 40 hp tractor, 10 ft. disc, and 10ft. cultipacker was all that was needed to plant a stand into bean stubble…
Cut the crop the first year to eliminate weeds, not for perfect tonnage. It pays off in the long run, what I was told.

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