Should I sell or put down

[Jean]

Ok, we had a rough week starting on Monday when Kruiser took a dive with the fore cart. The driver ended up with a broken collar bone and 1 broken rib, plus it seems head tramua as she is still grogy and the pain meds have been reduced.

I saw the whole thing and it it appeared to me as though he said FU, I don’t want to do this anymore and I am going to get rid of you and this cart. We were in a ring. He hit a barrel and it flipped the cart and him. After I loosened the harness enough for him to get up he took off and was now running loose with a person down on the ground unconscious. I was able to run at him and grab his halter (was on under his bridle). Once I had hold of him and talking he calmed down enough for me to get the cart off of him. That was no easy task, as one of the shafts was up over the hames and I could only use one hand, because I was holding him with my other. His bridle was pulled tight by the off hames having the over check caught on it.

There was no reason that we could see to set him off. He did not get stung, there was no noise to spook him, we were in a place with a driver that had driven him hundreds of times. She said he bronced. Plan and simple.

Now the question…. What would you do? Sell or kill?

This horse has shivers, has had it for years, was not an issue, but since the accident he has been showing the classic signs. He has been nasty to me, acting like he might bite and basically unfriendly. Very unusual behavior for him. He was an in your pocket kind of horse.

I do not go into this easy. I saved a mouse that fell in a bucket twice in the same day. My barn cat has to be in the house by 7pm so I don’t have to worry about him being in the road at night.

Jean

[Carl Russell]

Jean I wouldn’t kill or sell. I am unclear why some one else was driving your horse, but seeing as you weren’t driving, it is nearly impossible for you to make a clear judgment about his future.

I would go back to square one, and start over building back what you had with this horse. I am not one to ever give up on a horse, there’s always a chance that they can be the horse you want them to be.

The real question is if you want to get rid of the horse. If you think he is too risky for you, and you don’t want to pass that along to some one else, then put him down. There is no reason that you should feel guilty about that. He is your horse, and it is entirely within your realm of responsibility to make that decision.

You have the right to decide that you don’t want to work that hard with a horse. And don’t beat yourself up, because it is your own personal experience.

Sorry to hear about this situation. Sleep on it.

Carl

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Jean, I am very sorry to hear about the events with Kruiser. While I think it is ultimately a very personal decision I really appreciate your opening it here. it is valuable for all of us to be reminded of the responsibility we have and how difficult it can be.

There are always details about what exactly happened that you will wonder about. What if I had done this or that. That is OK. None of us was there so it is impossible to say.

I agree with Carl, in that I wouldn’t try and make a quick decision, but I wouldn’t leave him standing around either. Go out and make him move around, do the things he knows how to do, Then you will find out if you can reconnect with him. I guess it is some what of a personality thing but I am like Carl in that I hate to give up on a horse. I think there are two explanations for that. First is plain hubris – believing I can “fix” what is wrong. The second is that a horse that isn’t doing exactly what I want is so interesting to me and I feel like I can learn from it. None of these motivators may apply to you.

Finally, I will say I have given up on a horse or two. I am always reminded of a horse logger friend who I visited one weekend while he was selling a horse. It looked like a nice horse so I asked why? Well, he was in the business of making money from moving logs with horses and this horse was never going to make any money. Valuable lesson for me because of what I said above about wanting to fix them all. What is it that you want from your time with horses? Do you want to train them?

I hope all the injuries heal, and you find a safe, productive place for Kruiser, either home or else where. Donn

[ngcmcn]

Jean, did you notice any physical changes,even slight, in Kruiser before all this happened? Having Shivers makes me wonder?

Neal

[Jean]

Hind sight is great. Here is what happened prior to hooking him to the forecart.

I was ground driving him to the ring where the forecart was. He balked at the gate, he had never done that before, he is usually very willing to work. I ended up having to really get after him to go through the gate, good wollop with the end of the lines. When he did go through he was willing to go the rest of the way. I thought, ok, I won that one, now he remembers he is not the boss.

When we had him in the shafts and was hooking the tugs on Cathy was not strong enough to get her side done, so I handed her the lines and I went around to the other side and got her tug on. He moved forward and Cathy corrected him. She had the lines and I made a joke (not very funny now), you have the lines you get in. She has driven this horse a ton, he came to me from her farm. He has never shown any really bad behavior while hooked. I have had my totally green sister and husband drive him. As Cathy said to me today when I visited her in the hospital he drives like a cadilac.

Anyway once she was in he wanted to go, so she encouraged him to trot around the ring, but when she tried to get him to come down to a walk he would not and it got out of control in seconds.

maybe his trot was not a nice floaty trot, maybe it was a trot that said my back end hurts and if I bounce with every step it does not hurt as long. I don’t know.

The vet is coming to look at him tomorrow. He has for sure been different since it happened. He was snappy at me last night and today he has not really wanted to leave the barn. His gate on the hind end seems off, not limping lane, but off. He does have a banged up hock where he landed when he flipped himself. Not too hot, but I am sure sore.

I had been working on him backing up for a couple of weeks, that was a very weak spot in my ability to tell him what I wanted to do. That could have made the shivers worse.

Sorry for the long post.

Jean

[jen judkins]

Wait a minute, Jean. Is shivers the same as EPSM? I had to look up your term and it sure sounds like it is Equine Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy and is a serious neuromuscular disorder. Is it possible that Cruiser got into some grain prior to your driving session…that would definately set him off. These horses don’t tolerate any grain at all, as you probably know.

[karl t pfister]

Jean ,,Wow a close encounter of a third kind ,they do come for a reason .Back in march did you have some trouble with him leaping into a gallop for a few strides ? Sometimes holes in training show up in very strange places and times , inexplicable ? We probably need a Sherlock Holmes at times . Did you mention also that some folks had some less than positive things to say about him before you got him , subtracting 10 to 50% for exzageration ,What did they say ? Please don’t take any of this personally , these are difficult Questions for all who try to be the better leader . When we get horses with “a history” we never know the horses whole story .THis is where the screw loose theory sometimes is brought up, when things get too close to seeming like the other “really scary ” thing that happened the horse panics and tries to take back his control or at least repeat a solution that they tried before in a bad situation. All indeed complicated by physical problems I never heard of EPSM. Good Luck I hope the best .

[Carl Russell]

Jean, I hope you’ve found some resolution. I realize that you just need to deal with what happened, and there is very little that can be gained by trying to relive the problem, but it just occurred to me that this would be a good opportunity for me to reiterate a piece of my own personal philosophy.

At times I have been rebuffed because I never trust a horse, and I rarely(close to never) let anybody else drive my horses. The reason I don’t trust horses as a rule, is not because I believe they are malevolent creatures, but because I understand them to be as unpredictable. I also have worked with them long enough to know that what I thought was true about them yesterday is only a fable today. However I don’t hold this against them, I just know it to be fact.

Because of this, I don’t “share” my horses with other people. Conversely, I never drive other people’s horses either. I do not believe that having many drivers affords the horse an opportunity to have a broader understanding. Rather, I believe that it leads to confusion, and misunderstanding, what Karl referred to as “holes in the training”.

Both of these points are things I learned from teamsters and horse people that I have known throughout my life. The most accomplished teamsters that I have known, never have anybody else driving their horses. It is just a basic commitment to the working relationship.

I realize that many people who are starting out, or are looking for help/advice, or are unsure of their skills will let others drive the animals. While it may give some example, and some exercise to horse, it just reinforces the tendency to not take ultimate responsibility, and the horse is never quite sure who to look to for guidance.

In my mind this creates a negative loop of undesirable interaction. Even though another teamster may be much more experienced, I have no understanding of exactly how they are practicing the art, and therefore I have now way to reinforce, or counteract that, with my horse.

I am not trying to admonish Jean. I realize that this is an extremely tragic situation. I hope you can see the value in using this example as an opportunity to point this out. When we become complacent with risky choices, then we become accustomed to them, and we develop a feeling of successfulness that disregards the potential for devastation. Just because nobody picks up the loaded gun left behind the door doesn’t mean that it is a good habit.

The worst thing about this situation is that Jean didn’t have the opportunity to make it right with Kruiser before it turned into the tragedy that it is. The same thing may have happened to Jean, rather than to her friend, but there is no way to know. To me the biggest devastation is in the loss of relationship between the horse and owner. I will take full responsibility for anything that I happen to cause through my own misjudgments, but I protect my relationship to my animals by being the only human allowed to impact it.

My heart goes out to you Jean, Carl

[Jean]

@Carl Russell 10278 wrote:

The worst thing about this situation is that Jean didn’t have the opportunity to make it right with Kruiser before it turned into the tragedy that it is. The same thing may have happened to Jean, rather than to her friend, but there is no way to know. To me the biggest devastation is in the loss of relationship between the horse and owner. I will take full responsibility for anything that I happen to cause through my own misjudgments, but I protect my relationship to my animals by being the only human allowed to impact it.

Carl, this is exactly right. You can only guess how many times both in my waking hours and my sleep I have gone over the “what if I had been driving”. We will never know.

The vet did come out. He says his hip is sore, most likely from the fall. Both his stifles responded to his poking and manipulating them. He felt that they have been sore since before the accident and that could have been a reason for his behavior. Again we will never know.

Until I can think about what to do for at least 2 days in a row, I will keep him as is and treat his sore stifles.

Thanks for the kind words and for the hard to read ones too.

Jean

[near horse]

Hi Jean,

While I’m just a greenhorn teamster who can offer no technical assistance, I can offer you some words of support. While a concussion, broken collar bone and rib would not be considered minor injuries, it is good that your friend was not permanently injured or worse. Ditto for your horse. I understand replaying the scenario over and over to perhaps keep it from reoccurring and maybe learn something from the incident but don’t beat yourself up. It happened and that can’t change so it’s time to clear your head (as you’ve said) and continue on your path with another experience in your bag but NO LESS DETERMINED in what you do.

I may have said this before but it makes me feel a little better after a bad happening. [Note: it came right after I busted the axle in a fully loaded grain truck hurrying out of a field during harvest.] One of the farmers I was working for at the time said “It’ll be alright. Nothin’ ever happens to folks who don’t do nothin” Ain’t it the truth. I think down deep we all know that what we’re doing with horses/mules/oxen carries an element of risk that we work hard to minimize but still exists. Why? Because we/you are folks doing something!

Take care and keep at it.

Geoff

[lancek]

You hit the nail on the head Geoff we are not mind readers and can not tell the future. the only thing we caan do is learn from our experiances and try to do better the next time Tim

[Donn Hewes]

I wanted to comment on Carl’s post about who drives your horses, and to present another perspective. I have great respect for what Carl said, and believe that one teamster / one horse would undoubtedly be the best thing for the horse.

Years ago I would have been much more cavalier about letting some one drive my teams. Now as I have worked harder and harder to learn my craft, and teach my expectations to my animals I have re-thought who should drive them. My motivation to let someone drive them is two fold. First, I want to teach, and second I can use the help when two teamsters are working together.

How to meld these two competing interests? Anyone who drives my animals today is committed to working with me and them. Regardless of their previous experience, they know they will be learning from me. I have walked a few acres behind a mowing machine with the lines in my hand. As Carl points out, there is a risk in doing this. I am very aware of that. When a new intern joins our farm, the first thing I tell them is that they will have a great opportunity to learn to be a teamster. The next thing I tell them is that my farm work is in no way dependant on their ability to work independantly with a team and I can not begin to predict whether they will learn this craft quickly, slowly, or not at all. Then I start teaching.

[Carl Russell]

As I said, “close to never”. As with Donn, teaching is the only time I let another handle my animals. With supervision, and after time spent in my introductory process.

Carl

[Bess]

I think the above – first posed by Jean – is a really important topic for discussion. As much as we all want to believe that all horses are instrinsically “for us, not against us” that may not always be the case. First of all, it depends on their breeding – hot or cold or wired too tight, esp in the case of a draft X etc – and it depends on how they were handled as a colt/filly and it depends on what they have seen and how they were trained and how hungry – literally – they have been or are. And add to that their standing in the herd, hormonal state, time of year/day. Now, apply the human’s experience and training and expectations and the horse’s understanding and interpretation of the handler’s demands on the animal. I have seen some trainers work miracles with some tough horses and other folks fall flat with the same horse. But I don’t for a minute believe that a truly difficult animal can go back to the former owner and not revert to its former bad behavior. And what I believe MOST after being hurt bad a few times by horses with some mean tricks in their repertoire is that first and foremost, I have to be safe. And it doesn’t do me any good to try and work with a horse if I am afraid of it or resentful. The horse knows. It will turn out badly. Nor do I want to be routinely hitting horses to make them compliant. I want my horses to WANT to do what I ask. I have had good horses who a couple times a year for no apparent reason turned into biting, striking, rearing, run over you horses and hurt people badly. It ain’t worth it to me no matter how well they go under saddle or drive or pull the other 363 days. That animal is GONE. Some folks consider it a personal challenge to take on that kind of horse. Great! Sell or give them your horse! I won’t risk my life or that of my friends. I tell my horses almost daily, if they hurt me, they are gone. And I mean it. Turn ’em out to pasture and all you have is a dominant, dangerous pasture ornament. Got a dangerous or unpredictable horse? Be honest about the animal and give/sell the animal to someone who MIGHT be able to use it, partner with it. But get it out of YOUR BARN before you are maimed for life.

[Gabe Ayers]

I have a couple of comments to add from our experience with training several hundred people to drive horses. First, our best team are teachers themselves in that they will react the same way each time to the same signals. My job is to teach the signals and that is impossible without the student actually driving the horses. So they do, each time we hold a private instructional course the students drive our horse by the end or middle of the course. The use the same technique we do to start, stop, back up, turn and stand. They do it with one of of us sitting beside them each time. That is why our log arches have a school bus seat on them, to seat two at a time. That experience is part of what the customer is paying for when they come to our courses. It is an opportunity to drive a world class pair of horses in the forest. It gives them something to seek out in their own teams in the future.

Yes, it takes about 15 minutes to get them back to the light touch sensitivity we normally have with them after the iffy signals of beginners, but one sure command is whoa and I can holler this from a hundred yards away and they will stop. We don’t let new people drive horses still in training.

Sell them or keep them…..Bess is right in my experience, sell them or get them off your place somehow.

In Animal science in college we were taught the first three concerns. Confirmation, procreation and disposition. I submit that in the modern times where people usually don’t work them enough to wear them out the order should be somewhat different. Disposition first, if you don’t get along with them you aren’t going to work them so they aren’t going to wear out from confirmation flaws. If you get along with them you can breed them to a better horses for improved confirmation in their offspring, if a gelding then you only have two concerns and disposition is first.

We are in a time in history where we have many more horse than people with an interest and dedication to work them, so why work an outlaw when there is a good horse languishing somewhere or being born that you can get along with.

I used to think I could work any of them and probably could and have, but that is not he way I choose to perpetuate this culture at this point.

[Author]

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