Skidding Big Logs?

[Does’ Leap]

How do folks move big logs with one team? I am ready to cut some pine that should yield some 24 footers, maybe even some 28 footers with diameters of 20″ + at the small end. The mill pays a premium for long logs and I do not want to cut them. I have been logging mostly hemlock with a Forrest Arch and have skidded wood nearing these dimensions, but not as big with mostly a flat to down-sloping skid (the pine would require going up hill).

Thanks.

George

[Gabe Ayers]

We just add power by putting more horses out front. We use a unicorn hitch with one horse up front hooked to a chain that runs through the breast hoke of the wheel team to the arch hooked to the log with the cradle hitch choker chain arrangement. I don’t have a photo of the unicorn hitch but have a couple here of the multiple hitch approach. The one I was able to get to upload is a six up moving a 50+ black oak out of the woods and onto a steeple chase course in Northern Virginia. Very hard on the back arch….but we got it in place and didn’t tear the turf up at all. I will try to post more photos of the four up arrangement later if anyone is interested.

Some cautions are: don’t pull around curves with this arrangement on a heavy load as any arch will turn over. It may be safer to walk beside the arch if there is a question of it turning over. Also be sure your animals will all start together and stay on the load.

You can see a photo of six head on a big poplar log on the front of our web site, address below. It will take extra hands unless you are very skilled at handling more than a team by yourself. We have used four up many times, but they have always been horses that I broke and they start by the same contact command and release signal.

I have always wanted to try the rope pulley system to avoid the direct chain connection. We have used a nylon tow strap for the front team to give a little flex in the attachment.

You also could use a cable and sheave (snatch block/pulley) and move it a few feet at a time until you get it on the downhill side of the skid. When we don’t have the extra horses power this is what we do. It is much slower, but we get it done. Maybe we should have a thread about that technique?

Hope some of this helps, let us know what you do. You can do it, it just takes more power. Maybe some other hands on here will have suggestions.

[Carl Russell]

Bobsled is my weapon of choice. Takes a bit of ingenuity to roll them on, but usually you can pull the sled along side the log, and with a skid/rail against the sled, wrap a long chain around the log and roll them on with the team. This takes time, but the resulting mobility is well worth the effort.

These were 32 foot cabin logs on a single bunk sled. I actually rolled these on by hand.[ATTACH]732.jpg” />

Here is an example of rolling a large pine log on a scoot with the single horse. Chain goes over and around log, then back to the bunk on the sled. A single animal can have excellent advantage over a very big log like this because they are only rolling it.[ATTACH]733.jpg” />

These trees were pretty big, 5-7 trees/truck load.[ATTACH]734.jpg” />

This was a ridge pole for a log cabin, 45 feet long, 14″ top end, scaled about 450 BF. Granted the skid was all downhill, the maneuverability of the sled under the log allows easy turning around pretty extreme corners, as long as the log can follow without binding on bumper trees. Also with the sled the front of the long log is high enough off the ground to make it easily over humps and hollows where the draft can get so far behind the horses that they can’t get any advantage over the weight. [ATTACH]735.jpg” />

To chain down individual logs, the chain is wrapped around the bunk in two places (one chain) so that the ends of the chain extend on each side of where the log will be placed (center of the bunk). When the log is centered, then the ends are joined over the top of the log, and tightened with a binder. This allows the log to pivot on the center of the bunk, while preventing it from rolling from side to side. Also the butt of the log should be on the bunk, and extend well up over the evener, but not so close as to contact the animals.

The sled will also give great advantage on the uphill skid as almost all of the friction will be eliminated by transfer onto toe narrow runners of the sled.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Here are a few more pics of logs on bobsleds.

This shows some of the chain attachment that I was describing in the last post. [ATTACH]736.jpg” />

This I included because it shows the load of cabin logs going around a bit of a curve, and shows how easily the cattle are working. it also shows how much of the log is actually off of the ground. The biggest diameter log was a 42 footer.
[ATTACH]737.jpg” />
Carl

[Does’ Leap]

Thanks for the good information. Jason, I would be interested in more information on the cable and sheave as I only have one team of horses. Carl, I am looking at a bobsled later this week. Have you ever used a travis sled? If so, what are the advantages/disadvantages over the bobsled? I believe the travis sled (sp?) is a bob sled with a rear sled attached? I have a friend who pulled a lot of logs with one and swears by it.

George

[Carl Russell]

Travois sleds are like you say, double bunked. I think they work great, just not as easy to maneuver, such as turning on a dime, and or backing in beside a log. I have never had one, but have seen them used to good advantage.

I would be concerned about using one with such long logs. I think the front sled would probably in the air most of the time. You may be able to detach the rear bunk and move it back like a pole trailer. Also it is a lot easier to roll the big logs onto one bunk.

I have only seen a couple of double bunk sleds that were built heavy for logging, like my single bob. Be sure that the travois you use can take the abuse.

Carl

[Gabe Ayers]

George,

One of the difficult things about a cable and sheave addition to your tool box is finding the sheaves or pulleys. The most frequent modern use is by wreckers or crane operators. We have found them at old farm auctions and military surplus stores in the past.

The larger the diameter of the pulley the less likely it is to curl your cable, so don’t be afraid of the bigger ones. We also have gotten them from linemen that work for utility companies. The cable is just standard stuff like what is used on the skidders, but we have had the good fortune to come upon some stainless steel wire rope that is more flexible and easier to handle. A big note of caution is to use very good leather gloves when handling this cable to protect your hands in case of frayed strands puncturing your flesh….

It is a matter of physics with the pulley doubling the power of the animals and each additional pulley or sheave compounding the animals strength.

Rough description:

We use a simple attachment point that is at the destination the log needs to end up after the effort. So attach the cable there, usually through an eyelet on the end and a short chain around the tree. We often use a nylon strap for this attachment to avoid debarking the tree we are using for what the old guys called the “dead man”. We have put stout sticks against the tree to keep the cable or strap off the actual bark of the dead man tree.

Then run the cable to the log, through a sheave attached to the choker chain on the log and back to another pulley at the dead man or even a different location and then out a skid trail to the team. This way the team can go in one direction and the log in another. When more than one pulley is used it is called a two part line. Get all your cables aligned in the pulleys before hitching the team and be prepared to not have the logs jam against a stump, rock or roots to bring it up into the skid trail or road to move it on to the landing.

We have two pieces of cable, (one 150′ and one 300′) and four sheaves that we use when needed. We use them to pull hangups down out of other trees and big logs up banks out of gullies or ravines into a position we can get to them with the arch. It is slow work. Each application only moves the log so far, so you will have to reset the entire arrangement after each effort to get it into position for easier handling. Just like with hooking directly to the log, don’t hook anything to the team (on an arch or doubletree) until you are ready to go.

I know this text description is inadequate to inform someone of how to do this, but maybe you can find a wrecker operator that will show you how they use them with a winch to get vehicles out of hard spots. There is nothing like seeing this work to get it.

We do have some video of this working and have posted a you tube piece of Chad Miano doing it on some very steep ground. You may have to search for that on the site here, I am on a different computer this morning and can’t cut copy paste the link. If you search you tube for Chad Miano you can find it, but is not real clear nor was it produced to be instructive. Someone just filmed him doing cable and sheave work and you get a glimpse of it working.

Handling long length logs is important to the animal powered practitioner because they are worth more money and the market defines the specs for the goods. Our cabin logs are the highest value for eastern white pine so we have to have a way to move them when we are on a site that needs them harvested for all the forestry reasons we talk about in describing restorative, improvement, sustainable forestry.

We know folks that have used this system to load logs onto trucks and forwarding wagons too and of course they work well on a gin pole, just slow and requires more hands and skills.

We usually spend a day on this at our private instructional courses.

Good luck George, you can do it.

[blue80]

Would a walking beam style cart at the rear of the log work? Kind of like the long fire trucks with separate steering and operator at the rear.

Maybe something like the Yard Hitch going backwards, as it has steering also?

Kevin

[Scott G]

I use fabric rope instead of wire rope. With a background in arboriculture, alot of the rigging gear I used has a great application for horse logging. The rigging rope, referred to as “bull rope” is 3/4 -1″ d and has phenomenal strength. I have never broken one, even with shock loads in the 10,000# range. In the same system, rigging blocks with “whoopie slings” are extremely tough and light. Great for redirects and doubled up can get you the physical block advantage. Fabric rope is a lot easier to work with, doesn’t kink, and you won’t get painful wire jaggers like you will with wire rope.

There are some new products out there that are being used to replace wire rope. One brand I have used is Amsteel Blue. It was initially developed for tug boats as it has the distinct advantage of being able to float. It is stronger than steel. Pricey but more than worth it. I replaced the wire rope on a couple of my skidders with it and it changed the whole outlook on dragging cable. The stuff weighs a fraction of wire rope and by the end of the day you are in a lot better shape than if you have been dragging cable all day. My choker setters developed a whole new outlook on life! 😀

All of this stuff is available from an outfit like Baileys.

[Mark Cowdrey]

George,

The bobsled idea sounds like a good idea in your situation but I just thought I would mention the 2 choker hitch for getting the butts of big logs off the ground more effectively when using an arch. I was amazed when I saw it done for the first time at Carl’s at his 2-day Fall event several years ago.

Set each of two choker hooks down low on opposite sides of the log and run the slack up to the arch. The effect is like a “cradle”. Since you are lifting from the bottom of the log, you have more chain to provide lift as you draw the load.

Mark

[simon lenihan]

bergan wheel sledge from norway, capable of moving very large logs.
simon lenihan

[Rod44]

Once you get them to where you can get at them better, you can use a gizmo like this haul them. Even Haflingers can haul a big load then. Out here it is just “sorta like” real logging.:)

[Gabe Ayers]

Good comment Mark, I forgot to mention we always cradle hitch all our big logs.

[Plowboy]

I have used an arch to move tree length hardwood long distances. It was a high arch that backed over the butt end of the log. A railroad chain winch was mounted in front of the drivers seat above the arch frame which looked like a steering wheel and you wrap the chain and crank up the log suspending it off the ground and go. These carts are however not safe in the woods on uneven ground. It’s a long way up and can be a long way down if you tip it over. They did work well for moving those 40ft hard maple, ash, and oak logs a mile down the trail. The pair of mares I learned to drive solo on did this all winter carrying foals on a mostly downhill skid.

[Carl Russell]

Another method that I have used is what I call a bunk cart. I apologize that I don’t have any photos, but I did scan in a sketch. I built mine out of an old truck rear end. I haven’t used it in years, so it has pretty much decayed, but I did use it one year on really big white pine cabin logs. See if you can understand my cave drawings.
[ATTACH]743.jpg” />
Sorry. I scanned it in and rotated it. The jpeg is oriented correctly on my computer, but comes through sideways in this application. If you click on the image a second time you can zoom in and get a better view. Just turn yur computer on its edge.

Carl

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