Suggestions and or Ideas

[Y 4 Ranch]

My problem is in making a decision of some serious impact to my family, I’ll lay out the perameters and I look forward to others insight.

I own 143 acres of which 70 are tillable, I farm several neighbors places for the next 2 miles north of my place. The largest fields are in the 30 acre range with the total tillable of 180 acres, including mine. I have 40 acres of hay ground within that same area, we had 250 acres but it was 25 miles away and a neighbor of the landlord offered more money, so we lost it, didn’t even get a chance to counter bid. I rent pastures from around the 3 county area for grass in the summer.

I have 40 head of cows that weigh 1100 pounds, Hereford X Angus with the oldest cows being 2004 models. 4 Belgians that are used everyday to feed hay to the cows and 14 other pack and saddle horses; then 15 head fo Texel ewes.

I have a full line of draft machinery to include 2, 2 btm gang plows, 2 singles, 1 7ft tandem disc, 1 single disc, 2 spreaders, 1 drag, 1 model LL 7 ft Deere press drill ground lift, 2 McD # 9 5ft mowers, 2 MN #4 5 ft mowers, 2 Int dump rakes, MN 6ft binder, Huber Thresher and various wagons, bobsleds ( one with Hydrafork), gravity boxes.

I also have a full line of conventional machinery to handle haying in round and small bale form, small grain production and livestock feeding. So equipment wouldn’t be an issue using either method or combination as to which I currently use. I also have a 16 year old son who can harness and drive a team about as well as I can and even more important, he has a desire to do the work, enjoys it even.

We sell our small grains to a local organic co-op and usually retain the hay for personal use. We have a web site that we sell direct through, LocalHarvest.org and extra livestock or stock that has been treated for something go through the local sale barn. All of that being said here’s my problem.

I know I can retain more of the income from the different enterprizes, grain, beef and lamb, by using the horses more. We’ve already made some concessions to go even more, but, I’m still reluctant to sell off the conventional equipment. I have a desire to do all of the small grain work with the horses up to harvest then use a combine. I want to use the horses for haying, up to putting it in a stack, to which I would use an old truck with a farmhand stacker on it. I work about 2.5 days a week year round and receive a fair pay check for it. Does anyone truely believe I can pull it off? Is there any changes to my current situation, i.e. more drafts to accomplish this work or sell off some of the other livestock? I realize that probably no one on this line knows me or my qualifications to do this work in this mannor but I’ll ask you to leave that out of the equasion unless there is a specific question.

I’ve many things to learn, I don’t know everything and I try to learn something new each day. This problem has caused me to even wonder why I got back into it after I got home from overseas. I make a very good wage and don’t need the money from the farm to feed my family, but I want the farm to make it’s own way and we were very close this year. If the recession had’nt messed with calf prices I think we’d have been OK. I need this to be as bomb proof as possible and I think that I’m on the right track, I’d like to eventually sell off more of the conventional side, but in the back of my mind I’m getting older and my require more of the conventional side than I think I’ll need.

e-nuf rambling, questions? Statements?

[J-L]

Sounds like you’re set up real well. As far as the cattle are concerned you have plenty of horsepower. You may want to put a few of your pack animals in harness during haying.
You mention the hydrafork so I assume you are wanting to put your hay up loose. For 40 cows I think you could do it. You will need a push rake unless you’re going to push it to the stack with your loader. Mowing and raking won’t be a problem for you.
These calf prices won’t stay down forever (I hope), but it sounds like you aren’t to dependant on them anyway. You at least have some diversity with grain. Lambs many times are up when beef is down also.
Not having much experience with the grain farming I won’t give any advice there.
Yes you can do it, just make the commitment to it. If you sell off that equipment you won’t have a choice! Go for it, I say.

[Y 4 Ranch]

I thought so, but there are so many people in the conventional side that brow beats you into thinking your ideas are dumb or just plain wrong. I’m learning about the grain side, last year was my first year and did far better than I thought it would; so I thought we’d expand that a little. The only money I owe really outside the land is the conventional equipment, with it gone so goes the debt.

I like the idea of using some of the lighter horses on the haying crew, ( couldn’t see the forest for all the trees in the way) shoulda crossed my mind but didn’t. I looked 15 years for a good hydrafork and found one in Timber Lake SD in summer of 06, I hadn’t used one for years and hadn’t seen one in MN for sure. I have an old 1.5 ton truck that has the motor reversed with 2 transmissions and a Farmhand loader with hay basket for stacking hay. It goes like a raped ape if you let it, rides nicer than the tractor and is easier to replace or repair than the NH 7740SLE. BUT the wife don’t like it as it is lacking some safety features that she feels it needs, but it does work nice.

[near horse]

Hi Y 4,

Can you clarify your question for me? Do you want to know if you can continue farming the ground you have but use horses rather than tractor/combine … and maintain the same level of income? 180 acres sounds like a lot if it is all under tillage in the same year.

Before selling off the other equipment it seems logical to try and “phase into” the whole thing. Strictly use horses on a fixed amount of ground say 50 acres and see how that goes. It could give you a better idea of how do-able the whole 180 would be. One thing I would also look at is how much debt I’m carrying in the conventional equipment. It certainly is comforting to have something on hand if you need to get harvest in quickly ….. That said, it is hard to justify having a $40,000 combine to cut the acreage you have in grain (proverbial $100 saddle on a $50 horse).

BUT you have the hardest part of the small farming thing on your side – you have found a market. Also, think about using your horses as part of the marketing of your grains, beef etc. Kudos to you – glad to hear someone is making a go of it.

[near horse]

I forgot to add this to my last post. Have you thought about using your horses with a pull behind combine (old Allis Chalmers, Massey Ferguson, and International) rather than a thresher and binder setup. I’ve not used them (binder/thresher) but they appear to require a lot of man power (not just horses). That can be a limitation. Here, folks can’t even find help to haul in hay. They’d rather work at McDonalds. Sad.:(

[CharlyBonifaz]

Here, folks can’t even find help to haul in hay. They’d rather work at McDonalds. Sad.

can’t you make it an “event”, have a real barbeque after the work is done? a bonfire and sit together……

[near horse]

Heck, they’re getting paid and won’t do it. The most reliable crew was a guy about 70 yrs old w/ more horses than hay so he hauled hay for shares and his helper was his 10 yr old 90# grandson. As you know, it’s hot dirty physical work. No takers. Food, fun, beer, money. Maybe with the crappy economy. Hell, Bernard Madeoff and his ilk should be required to come do some real work to see what EARNED INCOME is all about.:D

[Robert MoonShadow]

Geoff ~ “Food, fun,…money” ? hey, I’m not far from you: check w/ me next time = if I’m not in the woods building trails, count me in! Never have enough of any of those 3! (Keep the beer for yourself… I don’t drink). I also barter…(think donkey-sized anything!) every dollar made or saved gets me one step closer to MoonShadow Farm. 😎

[Carl Russell]

Hi Mike, I am a SMALL scale hillside farmer/logger/homesteader so my input into your query may be misplaced, but I think you are on the right track.

I have serious questions about the value of holding onto internal combustion power units very far into the future. This is obviously a personal call, but it seems clear you are weighing the options. If you hold onto this value to use them to your advantage, you may well hold onto them until they have no value to anyone else, as in resale value. But there is also the difficulty in transitioning completely to animal power. I think this is the BIG question we are all facing. I would just throw out that as you make the transition, you also, as has been suggested, keep in mind how to downsize to more appropriately match the animal power. (If things continue as they are, though, there may be folks lining the road looking to work for their food.:eek:)

About the value added for using horses, I wonder how effective that will be in the size of the market you have, but we have found it to work at our scale, especially as we coin it “Post Peak Oil Produce”, rather than wistfully pushing the pastoral view of horse in harness. (Our garlic and potatoes come out of ground cultivated for over 20 years with horse and hand only)
The real value in the future to using horses, I think you already understand, it’s just finding the right balance of income and expenses so that you are prepared for that future when it gets here.

Congratulations on having a son who wants to work with you. That is by far one of your greatest assets, but I can tell you know that.

I can’t tell you whether you can do it or not, but I can tell you not to listen to those who tell you that you can’t.

Good luck, and keep us up-to-date.

Carl

[Iron Rose]

I know that there are some people out there that use only draft power and thats great. Trouble is that it takes more help than with machinery. A number of operations that use horses are also keep tractors for heavy tillage and loader work. On some operations they have got rid of most of there harvesting equipment(just to expensive to maintain for the limited amount of use) and hire a custom custom operator when needed(less expensive in the long run)

Horses are used when ever posssible for plantiing ,cultivating, haying, feeding and anything else that is needed. A added benefit of useing horses especialy in this time of low horse prices is green broke horses are cheap but well broke horses are holding there value. So the sale of a few broke horses is added income.

As far as all the people that tell you cant do it my answer to them is to ask them HOW MUCH MONEY DO I OWE YOU if I dont dont worry about how I run my operation. Usually shuts them up.

Good Luck
Dan

[Y 4 Ranch]

First off thankyou to all for your input, we do appreciate it.

As for tillable ground, we would only keep about 50 into small grain if that, ultimately I’d like to try and figure out a rotation of crops that would minimize the tillage portion. I plan on planting, Rye, Hairy Vetch, Buckwheat, Oats, Wheat and Barley, also throwing in a legume like Chickling Vetch. On some of he pasture ground we have introduced some Kura clover with some varieties of grasses to mitigate bloat. I plan on keeping enough seed back from each crop to reseed the following year; that will help I know; some of the 180 would be hayed.

Someone mentioned a pull type combine, I know of exactly what you speak, but to find one around here is near impossible. I have looked for one a long while but have only found ones ready for the scrap pile. I have an old JD 55 square back with a pickup header and 2 others for parts from my neighbor sitting back in the woods; it runs real good but it seems to have some holes or I don’t have it set right. As of last year, that was the first I’ve ever touched a combine of any type. I have an operators manual and have studied it quite long hours but some of the things seem to be amiss as I frequently have no idea of their terminology.

I had planned on keeping the tractor around for loader work and have considered the use of the tillage equipment to expedite the tillage process and combine for the harvest. We’d use the horses for the planting, haying and feeding. That’s basically the plan, but we all know a plan is just a plan and subject to change, I like the old axium of “If you fail to plan then you plan to fail” I don’t know who originally said it but they knew what they were talking about.

Mike

[dominiquer60]

Sometimes the old pull type combines show up in auctions in the northeast. Smaller farms have a tendency to harbor smaller equipment. We found a Massey 35 at an auction just down the road at the fairgrounds, drove it home that day for $50, what a steal. There must be something in PA, they are the mecca of farm equipment in the northeast, it is a haul, but it is what you make of it.

[Does’ Leap]

Mike:

Seems like part of your question in your original post involves the possibility of making a living off of your farm. Many of the questions regarding the trade-offs between horses and machinery are moot if you operate at a loss or break even (that is if you want to make a living off the farm). Even if you cut your costs with horses, you may be cutting your gross income as well (maybe not).

My wife and I make our living off of milking 40-50 goats and processing that milk into cheese. One of the ways I was able to leave my job and go full time was doing a “gross margin analysis” on our different farming ventures at the time which – in addition to goats – included lamb and beef. This was a powerful tool that enabled us to determine what aspects of our farm were truly generating income and what enterprises were losing $. We ended up getting rid of the lamb and beef and concentrating on the goats as well as raising a dozen hogs or so off the whey from the cheese operation. This move enabled us to concentrate our limited labor resources to our most profitable venture which improved to goat cheese aspect of our farm b/c we were dedicating more resources toward it.

Gross margin analysis in a nutshell looks at the income and costs from each farm enterprise (your labor is a cost), putting aside overhead (mortgage, taxes, etc.) After you pay your labor and cash costs for each enterprise (in our case goats, sheep, cattle), you need to cover depreciation, opportunity cost, and inflation. If there is $ at the end, you made a profit.

It is certainly a little more complicated and there is lots of information out there, but it is a very useful process if you want move toward a more profitable business. There is a good article on gross-margin analysis in The Stockman Grass Farmer this month (good magazine).

Of course, this is not all about profit and money or I would still be teaching high school.

Good luck with your farming venture.

George

P.S. How about packaging some of your grains into a hot cereal mix?

[Y 4 Ranch]

I’m truly impressed with the amount of information that’s flowing here. The goal of the operation at this point is to get it profitable and keep it profitable, I’ve set the time table for this year. We diversified into three profit centers for a couple of reasons. The biggest reason for the lack of profitablity is that we chose to pay higher on our debt load for a shorter amount of time, the thing to me is to have everything out of debt by the time I retire,( from any outside pay checks) and I am planning to do that at 55, so working backwards that leaves me not much time to square this away. If I’m out of debt I can retire to the ranch and it’ll make my living.

Beef has been in my family since the dawn of time as I know it and I know that I should look at it as a business but there is an attachment that I really can’t explain. One major part of it is that beef can be profitable and has been, some good years, some bad, usually a seven year cycle but the last cycle was an issue. My son has great interest in the beef operation, at 16 he has a nice herd of BWF/ Black cows in addition to mine and he has the hope of running all of them sometime in the future. He’s worked hard and has earned the right to have that option, besides it keeps him working toward a goal and hopefully it’ll help pay for some of his college.

The sheep cycle is much the same as the beef but at the opposite, beef up, sheep down,sheep up, beef down. I don’t have enough of them to balance out the cattle end of it but I think in the long run we’ll be there. The original idea was to run as many as we could for our land and settings to offset my wifes pay check. The second part of my goals was to get her home from work a.s.a.p., she loves the farm but working 40 miles from home 4 days a week is a necessity at this time but I think we could make her transition to home within the next year or two providing I get a handle on this. The other reasons have to do with rotational grazing with the cattle.

The small grain is something new, being organic really did improve the farms bottom line this year, i.e. 2 gravity boxes brought in over $3000.00 on rye; from seed we kept back. Even with the high fuel prices this year our labor incuded we came out pretty good. That is the reason for the first thread, if I can lower my inputs even more by the use of the horses more could I handle the work load? I think that I’ll keep teaching, great benefit package in addition to a pay check for only a couple days a week with summer and winters usually off.

I do subscribe to the Stockman Grass Farmer, but this month ended up in the recycling and disposed before I got to even see the second page. Mom had help cleaning and it got pitched, I usually save every one and Mom knows it but sometimes the help doesn’t, so this month I missed. I will agree with you it is a great paper, I particularly pay attention to Steve Kenyon’s articles about winter grazing.

[Gabe Ayers]

Y 4,

I think you can do it, you are already doing it to a degree and every loaded step your animals take instead of another revolution of an I.C. engine is a plus for your independence and the planets survival. Everyone on this board probably has some fossil fuel dependency, I know we do. It seems almost impossible under current conditions to operate without it, although many believe it is not impossible and live toward the end of complete fossil fuel energy independence. It seems appropriate that we be weaned from the
addiction to oil and not shut off instantly and working toward the freedom of
self sufficiency would naturally be a gradual process.

One big problem is that we don’t have large families nowadays that are centered on the land for our livings. That anthropological culture is the key to continuity on the farm. In the absence of that biological family often through careful selection and trial periods some apprentices could become
part of the labor needed to do things with less oil and more human effort along with animal power. That is an extended family approach and is not easy, but could be a path to expanding the work force and sharing the experience of what could truly be a “good life”. It will be a tired life, with calloused hands, sore backs and weathered complexions on the folks that do the work. Most of the wrinkles will reflect deep smile lines.

Getting older and less physically capable is definitely something we all deal with, some sooner than later. So passing the knowledge and inspiration of how and why to do this type of work can start now. Since the labor saving machines and fossil fuel is not going to disappear overnight using leased or rented equipment from within the community is a nice transition phase and is what most of us do, that are actually making a living with the animals as a key component to survival economically.

Differentiation of source methods is a growing niche in our modern world.

Organics are now closer to mainstream than ever and in this country we believe that the market will fix everything so educating and demonstrating to the public that alternative methods of addressing human needs is important, even if only on a percentage basis at the moment.

Defining yourself and your work and products as being different is important.
Any other definition may reduce and marginalize your work beneath what it actually is. Ignore those that detract from your efforts to be different and work within the inspiration of your own sense of doing the best you can.

Green is the new cool and maybe will eventually become a common value in society and market, so that could be the code to cracking the combination of the lock the dominant paradigm has on the world economy. In the current economic conditions all businesses are looking for ways to sell their services and goods and this “green” approach is being spun by everyone from Wal-Mart to Mom and Pop grocery stores. It is promising that “green” is less threatening than it was a decade ago, so we should stick together to work with others of similar mindset, principles and purpose.

Keep up your good work. I suspect you represent many in similar situations so don’t feel alone or isolated in this quest.

Be prepared for dismissal by some. Remember the old saying about how to tell who the real leaders are: they are the ones with arrows or bullet holes in them from all directions….

*A note is that on the page/post about the “Cultural Missionary Work” there are hot links to media about that project and not one person has commented on it, so I suspect it hasn’t been seen among all the good information and exchanges on this site. It is an example of how we may be paid well for our services with animal power. I think most DAP members will enjoy it.

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