Should I sell or put down

[Carl Russell]

As much as I appreciate the points of these last two posts, I think that it is important to draw a distinction between people with a lot of experience with disciplined and purposeful approaches, and people who are intrigued by draft horses and are striving to understand how to work them and keep them.

I have seen several instances where well-meaning novices will in part create situations where perfectly good animals become “problem” animals. (Plowboy posted some similar comments this winter)

I think that it is important to have good well-mannered animals to work , and to promote the craft, but it is equally important to emphasize the part played by, even the responsibility of, the teamster in taking the time to learn how to be disciplined enough to make sure that the animal has the best possibility to perform in a suitable manner.

Carl

[Rick Alger]

Jean,

I feel for you. We have struggled with this issue over the years with our own horses and our boarder’s horses. We came to the position that if an average level horse person such as our teenage helper had trouble with the animal, it either went into training or it left our stable.

We believe that we have a responsibility not only to the horse and owner, but also to bystanders, vistors and other boarders.

We have dismissed three horses over the years. One was put down after a trail period, one became a pasture ornament elsewhere after running off with an experienced teammate and trainer, and one sent a seventy year old grandmother into the hospital for a week.

In your case, we would feel our responsibility to others outweighed our responsibility to the horse. What we did in a similar situation was give the horse to a highly skilled teamster, tell the whole story, and ask for a little compensation only if the horse worked out for the teamster.

[Ronnie Tucker]

there are to many good ones to get hurt with a fool .that was what the killer market was for . ronnie tucker

[Bess]

I think I understand what Carl is saying and I agree that green people can confuse and anger a good performing animal to the point it blows up. However, in this particular case, Jean’s horse was trained and worked by horse people with top notch horse handling and driving skills. And it was one of those very well respected people – who has worked with and driven horses since she was a child – who helped hitch him and who was there driving him and seriously injured. This horse has a history of striking, biting and bullying humans. He does not see humans as the boss. You can suppress his resentful nature for awhile and then he explodes. He will never be safe in my opinion.

[Jean]

Bess – do you know my horse? You sure pinned him with your description. I could not have done a better job.

I appreciate the conversation that this thread has had. I know what I have to do and I am waiting for the vet to visit in a couple of days to rule out health issues. Once that is done we will move on and finally make a decision. Knowing what I should do and doing it are two different things.

Jean

[Carl Russell]

I obviously don’t know as much about this horse, nor the injured driver as others, but my comment was merely to point out that no one, in my mind, should be placing more responsibility on the horse than on the teamster.

I just think that as a teamster, owner, or trainer the responsibility rests on them to make sure that the horse is not put in a situation where its best interests are compromised.

Knowing what everybody seems to have known about this horse, it seems that this situation should not have happened, especially considering the experience of the driver. If the horse was not ready for this, then putting the responsibility for the accident on him, is inappropriate, in my mind.

I think that it is ok for Jean to wipe her hands of it. I support her choice, whatever the decision. I just believe that there are a lot of people who need to read that with the allure of driving horses comes serious responsibility.

Carl

[Jean]

@Joel 10224 wrote:

What caused the wreck? Has the horse had issues before? Are you ready to quit?

Sorry Joel, I was not able to answer your question when it was first asked. Had not had enough time to reflect on the issue.

What caused the wreck? The wreck started when the driver asked Kruiser (K) to come down to a walk from a trot. Instead K went into a canter, then started bucking. No shying, no spook, no bee, no bad driving. He was in my ring, so he had nowhere to go but around. He hit a barrel we had set up and that flipped him, the cart and threw the driver out.

Has the horse had issues before? YES. He is a tester. He will work in the role of second for only so long, then he has to try to move his way to the top. He does it with me by moving into my space, striking with his feet, and general pushy horse stuff. I have been working with this for a long time. We can get to the point that he will follow me around nicely and be polite for a while, then he tries again. He does the same thing with my mare. He will be satisfied with her role for only so long, then goes in and tries again to work his way to the top. I have had professionals help me with him and he does come around, but once he gets comfortable he will try something new to get his way. This is not new behavior with me, this is how he has been for years and other owners. This was the first time that he pulled something like this driving where he was not willing to come down. He would often break into a canter, but after a couple of steps I could pull him down.

Am I ready to quit? That is the toughy isn’t it? I am not ready to quit with horses, but I maybe ready to quit with him. I have spent the last 3 weeks working this in my mind from every angle and what I need here is a calm horse that can do some of the chores without making a fuss about it. That is not what I have.

Sorry for the long answer, but there it is.

Jean

[Plowboy]

In the past I’ve worked with some rank stock and it can be fun, challenging and sometimes rewarding when they come around to be great horses. I had a big Appaloosa/Belgian cross white with liver spots on his rump. He was going to be an all purpose work,driving and saddle horse and he was but not without a lot of effort on my part. We went through rearing up higher than Silver, trying to closeline me on tree limbs, bolting for no reason, and trying to runaway while working. Luckily nobody was ever really hurt and he never dumped me. We never treated him badly and one day when I was getting him ready for a 25 mile trail ride as I brought the saddle out he spun to kick me with both feet. I dropped the saddle but had the bridle in hand with long heavy reins. Each time he spun to kick I stung him good with the reins until he gave up. The old don’t get mad get even concept. I rode him about 15 miles and my girlfriend at the time handed me a package of peanut M&Ms and I tore the package open and started fishing out the contents. The crinkling of the paper sound made him bolt about a hundred feet before I hauled him in. On that ride I made up my mind I had invested too much time in him and everytime I got him over one trick he would come up with another. I put him through a sale honestly and he was bought by a dealer the dealer rode him all afternoon and put him back through the night sale as “kid broke”. A friend of mine knows where he went and said nobody ever got hurt with him but I see that dealer at all the draft sales and have to overcome the urge to drive the SOB good right between the eyes. If someone could have worked him everyday he may have been a good tough horse but any idle time he would revert back to his old behavior. The time I spent with him wasn’t relaxing or enjoyable having to be on guard all the time. We have much better stock than that and is relaxing and enjoyable to work so I never missed Buck at all. I put the money towards a good stout bred Percheron mare and now have a good work mare and her 4yr old daughter. I would say that was better use of the money even though I lost some. I always regretted putting him through the sale after what happened with the dealer.

[karl t pfister]

Hay Jean how are things going with K , I want to publically applaude you for airing on the forum and hope a good resolution has been found . I too now have similar decisions to make . one is a 20 yo riding horse that is sore in all legs but gets around to eat enough grass to make a living .the winters are getting harder for her ,when is the question .The other is a 13 yo work horse mare that worked great for 5 years then developed a shortness of breath that seems to be caused by working to hard in cold temps ,her teammate never was affected . The mare now gets really anxious with any work and I have decided not to work . she also is the worsst horse with both the vet and farrier, probably as a asmantic I have known says when you get short of breath the adrenalin flows and nothing is right . She also is the worst alpha mare I have ,she is ready to put both boots to any horse for any infraction ,dangerous around gates and while catching other horses. Can not sell , can not let her go on being a terrorist can not give her a suite at the Ritz hotel ? thanks karl

[Jean]

Kruiser has been a pretty mellow guy recently. I have changed his feed and I have opened back up to him. He has stopped chewing the barn and tormenting the older horse.

I have harnessed him and ground drove him. He was not fantastic, but he also was not really bad. Had some moments of thinking about doing something, but came down to a nice walk with a simple “easy” or “walk”. I was pretty nervous and stopped the work when I felt myself freezing up. I know how fast that can translate down the lines. Ground driving him has never been easy. He tends to get bored or something.

He also is being unusually friendly when I go out to feed or work around the barn. Not in my face too bad, but just around to accept a rub or scratch.

Does all of this make it easier to figure out what to do with him? Nope, it sure as heck does not!

Karl, you have it bad it sounds. That alpha mare sounds like a nightmare (bad pun). Here is a link that I have read over a couple of times. http://www.equisearch.com/horses_care/health/senior/eqeuthan2466/

Jean

[Lane Linnenkohl]

Jean, if you don’t mind me asking, how often does this horse get worked? And I don’t mean driven around the ring, I mean until he has sweat dripping off his belly.

[karl t pfister]

Hay Jean thanks for that link it had a couple good tidbits of advice good luck with your ordeal karl

[Jean]

@drybranchfarm 11146 wrote:

Jean, if you don’t mind me asking, how often does this horse get worked? And I don’t mean driven around the ring, I mean until he has sweat dripping off his belly.

DBF – NEVER would be the answer. He would get driven 1 or 2 times a week. Never very hard. Maybe in the winter when he was pulling the sleigh, but with the wheels on the cart he has had a simple work load with me. I did not trot him more then a couple of yards at any given time.

I know what you are thinking and I am not going to say you are anything but right. He needs to turn the color of sweat and if he was somewhere with someone that could make that happen he would not be a problem horse. However he is with me and I have been learning as I go and I was not ready myself to get that out of him. We may be the classic green with green.

Jean

[Carl Russell]

Jean;11148 wrote:

DBF – …. He needs to turn the color of sweat and if he was somewhere with someone that could make that happen he would not be a problem horse. However he is with me and I have been learning as I go and I was not ready myself to get that out of him. We may be the classic green with green…Jean

Jean, this is a very sober and clear point of view. I am impressed with your openness, and introspection. You may be right that you have not had the skills that this horse requires, but you have surely learned a lot working with this horse, and you are showing a true and solid foundation of an accomplished teamster.

Keep up the good work, Carl

[Lane Linnenkohl]

@Jean 11148 wrote:

DBF – NEVER would be the answer. He would get driven 1 or 2 times a week. Never very hard. Maybe in the winter when he was pulling the sleigh, but with the wheels on the cart he has had a simple work load with me. I did not trot him more then a couple of yards at any given time.

I know what you are thinking and I am not going to say you are anything but right. He needs to turn the color of sweat and if he was somewhere with someone that could make that happen he would not be a problem horse. However he is with me and I have been learning as I go and I was not ready myself to get that out of him. We may be the classic green with green.

Jean

I appreciate your honesty.

My opinion, for what it’s worth… If you want this horse to be more than a pasture ornament, you need a heavy sled, something with a wide base that won’t flip and good seat that you can stay in. Then drive him on that sled every day for minimum of 30 days. Don’t skip a day for the first 14. Make him tired, so tired he forgets who he is. Then keep going. Don’t take him home until he can whoa and stand quietly. Then walk home at your pace. If after 30 to 45 days your problem hasn’t vastly improved, then find ya a new horse.

By the way, you don’t have to be an experienced teamster to do this, just more stubborn than the horse. If your schedule can’t commit the 30 days to this horse, then you need to move on and find an older, well broke, calm horse.

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