they just arnt the same.

[PeytonM]

Well as some of you know I have a team of Belgians, I had them at a friends place for about 3 weeks till things at my place were set up for them and we rode them ( about a 8 mile right) to my place. it was a cool day I fed them good the night before and they had plenty of water, I worked with them every day before, I didnt work them really hard like they could been but It still got them out to work some.

well we rode them and they would have a half trot up hills and walk the rest of the way, I wasn’t in a big rush. it took us 4 hours roughly to do it. I kept them out of the pen for a little bit and just walked them around for a little bit then put them in the pen with a little water and a small sqr of hay to share between the two of them. that was last sunday, its 4 days now and they are kind of limping around and just acting weird and not really eating that much… what would be their problem. I mean they eat then the one lays down and the other stands by him. they dont play like they did, would they be depressed over the move? or could they be sore from the long walk?

I dont know what their deal is, I didnt see how that walk could effect them like it has.

thanks for the help

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Peyton, Here are some random thoughts, not sure they are worth much. Are you sure anything is wrong at all? When they were at the other place you may not of had as much time to just watch them hang out. Were they out in a larger area there and a smaller paddock now? Hay and feed the same? Are they drinking plenty of water? Sometime a new water source can be tricky. Hook them up; ride them or drive them, and that will help convince you if they are all right or not. Horses do take a few day to settle into a new place, but usually that has more to do with meeting strange new horses. I bet they are fine now, if not I would have them checked.

[PeytonM]

They know were the water is, and they are out in the open, not as big as the other spot but still good sized place. Im gonna walk them around some tomorrow after school only because I don’t have enough time today. I was by them every day when they were at my friends place. They were really playfull the one horse is like him self just slower moving now. He walks up to you and rubs on you like your a fence post un till you pet him. The other one just lays around… im think they are just sore from the walk…

[grey]

Hey friend, I hope you don’t take this wrong but I hate to see you go down a tough road if there’s some way to avoid it. Horses being worked in harness need a strong leader that they can look up to… having a horse that rubs on you means that he doesn’t respect you like he ought. Demanding attention like that is cute, unless you know what kind of horse-thinking is behind it. It means he thinks that he can push you around and get what he wants. Left unchecked, it WILL lead to bigger problems. It is easy to be flattered and pleased when our horses want us to give them some attention. However, that is not an appropriate way for a horse to seek it.

Did you ride on gravel or blacktop? Did they used to wear shoes and maybe now they aren’t?

[PeytonM]

I understand what you mean, he rubs on me out side of harness that is the only time.

The horse im still having issues with (Prince) was shod in the rear, we had him on the road so im think that’s why he’s bothered. I have a farrier coming out sat to check him out but he doesn’t have shoes big enough for him…

[PeytonM]

well the farrier was out today, said he didnt have hoof issues he had to have a pulled muscle, I haven’t worked him since the walk home and hes slowly getting better. I’ll keep you up dated thanks for the replys

[Lanny Collins]

Horses carry about 60% of their weight on the front feet and 40% on their back feet. Also, the souls on the back feet are more contoured and the front feet have souls that are more flat. On my QH team I only protect their front feet. I’ll put easy care boots on their front feet and they make it fine without anything on their hind feet. If on rock working every day I might need to boot their hind feet but no more than they are hitched this has worked well for me. Only time I knew people would shoe back feet and leave front feet unshod, they told me, was to get them to stop/slide on their hind feet. If their front feet were a little tender they would use their hind feet more than their front when stopping.

[Scott G]

Were you riding on the road? Two things, 1) A 4 hour ride where you are moving along, especially up & down hills is a
workout. A horse that isn’t muscled up is going to be feeling pretty
worn down. 2) Trotting on a hard packed road for an extended period of time with an unshod horse is a prime setup for road founder. The observation of them being listless and excessively lying down could easily be a result of both 1 & 2.

[PeytonM]

Yeah so i’ve found that it was a really hard work out, feel kinda bad to be honest… he’s doing alot better now I’d say in a few more days he will be him self again

[karl t pfister]

Hay Scott what are your experiences with road founder ? Is it a true type of founder ,with separation of the lamina and other similar symptoms ? Thanks

[Scott G]

Karl,

Laminitis, as a general definition across the board, would be inflamation and associated pain with possible damage to the connective tissue within and surrounding the laminae of the coffin bone (P3). Pretty broad definition… but that is where the term “founder” gets thrown into describing the several possible etiologies and severity of laminitis.

“True founder”, is caused when there is change in the vasculature and/or available blood supply to the laminae. Blood supplying the laminae becomes stagnant due to localized circulatory dysfunction, usually as a result of endotoxemia and/or sepsis-induced endotoxemia. Endotoxemia can result from the classic feed issues as well as other metabolic conditions/issues. Systemic sepsis is usually the result of severe infection and is basically endotoxemia in its own right.

Endotoxemia will often cause a shunting of fresh blood before it makes it to the area of P3. This causes the present blood to stagnate, as mentioned above, which in turn can lead to micro-clots forming which furthers inhibits circulation. Inhibited circulation in the area then leads to further toxin accumulation which exacerbates the current situation. This scenario then causes the connective tissue of the laminae to break down which may then allow P3 to rotate. The classic founder which everyone fears.

Road founder, on the other hand, is caused strictly by concussive force. Barefoot horses trotting out on hard packed/surfaced roads are classic for this; especially if the horse is normally on soft ground and hasn’t been worked much on a hard surface at an extended gait or for a prolonged period of time. This scenario can easily cause inflammation and associated pain of the laminae. Rotation of P3 really doesn’t come into play with road founder.

All types of founder, at least initially, will present basically the same. Acute severe lameness/very hesitant to weight bear, laying down excessively , and possibly the classic toe pointing.

Basic beginning treatment for all founder is rest, preferably in a sand stall or some other soft base. Shavings don’t count. NSAIDs, typically bute, and possibly an analgesic such as banamine are the drugs to start with. Ace, with its associated beneficial vasodilatory effects, is often used. Always check with your vet though…if your horse is in septic shock you could quite possibly kill him with further vasodilation from a dose of ace. The truth is you should hold off on meds in general if you’re not comfortable or sure of yourself. Bute and banamine’s analgesic effects could mask other signs that could lead to a more definitive diagnosis if there is one.

Recovery is usually swift with road founder and seldom any lasting tissue damage. “True founder” involving severe rotation of P3, not so much…

In light of the above explanation, and it’s validity, I need to be more forthcoming with my past life experiences. I have always been a wood rat, and immersed in the backcountry and forests as a vocation. That being said…

When I was very young and looking for a change from a life of horse packing in the backcountry, I went back to school to become a Vet Tech. I attended Bel-Rea and did my internship at Alameda East. Think “Animal ER” on Discovery Channel. Bob Taylor, Nolan Rucker, and Kevin Fitzgerald were my mentors and who I worked with. After graduation and completing my internship, I went back east to work at Purdue Vet School for a couple of years, then returned to work at CSU VTH for 10 years in critical care/anesthesia. “Large and small I’ve gassed them all” :rolleyes: Literally, within a couple of years after graduation, I realized I needed to be back in the woods living the life I was meant to live. I worked weekends & night shifts while I went back to forestry school and ran a logging operation during the weekdays. Those years were pretty hard on the body & mind, but well worth it…

So Jen, this offers some explanation as to why I was going off on a mini-rant that morning in Athol about how in vet med we dose per #/kilo versus “one size fits all” for human medicine. I remember the “look” you gave me when I said “we” and then mentioned how weight/mass appropriate dosing was used in human anesthesia. The same for MOFGA when you and I struck up the conversation about superficial vs deep digital flexor tendons. Carl, this also explains why I am, in your words, “a walking pharmacy”. :rolleyes:

The fact is that I’ve been making serious money from forestry & logging for most of my adult life, well over 20 professionally. It is how the Vet Med tangent fits into all of that which can lead to confusion for folks. In essence, I was seriously double dipping for about 9-10 years.

In forums such as DAP and at events such as MOFGA LIF & Athol, my thoughts are that bringing that aspect of my past to light detracts from the focus of horse logging & forestry in general. Bring up my formal “Animal ER” life as an aside, and the primary discussion more than likely gets derailed. I didn’t want that to happen at the past events nor this forum for that very reason. Better to keep the focus on jumpin’ stumps! 🙂 Exception being now, …so that folks don’t think I’m pulling facts re: founder out of very dark places. Unfortunately, I’ve spent many a late night with severely foundering horses. :rolleyes:

[karl t pfister]

Scott ,Thanks for your explanation , and the bio was a plus too. I guess sometimes the circles of our lives are more concentric
than we realize and sometimes the circles do not intersect at all. thanks again

[Author]

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