Tedding Technique

[Does’ Leap]

Everyone I talk to has a different idea of when and how to tedd. There was a good conversation on DAP last year on tedding. One of the things I got out of it (from one of Tim H’s posts) was that you get the biggest bang for you buck the earlier you tedd (i.e. the higher the moisture). Around here, all of the folks (with vastly more knowledge than me) say that you should wait to tedd until the dew is off. Any opinions on this? Wouldn’t this contradict the getting the statement above?

George

[karl t pfister]

George , I like to ted a couple times the day of mowing and less as the hay gets drier .(less leaf loss) on baling day depending on the day I don’t like to ted unless the weather is pushing us. There are a million theories out there ,they all work ?
My motivation is the quickest has the most nutrition and least leaf lost, good luck Karl

[mitchmaine]

george, i think the dew and the green of the grass are two different moistures. waiting for the dew to come off keeps you from flipping it back and under the hay you are tedding trapping it under the hay. that said, i brought in some yesterday mowed sunday. a day shorter than i expected. i kicked it each day and i think i kicked it too much. it was starting to loose some color already. it was nw winds everyday and thats tops. so maybe it was making faster than i expected. the next batch, i may let it lay the first day and ted it the second day. its kinda like making syrup. the longer you go into the season the less potential for good syrup (hay). i don’t think the same rules apply for june or august hay. you have to feel your way through it. you win some and lose some. good luck with it and let us know what you find out. mitch

[Donn Hewes]

It is really hard to make rules, as the moisture in the grass, soil, and air all figure in how fast it will dry just sitting there. I don’t like to ted or rake with dew on it (one exception: when it is already too dry, maybe mid summer, I will start to rake before all the dew is gone) . I have had days were I spend hours tedding just to realize the hay in front of me is just as dry as the hay I have been tedding. Other days you don’t ted and the hay never is really dry enough to bale. I have made 1200 so far, but they have been like pulling teeth. One lame horse, one flat tire on a hay wagon, one knotter fixed (knock on wood) and most hay was rained on once. I have been mowing on predicted rain just so I could ted and bale on predicted sunny days. The barn is filling fast though!

[Tim Harrigan]

@Does’ Leap 27761 wrote:

Everyone I talk to has a different idea of when and how to tedd… Around here, all of the folks (with vastly more knowledge than me) say that you should wait to tedd until the dew is off. Any opinions on this?…
George

George, why is it that they say you should wait until the dew is off before tedding? I am not being critical of that approach, just want to make sure I understand the logic. In some cases such as what Donn mentioned when the hay is well along in the drying process it is actually a good thing to have dew on because the moisture toughens the hay and reduces leaf shatter.

I also agree with Donn that so many things interact to influence hay drying that any set sequence of field operations will not always hold true. Yield, type of hay, humidity, temperature, cloud cover, soil moisture, wind, slope of the ground, its a little different every time. It seems like rather than trying to lay out what sequence of operations to do and when, it is better to think in terms of the conditions you are trying to create, and why.

Think of the cut hay field as a solar collector. You need the heat and energy from the sun to pump the moisture out of the mown hay so you want to capture as much sunlight as possible. That is why a wide windrow is important. Sicklebar mowers lay a wide windrow but they tend to lay the hay in a nice, orderly fashion that does not allow much air movement under and through the hay, and it prevents sunlight from penetrating and warming the windrow. Restricted air movement holds the moisture escaping from the ground and hay crop in the windrow and keeps the humidity in the windrow high, sort of a greenhouse effect. This delays drying because even if the air is dry, the humidity in the windrow is high. The fastest drying will be when there is a big difference in the moisture of the hay and the moisture of the air in the windrow. You need good air movement through the windrow to move the moisture out that has been removed from the hay and keep the humidity in the windrow as low as possible.

There is no question that in most cases tedding will be most effective in the first cutting. The crop yield is usually the heaviest, there is usually more moisture in the soil, air temperature is not as high as a second cutting in July or August, and weather patterns can be more variable in the spring so forecasts are less reliable. So tedding soon after cutting spreads the crop over the entire solar collector, including the tire tracks. It loosens and disorients the stems so air can circulate and remove the moisture that is lost from the ground and from the hay crop.

So when and how often should tedding be done? Probably soon after cutting a high-yielding first cutting to create optimal conditions right away. How about second cutting? Not as clear cut, usually a lighter yielding crop, drier soil, warmer air, longer days, extended dry periods are more common and predictable. Might not gain much other than more work and more crop loss, but you have to look at the conditions and make that call. If it saves you 1/2 day that can mean a lot of hay in the barn, but it will not often be the differenct between rain and no rain. Ted after rain? Probably has value if the hay is matted down and the windrow environment is poor for drying. I would tend to ted sooner rather than later so the hay is tough, particularly if the rain came later in the drying cycle. Ted a crop two times? Why? Will this somehow improve drying conditions? Are you sure?

The regret (cost) for tedding under conditions that provide little benefit is that it is an energy drain on you and your team at a time when you really need to conserve energy wherever you can. And, it causes leaf shatter and loss of the most palatable and nutritious part of the hay. But there are times when drying conditions are not great (cool, high humidity) and it can be hard not to do something, particularly when that tedder is sitting there…. The question is will the tedder create significantly better drying conditions that will offset the regret for tedding? The tedder itself will not dry the hay. Will the tedder warm or dry the air?

The application of energy with draft animals is a challenge. An example of that challenge is the problem Donn had with his ground driven tedder in the heavy, first cutting hay crop. If you have a tractor to power the tedder you can vary the ground speed and rotor RPM to avoid the loss of traction. A powered forcart can also help in that regard. Pure animal power has limits when it bumps up against tools designed for tractors.

Donn, I am really curious about the draft requirements for your ground-driven pto cart. I have a new pull meter working now. Are you going to bring it to NEAPFD? I think I will be there this year.

I wonder if it would be possible to set up some hay drying trials to compare a few different approaches to manipulating hay such as tedding, etc. It would involve setting aside a few different areas of the field for different operations or timing of operations and then monitoring it closely by measuring crop moisture every three hours or so from cutting to baling. It would have to be next year probably, first cutting would be best. It would take some effort but it would put some real numbers on the concepts that we have been discussing. Any interest in that?

[Carl Russell]

Around here, all of the folks (with vastly more knowledge than me) say that you should wait to tedd until the dew is off.

@Tim Harrigan 27786 wrote:

George, why is it that they say you should wait until the dew is off before tedding? ….
…..

As I posted in the other thread I haven’t put up hay in several years, but I always tedded my hay.

My take on the dew question is that when the dew has burned off the sun is warm enough to create the warm air that you want to catch in the loosened hay. I don’t think it has as much to do with the moisture as it does with the warmth of the air.

I agree with Tim’s assessment of the energy output equation. I don’t think you tedd hay just to tedd it, you need to tedd it when it makes sense, so that the energy spent is well-used. In the perfect situation I only tedded once, and used the rake for the last tedding/windrowing, but in most instances I would tedd twice, maybe three times.

I almost always cut my hay in the afternoon, not just to catch the day’s growth, but to let the hay naturally wilt overnight. I would also mow hay on a rainy afternoon before a few good days. I would tedd the next morning (after the dew was off), then most likely again in the afternoon. The third day I may tedd again, dependiing on how heavy the crop, then rake and pick up in the evening.

I also found that if I windrowed my hay before a rain, I could tedd it out to dry, and get very little spoilage, and certainly less bleaching. If it was left too long it would heat and mold, but I usually got some pretty good green hay, even after being rained on.

I also always cut small batches, so that I could do the tedding etc. in a reasonable amount of time, and get good hay. I learned this from an old farmer I worked for in the 80’s. He never cut more than 500 bales at a time (using tractors). That way he could tedd it enough times, or rake it up before rain, or handle it however it needed, because he always believed that good hay was better than a lot of spoiled hay.

I also think that tedding tends to be less of a necessity when using mower conditioners.

Carl

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Tim, I doubt my Ground drive cart will make the trip as I have already committed to bringing my motorized PTO cart. If it fits on the trailer I might throw it on. I would be interested in working on a project to measure the drying effects of different haying techniques. Probably hard to do it at NEAPFD, but we could just set up some on farm tests.

I think rather than rules a lot of farmers have preferences. Often their preferences are a reflection of the equipment they have as much as any particular hay benefit. A lot of tractor farmers like to bale hay right into the dry early evening ( 7 pm.?) as a horse farmer I hate that. I would rather start raking at noon, and baling at two or three and be done by five. Maybe unload some wagons. If I time my mowing, tedding, and raking right, I can usually make that happen. I like to mow hay late in the afternoon, unless it will be too hot. With two teams and two seven foot mowers it doesn’t take very long to mow what I want usually. Since I am mowing in the afternoon, I almost never ted the same day. It seems to me that if I ted at 3pm or later, there aren’t very many hours of benefit before the evening knocks it down again. This refers to Tim’s comment about maximizing the effort of your horses and teamsters. That is also why I am interested on my larger tedder. I can mow fields (and rake, and bale) that will take me four hours to ted with the grim tedder. If I start at 11 because of a heavy dew I will still be tedding at 3pm. The first half the field had a different drying day than the second. I guess I could get another grimm tedder. I would like to keep my tedding to once, but now that I am using the sickle bar mower instead of the haybine, that may not allways be possible. On a side note my neighbors thought I would be sorry I sold my haybine, but so far I haven’t missed it for a minute.

[mitchmaine]

everyones comments have something important to add to this thread. i been thinking alot about things that have been said. not very long ago, hay was made with a knife and a rake. tedders were only brought out to flip hay after a rain, mostly to break open a windrow. you’d mow and let hay lay and wilt, and rake the next day and let the wind make it. and when the dew was off the ground the next day rerake over to a dry spot and continue drying til it had a rustle and was ready. since then, crimpers, conditioners and tedders and balers have developed to bring hay in earlier and presumably greener, all with the effect of beating the grass to peices, shattering the stalks and so on in the process. so it seems like the same old story. we give up quality for quantity and the result is being able to put up more hay quicker and thats great, but some here, not me, still must put up loose hay. we used to have a ac rotary baler that made a 40 lb. round bale, it took 3 balers to keep one going, but when you rolled out a bale and the heads of the grass and clover were still blossomed and sweet. anyway, just ramblin’ here.

[Carl Russell]

@mitchmaine 27792 wrote:

… so it seems like the same old story. we give up quality for quantity and the result is being able to put up more hay quicker and thats great, but some here, not me, still must put up loose hay. we used to have a ac rotary baler that made a 40 lb. round bale, it took 3 balers to keep one going, but when you rolled out a bale and the heads of the grass and clover were still blossomed and sweet. anyway, just ramblin’ here.

I never baled my hay. Cut with a sickle-bar and put up loose, especially if I was able to keep it from spoiling in the field, that hay was far superior to any I have bought in bales, and especially crimped hay. Sweet, green, wholesome. In January, in a cold barn, those animals would dive into that hay with alacrity. It was like I had brought a fork-full of summer into the barn.

Grazing and clipping all the grass we grow now, but I’m looking at possibly starting to cut hay again within the next few years as grass production improves…. This thread has me thinking.

Carl

[near horse]

I’ve been reading some more “stuff” on the benefits (or not) of tending hay. Most of the material is looking at commercial tractor farmed alfalfa operations, so the value of various practices will vary but here’s my take.

1) In modern ops with multiple cuttings, the value of tending was highest in first and last cuts – presumably due to lower daytime temps, angle of sun etc and, in the first cutting, moisture of the stand.

2) These guys were tedding to toss hay out of a swath or windrow left by the haybine/swather etc to: increase the drying surface (obvious) but ALSO, in the early season TO MOVE THE DRYING HAY ONTO DRY GROUND. Apparently, after even a few hours of exposure, ground surface moisture will diminish on the cut ground if there’s not hay laying on it.

3) Most suggest tedding (again more important in alfalfa) after a few hours so that the crop has wilted but is not very dry at all – to reduce leaf shatter.

4) Obvious again to you experienced folks, although we call them all tedders, the different styles do actually provide different options/applications. Example – kickers, old and Grimm style are more “fluffers” when compared to those newer “basket style” (like Krone). The basket style can spread your hay out rather than just fluffing it up to allow more air movement.

Dew can work for or against you depending on the situation. If you’re dealing with something that’s pretty dry, I think handling (baling/raking) hay in the AM w/ dew on can help reduce leaf loss/shatter. Also, remember there’s 2 general moisture locations were talking about when curing hay – internal (stuff that was in the plant at cutting) and external (stuff on the outside of the plant – dew, rain etc). The internal stuff is the more challenging one – the outside stuff will evaporate pretty rapidly given the right conditions.

So, this year my plan is cut, let it wilt down some (say a few hours) and tedd. After that, we’ll see.

I might even try running my swather over a strip and then tedding that to see how it works. I’ve only got a kicker so we’ll see.
Anyway, here are the links to the articles I looked at: (can you say obsessive/compulsive disorder?)

http://hayandforage.com/mag/farming_try_tedding/

http://www.haytalk.com/forums/f2/tedding-questions-1130/

http://www.progressiveforage.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1006:0507-fg-test-your-tedding-know-how-what-you-need-to-produce-high-quality-hay&catid=90:equipment&Itemid=124

[near horse]

@mitchmaine 27792 wrote:

everyones comments have something important to add to this thread. i been thinking alot about things that have been said. not very long ago, hay was made with a knife and a rake. tedders were only brought out to flip hay after a rain, mostly to break open a windrow. you’d mow and let hay lay and wilt, and rake the next day and let the wind make it. and when the dew was off the ground the next day rerake over to a dry spot and continue drying til it had a rustle and was ready. since then, crimpers, conditioners and tedders and balers have developed to bring hay in earlier and presumably greener, all with the effect of beating the grass to peices, shattering the stalks and so on in the process. so it seems like the same old story. we give up quality for quantity and the result is being able to put up more hay quicker and thats great, but some here, not me, still must put up loose hay. we used to have a ac rotary baler that made a 40 lb. round bale, it took 3 balers to keep one going, but when you rolled out a bale and the heads of the grass and clover were still blossomed and sweet. anyway, just ramblin’ here.

I hear ya Mitch but I think there would be an argument made that rapid drying of hay traps/ preserves the nutrients in the hay and crimping/rolling/macerating the plant speeds up drying.

Maybe Tim can wade in here, but as I recall, the thinking is that right after cutting the plant down, it continues to undergo respiration (using up energy that’s in the cells) until the moisture conditions in the plant are low enough that the plant ceases respiration. How long that takes can, theoretically, impact the nutritional value of the hay. Is that anywhere close, Tim?

BTW – IMO and experience, the difference for me is getting the stuff dried, baled and out the elements before mother nature decides to mess things up.

[mitchmaine]

i hear you geoff. i’m part of the machinery program. i think crimping and splitting the stem is like splitting your firewood. it cures way faster cut and split than tree length. amazingly helpful. its just that i wonder about all the goodness in leaves and heads scattered on the ground and left behind by the pickup on the baler. and the smell of carls hay. i miss the smell of sweet grass sometimes. mitch i also am interested in what tim says. the science is what you base the art on, true?

[Tim Harrigan]

@near horse 27800 wrote:

Maybe Tim can wade in here, but as I recall, the thinking is that right after cutting the plant down, it continues to undergo respiration (using up energy that’s in the cells) until the moisture conditions in the plant are low enough that the plant ceases respiration. How long that takes can, theoretically, impact the nutritional value of the hay. Is that anywhere close, Tim?

Yes, the plant continues to respire after it is cut until it gets down to around 40% moisture but it respires at a decreasing rate as it wilts. That means it loses moisture fairly quickly right after it is cut but the rate of moisture loss continues to drop until it finally stops. So there is not a big difference between conditioned and non-conditioned hay over the first few hours and if the crop will be ensiled there is usually little benefit to conditioning. Conditioning does make a big difference in the later part of the drying process.

Plant respiration after cutting is a source of dry matter loss that we have some control over. When it is cut the crop sort of starts to consume itself by converting carbohydrates, sugars and starch (good stuff) to carbon dioxide, heat and water. From a quality point Losses are pretty typically 1-7% of the crop, 4% loss is normal. Respiration causes moisture loss but increases fiber and reduces energy in the hay. The moisture loss is through stomates, pores that open in the sunlight for moisture loss to cool the plant and carbon dioxide uptake. They close at night and when the crop is under moisture stress.

So to minimize the dry matter loss from respiration and retain the quality of the standing crop it is best to dry the crop quickly. So in the big picture the drying rate is restricted by the plant itself, the structure of the swath (such as a high yielding crop in a narrow swath) and moisture in the soil, but most often the weather is most limiting.

I was at the MODA gathering this weekend and I found out that Tillers now has an I&J ground drive forecart so I hope I can do some work with that over the coming weeks. They still have a lot of hay standing because it has been so wet.

[Tim Harrigan]

I was thinking about the cut hay field as a solar collector today when hoeing my sweet corn so I had to rush in and calculate how much water has to be removed from the crop from cutting to baling to make good hay. If we keep it simple and assume the cut hay is 80% moisture and it needs to dry down to 18% moisture for stable storage we need to evaporate or remove 5,900 pounds of water for each ton of hay gathered up at 18% moisture. That is more than 700 gallons per ton of hay. A decent first cutting hay crop is about 2.5 tons per acre of hay, so that is about 1750 gallons of water per acre that needs to evaporate. That is why it is so important to have air moving around the crop to carry that moisture away.

In terms of the solar collector and energy use, it takes about 1000 BTU to evaporate 1 pound of water. We have to evaporate about 14750 lbs of water per acre for that 2.5 ton hay crop. So we need to collect about 14.75 million BTU’s per acre to dry the hay crop from 80% to 18%. Rock on, sun!

And, this does not account for the drying of the re-wetting from dew that usually happens overnight which could easily double or triple that number! Of course the drying process is more complicated than just evaporation but it is interesting to think about what is really happening out there in a few days time.

[near horse]

Hi Tim,

I have a question from your earlier post about DM and quality losses during curing of hay. Is the increase in fiber actually more fiber being synthesized or is it more likely a matter of the loss/consumption of other components resulting in the fiber content being a larger proportion of the remaining DM?

“When it is cut the crop sort of starts to consume itself by converting carbohydrates, sugars and starch (good stuff) to carbon dioxide, heat and water.”

“Respiration causes moisture loss but increases fiber and reduces energy in the hay.”

Another question – since there is some heating as the grass dries down early on, and you do have carbs & proteins etc still available, is there much if any Maillard rxn going on? Or is the temp too low?

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