Shoeing working horses

[near horse]

Amen Grey! I can find farriers willing to trim my drafts but not shoe ’em – guess that means I need to learn to do it myself.

[grey]

I’m fortunate enough in circumstance and hoof condition to not need shoes for the vast majority of the year, but that once or twice a year hurts the pocket book. If I needed shoes more often, I’d certainly make a greater effort to learn the farrier’s trade. But this once or twice a year thing makes me more interested in Easyboots than risking a hot nail and having a horse go lame at the wrong time. When I need my horses, I need them. I don’t have spares and I’m fearful of the learning curve.

[aaronlee]

Hi all,

As someone who recently finished a farrier program and is currently doing an apprenticeship I’ve been following this thread with some interest. It has been said a few times already that shoeing a horse is not rocket science, and I totally agree, but it is something one has to learn before it should be undertaken by anyone.

Iron Rose, Mathew, and Carl already made great points about learning to take care of your horses’ feet. To reiterate: find a good farrier, maybe he or she will let you ride with them one day a week for awhile. Go to school, I would suggest one at least six weeks long, this will get you just enough education that you won’t lame your horse with your rasp and nippers. Get Principles of Horse Shoeing 3 by Doug Butler, it is pretty much the textbook of horseshoeing.

What I would like to talk about is the cost of horseshoeing. To my limited knowledge, there is nothing about horses that is cheap. Unless you are truly using your horse to make you money, owning a horse will always be a financial loss. Your farrier is not just the person who shows up every 6 to 8 weeks, he or she should be a business. Hopefully a good business–just because it only takes them 20 minutes to trim your horse doesn’t mean it didn’t cost them money to do it. All the tools, shoes, nails, pads, and gas cost them money. Whether or not they use any particular one of these on your horse on a given day doesn’t change the fact that this is all necessary inventory to attend to every horse’s diverse needs or ailments. And until they sell these products to you they are losing money on them.

Being a farrier is one of those awesome jobs where the learning never stops or at least shouldn’t, so going to clinics and seminars costs them money, too. And of course there are the things that are hard to quantify, like experience, skill, and the mastery of an art, just like farming with horses. It might only take them 20 minutes now, but some time before they showed up at your barn it took them a lot longer, trust me.

If you want to save money, using the cheapest guy or the latest greatest “not a horse shoe” thing, is not always the best way to go. Like Iron Rose said, you get what you pay for. What you could do is see if only shoeing the fronts is an option. If your horse doesn’t need shoes and the terrain and work you’re doing allow it, try going bare foot, but I would ask a farrier what they think first. See if you can go to a longer shoeing cycle. And lastly, move to an Amish community. 😉

Long story short, if you are being asked to pay $120 to $250 depending on your horse and it’s needs, you are not being fleeced, you are paying your farrier a livable wage for doing a job not a whole lot of people want to or can do. Again, like paying more for produce, or meat that was grown in a loving and sustainable way.

PS: Just for fun, if you think I’m full of it go out and stand under your horse the way your farrier does for 20 or 30 minutes and then tell me what you think. 🙂

Thanks for reading, Aaron

[Andy Carson]

I think whether you should learn to shoe your own horses probably depends at least a little on how many horses you have and how often they are in shoes. I only have one draft but keep shoes on her most of the year. For that, I pay about $600 a year. I have looked into a couple quick two week courses that might make me a reasonably competant farrier since my horse doesn’t really have any hoof issues. The tuition to these places is anywhere from $1000 to $2000. I would guess that if I look hard for used equipment, I might be able to find the tools I would need for $600-1200. At any rate, that means it would take anywhere from 3-6 years for this venture to pay for itself. That’s not counting my time off from work to take the course and my time spent actually doing the shoeing. For me, it’s not worth it right now, especially considering the risk of me injuring my horse. It was useful to do the calculation though…

[goodcompanion]

@aaronlee 16934 wrote:

Hi all,

To my limited knowledge, there is nothing about horses that is cheap. Unless you are truly using your horse to make you money, owning a horse will always be a financial loss.

This site is dedicated to those who use animal power to perform real work and therefore probably make money. So you might encounter more of a reluctance to defer to professionals here on this site than elsewhere in the equestrian world.

There is nothing wrong about being a professional and providing professional service. I would say the same for electricians or mechanics or accountants or any of the many other professionals out there who generally make more money from their professions than I do from mine. But I can’t afford their services unless there is absolutely no way that I can make do for myself.

[mitchmaine]

to someone that doesn’t know how to drive horses, it can be a very big challenge to get into it. but most folks here on this site seem in or beyond that process. shoeing is no different. a big challenge. so pick up and clean out your horses feet. once you get that down, start trimming. learn how it’s done and go slow. once that becomes easier and you have a little confidence, throwing a shoe on is just the next step. when someone wants to know how to do something bad enough, try and stop them from learning. don’t get me wrong, i’m not trying to say trimming and shoeing are any easier than driving or working horses, what i’m saying is you can do either or both well if you find out what you need to know and aquire some experience to be able to apply the knowledge. cause it sure is expensive.

[aaronlee]

@goodcompanion 16944 wrote:

This site is dedicated to those who use animal power to perform real work and therefore probably make money.

Doing real work with your animals and making money with them are two totally different things. You can do a whole host of things around your farm with animals that won’t make you a dime, but they might help to differ the cost of outside inputs, like firewood vs. heating oil or manure vs. fertilizer. What they might be doing for you is saving you time, and time vs. money is a whole other topic.

I did not mean to imply that the folks on this site were not doing real work with their animals, and a good many of them might be making money with them.

I wrote the post for folks who might not be as handy as some or are just getting into horses and happen to come across this site looking answers.
If the only things written in the shoeing horses thread are that you should be able to do it yourself and that your farrier is ripping you off, some folks might not find that all too helpful. If someone can trim their horse’s feet, great, but if they can’t and have to pay, they need to know that they are paying for highly skilled specialty service.

The Romans had a saying, “no foot no horse.”;)

Thanks, Aaron

[Andy Carson]

I think the point is that it is possible to make money rather than loose money by working horses. Because this may be challenging, I try to approach every decision, including how to shoe my horse, as a buisness decision. If I had to pay $200 a pop to get even one horse shoed, that’s $1800 a year and seriously cuts into the bottom line! I am glad I shopped around and found a cheaper guy who does a great job at 1/3 this price. Even with my current guy, I would be tempted to learn if I had a team. If I had more than two heavy horses, or if the only farriers I could find charged $200+, I have a hard time seeing how hiring a farrier is the best buisness decision…

[Joshua Kingsley]

I see the economics worked out like you have layed out in the previous post and for those of us wit several horses or even multiple teams it can really take a bite out of the bottom line.

A few years back I had 4 to 7 teams here most of the time. I learned to do my own trimming because I had a farrier who was willing to teach and the cost was high. I also had a few horses that I did hire him to do simply because he had the knowledge of how to properly correct an issue. He also set shoes on one of my mares while I was able to set the pulling shoes on my logging teams myself now after a few years with out having a team working I am hesitant to set a shoe on the new horses.
Joshua

[Carl Russell]

It is funny. There really are two types of people when it comes to horses’ feet.

There are those who would just rather pay someone else to do the work. Nothing wrong with this at all. I have a friend who’s been using horses for as long as I have, and he rarely even trims his own horses’ feet.

Then there are those who have a hard time letting someone else do the work.

Although I have done the math, and I have saved myself a lot of money over the years, I just always thought that something as important as hoof care is to the working horse in my operation, should be done by me myself.

Of course I didn’t know anything about hoof care when I started, but I have got to say that I am surprised at how hesitant some people are.

(Before I get a bunch of hate-mail:D, I’ll say clearly that I know that a horse can be ruined if their hooves are poorly cared for.)

I have cut sole to the blood, I have quicked a horse, I have driven nails that didn’t come out of the hoof wall and had to pull them covered with blood, I have had shoes pull away hunks of hoof wall, I have had horses with bruised soles, compacted feet, corns in the corners, and you name it. This is resetting shoes 4-6 times per year for 23 years, and I have yet to have a horse go lame because of any of this. (I know I shouldn’t have said that:eek:)

One reason I mention all of this is that because I did the work, I know what can happen, and I know what it is when I am looking at it. If I just paid someone else, I wouldn’t need to know. Personally I would feel vulnerable.. like I was responsible for this big beast and I didn’t know what was going on.

Another reason I mention this is because if I was afraid that I might do any of these things, or moreover, that somehow I would ruin my horse as a result, then I would also feel vulnerable, and ineffective as a caretaker of my horse. The fact is that the men who I turned to as mentors knew what they were doing, but they would scoff at that type of hesitancy. It is a result of our modern cultural disconnect from horse care, and one of the reasons why these professionals are saddled with such high expectations.

Although I rarely use lawyers or accountants, we actually didn’t even have anybody officiate our wedding, I do understand how much cost, skill, and professionalism goes into being a farrier. My choice not to use a farrier has nothing to do with whether I can get a good job done, and everything to do with my personal need to do it for myself.

There are a lot of important factors to learn. Anatomy of the hoof, dynamics of the working horse, structure of the shoe, skills and methods for trimming and balancing the foot, but these are all things that broaden the teamster’s role from owner to husband. These are all things that need to be brought to the working horse whether it is the owner or the farrier, so there is no reason to view understanding them with trepidation.

As much as I want to support good farriers like Aaron as a necessary part of our community, I absolutely believe that I also need to encourage people to seriously consider overcoming their hesitancy and learning more about doing their own trimming and shoeing.

Carl

[goodcompanion]

Well, I certainly don’t feel ready to shoe my own horses. However I can trim adequately and fortunately don’t have to shoe for the conditions on my farm. This rules out work in a lot of winter conditions but I can’t afford to hire a farrier and farm profitably.

For instance I would love to plow snow with my horses but I choose to do so with a tractor instead because, given the cost of shoeing, it’s incredibly cheaper. Whereas I plow, harrow, cultivate, seed and hay with horses because it’s cheaper than doing that work with a tractor as well as more enjoyable.

If shoeing were required for my typical conditions I would have had to choose by now between teaching myself to shoe (which I’ll agree, is an art and serious business), and getting out of horses altogether. It takes three drafts to pull a plow in my land and if I had to pay the $4000 or so dollars for it would cost to keep them shod every year, well, that would buy a lot of diesel fuel. Or biodiesel, or whatever. Paying for this service would have a severe negative impact on the economics of what I am trying to do. A deal-breaker, in fact.

I would bet that most people who are are dedicated to working horses as an affordable, sensible approach to getting real work done would not see that kind of a bill as a reasonable expense.

[mitchmaine]

if this points been made already here, bear with me, but if you can get a horses foot off the ground and in your lap for five minutes, trimming, cleaning, whatever. then that horse trusts you pretty well. your in his head now. why would you want to give that over to a stranger?

[Gabe Ayers]

I have been following this thread for some time, and I am glad to see the range of points that have been raised here. I have a single draft that I use on our small farm, and we also log to generate some income. This revenue helps to offset the costs of keeping our draft, including hay, grain, farrier and vet sevices, etc. I have kept detailed records of money spent and income generated from our single draft. We do not own a tractor, though I have spent a great deal of time thinking about whether or not a used machine would be a wise investment.

So, here are a couple of points I would add to this discussion. I agree with those who pointed out that the cost we you pay to have a farrier come and work greatly depends on what part of the country you live in. Here in Vermont we are long way from any significant Amish population or other folks that rely on horse power on a regular basis. It is easy to get a tractor tire patched and filled, but much more difficult to find a ferrier who will do drafts (and impossible to get someone qualified to shoe for the prices some of you have mentioned). We pay more here for horse purchase, feed, shoeing, and equipment (just like we pay more for gas than they do in the midwest). Let’s put it this way – I can get a gallon of maple syrup down the road for $40. Folks in Iowa might pay a fair bit more, but that is the price you pay for that product in that market. And, my farrier is no duramax driving, boat shoe wearing con-artist. He is a hardworking guy who provides a necessary service. His work on our draft earns him a bit less than $50/hour, not including his time to prep shoes and his costs for supplies. The decision as to whether or not to do it myself is a personal decision based on my own skills, finances, and time, and I don’t feel bad at all paying him to do this work for me. He does good work and charges a reasonable rate.

Also, when I consider the overall finances of owning and working horses one of my main reasons for using horsepower (beyond the fact that I like it much better than sitting on a tractor seat) is that given the costs associated with buying and maintaining even a small tractor that would meet our needs, horsepower is way cheaper. A small used, 4WD machine in good condition that I could run in the woods and for fieldwork would run me $10,000-15,000. My single horse, used trailer, harness, arch, woods tools, and annual costs don’t come anywhere close to that cost. I can own this horse for a long time before I have anywhere near that much money invested. Yes, it would be cheaper to shoe myself but at this time it is a cost that I am more than willing to bear. When you add it all up, my income generated with the horse more than pays for the investment, even with the farrier costs. And, I have a lot more fun with the horse…

[slanabhaileequine]

I was running thru the older messages trying to get a feel for the site before jumping and I couldn’t resist jumping in here. I am new to the forum. Hi, I am Dave. I am a farrier and was surprised to hear some of the prices givem on both ends of the spectrum. I know that the Amish Farriers are cheaper than I am but I don’t any that are 25 bucks. I have heard 40 or 50 for drafts but that doesn’t mean they aren’t out there. I believe you. But the simple economics of that equation puzzle me unless they are making the shoes. A standard saddle horse shoe costs between 4 and 12 dollars a pair. A quick check of Horseshoes Plus, the supplier I use in NH, shows a standard unclipped Draft sized Keg shoe costs 10 dollars. A steel toe clipped Workhorse shoe, 16. These are with out toe or heel caulks. Will Lent, a tremendous shoer and shoemaker in Michigan sells shoes nbetween 18 and 35 dollars. These are your Scotch bottoms and heel and toe caulked shoes. I use Borium on my shoes for traction at 4-6 dollars a stick and drill tech runs 12-13. Nails are 2-3 dollars more per 250 count. So, just doing the math, you are looking at a minimum of around 12 dollars in supplies. Minimum. Then add in time.
I am not the cheapest farrier around. And I am far from the most expensive. Being totally honest, most farriers don’t want to do Drafts. Reasoning is simple. Heavy, takes longer and let’s be honest, all of OUR horses are well behaved but there are some out there that aren’t and that is bad enough to deal with in a 1000 Thoroughbred, let alone a 2200 pound Perch. So they will tell you they will shoe your horse but will double their price from their highest priced saddle horse to discourage people from calling them. And that’s how you wind up at 200-400.
So that leaves guys like me who own a draft. I kind of have to trim and shoe drafts. I do charge more than my saddle horses, but not much. I charge 35 for trims, 60 for fronts and 80 for all four as a base line fee on saddle horses. I do charge less for trimming minis. On a draft, depending on how big they are and how well behaved, charge 45-55 for trims and 80 and 100 for shoeing. Now, again, that is base line. Borium, studs, rocker toes all 5 more. Egg bars, heart bars and regular bars are priced accordingly as are clips, toe and heel caulks. Now, I have been trying to get into the race track some and that is an entirely different ball game!
So that is my story on economics of shoeing a draft. Halfies? I would charge you like I do a saddle horse, with an additional little bit for any extra over the standard shoe. Resets, well that depends on how much I like you!
Oh, and the small Amish community here has a farrier who I don’t think wants to be the community farrier let alone going off site. He asked me the other day how much I would charge him for the Belgians. I smiled and said, depends on how good they are!

[Livewater Farm]

slanahaileequine I shod horses for 25 years in vermont newhampshire and mass gave it up 4years ago I have boxes of unused shoes of all kinds for harness racing saddle horses and others all styles and sizes I would let them go reasonable to someone interested
Bill

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