Thinking seriously about starting with oxen…

[goodcompanion]

@bivol 21250 wrote:

ducks puddling? will have to check in on that… i don’t know about that, i don’t see how a few pounds worth of duck could puddle a field (mix the soil by it’s weight) as a cow or ox…
IF puddling is what i think it is, mixing moist mud and soil in the paddy.

Maybe there could be a service for ducks to puddle paddies by contract. Here’s how it would work. They show up, work in your paddy for a few days, then they go away. Afterwards, the send you the bill.

The bill. Get it?

[Tim Harrigan]

Countymouse;21235 wrote:

Erik,
This is a fascinating project and I’m excited to hear how it goes. Are you thinking about starting calves or getting an older pair? I see ads from time to time (on this site and others) for more mature teams with some training being sold at very reasonable prices. I have noticed that most of the oxen people on this site start their own. I don’t know much about oxen, really, but it seems like such a long time to wait until they get big… I have never had the patience to wait for a horse to mature, at least. Perhaps there is a practical reason that so many oxen people start with calves?

Erik,
The working draft of a 1600 lb horse and a 2000 lb ox are more related to training and conditioning than just ox versus horse. Cattle carry a lot of extra weight in rumen fluid so is probably not fair to compare oxen and horses lb for lb.

This comment about starting a team versus buying an older team is interesting. One aspect of this is that some folks seem to think that if they do not start the team they have not really trained it. As if bonding will only occur with calves. I do not agree with that. There are many reasons to consider a started team. Perhaps the most important is not everyone has the time to devote to a team of calves at that important age. Some of the best potential teams will need a consistent hand and considerable time in the first few months. They could be lost to teamsters that do not have the time to put in.

A good team will test a new teamster within the first few minutes, if only in subtle ways. If the teamster demonstrates worthiness to lead, the team will bond. I do not think it matters if they are one month old or a started team 8 months old. A good, started team (by good I mean spirited) is very capable of making a green teamster look silly if the leadership and experience are lacking. Even a well-trained, 8-month old team has a lot more to learn. It is not an issue of who started them, the issue is who is leading them.

This made me think of an excellent article that was written by Katy Huppe and published as “The Making of a Museum Team” in the Summer 2006 RH. She pointed out several reasons why museums in particular, but I think all teamsters, should consider 4-H trained teams. I will briefly summarize some of her key points here, check out the full article if you have access to it:

1. Oxen that will be in contact with the public need to be trustworthy and versatile with a good disposition. 4H steers typically get started when they are days old. The teamsters put in the time and reinforce good behavior and discourage bad habits.

2. The young teamsters soon find out if the team is suited for public display. If not, the animal is replaced. This avoids potential problems for less attentive teamsters.

3. The team is exposed to a variety of other teams and teamsters. Teamsters commonly switch teams to create more adaptable animals that respond to the teamster regardless of inconsistencies in voice, body language or technique.

4. 4-H teams are exposed to many fairs and exhibitions. This helps develop a calm and reliable team. They are also exposed to horses, chickens etc., things that could make a skittish team a liability in fair or parade settings.

5. Most 4-H teams engage in a wide range of tasks such as tillage, logging, sap hauling etc. They learn to adjust to the demands of the job.

I think Katy was perceptive in her assessment. One other thing that is important is we support the continuity of the ox and draft animal community by purchasing started teams and rewarding young teamsters for their investment in training and involvement. If this keeps their interest alive it gives ox power legs for the future.

So Erik, if you decide to go in this direction I think you should consider a trained pair. If you check out the RH site you will see some nice teams at good prices that are ready to go. Good luck with it.

[bivol]

@goodcompanion 21252 wrote:

Maybe there could be a service for ducks to puddle paddies by contract. Here’s how it would work. They show up, work in your paddy for a few days, then they go away. Afterwards, the send you the bill.

The bill. Get it?

bills! lots of em!:D
“sorry, sir, the bills are all there’s left… they were rowdy, we had to take care of em… but keep em coming!”

now seriously… i don’t think renting will work, because ducks are way to easy to get and even to adjust, and you still have to feed them till next year…
if you’d still do that, i think indian runners are probably the best, they lay a ton of eggs, so one gets extra benefits from eaten vermin. if you rent a movable coop, all the better!

but!
maybe selling conditioned ducklings to rice producers every year could work? ones that are already with rice so they won’t eat it?

i say, could work!
esp. if you lead by your example and show how practical it can be!

[goodcompanion]

@bivol 21269 wrote:

bills! lots of em!:D
“sorry, sir, the bills are all there’s left… they were rowdy, we had to take care of em… but keep em coming!”

now seriously… i don’t think renting will work, because ducks are way to easy to get and even to adjust, and you still have to feed them till next year…
if you’d still do that, i think indian runners are probably the best, they lay a ton of eggs, so one gets extra benefits from eaten vermin. if you rent a movable coop, all the better!

but!
maybe selling conditioned ducklings to rice producers every year could work? ones that are already with rice so they won’t eat it?

i say, could work!
esp. if you lead by your example and show how practical it can be!

Here is a link to an article discussing the method. Sorry, the correct name is Takao Furuno:

http://www.leopold.iastate.edu/pubs/nwl/2002/2002-1-leoletter/furuno.htm

Ducks actually don’t eat rice plants because the leaves are high in silica and abrasive on their mouths. However geese will eat rice leaves. And ducks will eat mature rice grains but by that time the ducks will have gone to the butcher.

Ducklings for the following year are raised either on rice grains or on little wafers that are made out of rice flour and then baked. These are called, in the trade, “quackers.”

[dlskidmore]

@Tim Harrigan 21261 wrote:

A good team will test a new teamster within the first few minutes, if only in subtle ways. If the teamster demonstrates worthiness to lead, the team will bond. I do not think it matters if they are one month old or a started team 8 months old. A good, started team if very capable of making a green teamster look silly if the leadership and experience are lacking. Even a well-trained, 8-month old team has a lot more to learn. It is not an issue of who started them, the issue of who is leading them.

This is why I want to start with calves. Not for the sake of the calves’ training, but mine. While the animal is still small you can overcome mistakes with physical domination, and you have all those growing months to retrain anything you trained incorrectly.

I actually intend to start with beef animals, and train myself for a couple years before I pick a pair to not have for dinner and raise on as working cattle. It may seem wasteful to train an animal that I don’t intend to keep, but it’s like any trade, you have to get a proper education before you can do it right. I’m in no hurry, I am only planning to cultivate a small area at first, with only a rototiller for powered tools.

If I felt I was an experienced teamster, an experienced team would be preferable, ready to work with only a little big of bonding and acclimation to my equipment/environment to work out.

[bivol]

thanks Erik! 😉 will check it out!

[Nat(wasIxy)]

I grew up pony-mad and had lessons for years, going on to work in 4 very different stables. That all changed as soon as I got a taste of oxen! I find working with oxen much better, they are far less ‘reactive to the environment’ as somebody said earlier. I like the calm atmosphere around them, and knowing you can pass plastic flapping in a breeze, or have a gate bang their side without worrying at all. Traffic can pass within inches of my oxen’s rumps and they won’t budge. And yet, despite what I was told I haven’t sacrificed any speed with my simmi! If anything he’s too fast…

Wet conditions? pah! nothing to an ox; mine waded through mud up to his hocks on our very first ride, I thought with me on his back I’d have to dismount in it, but it’s like it wasn’t there.

Training calves Vs. buying in? Got no choice in the UK! But, I’m glad, I feel I have a special bond with the animals I have reared and trained and really don’t know how I would have got on with fully trained and wise oxen…I’m thinking not good; they would have out-foxed me in no time!

[mstacy]

Eric,

I am very interested to hear more about your rice experiments. Have you given any thought to putting a few pigs to work in the flooded paddy field with portable electric fencing? Access to dry ground and or an elevated shelter would probably be very important. I bet that three or four pigs could puddle a small paddy in no time flat. I’ve never heard of this being done … but who knows. I’m amazed at how quickly even one of my Tamworths can tear up the sod in a 30 x 30ft section of pasture to unearth all the glacial gifts. I’d be amazed if they chose to test the fence while standing knee deep in mud.

Years ago I spent three years in northeast Thailand. I was fortunate enough to work with small scale rice farmers. Sticky rice is very popular there. Most of the fields are plowed (extremely light plow) and puddled with a simple spike tooth harrow pulled by a single water buffalo or 10hp hand tractor with montrous paddle wheels. The vast majority of the crop is harvested by hand with grass hooks and bound into bundles with zip ties made from split bamboo strips. Roughly half of the crop is still threshed by hand.

Regards,

Matt

[dlskidmore]

@mstacy 21766 wrote:

Have you given any thought to putting a few pigs to work in the flooded paddy field with portable electric fencing?

Anyone serious about such a thing might look at mulefoot hogs. There is speculation that the non-cloven hoof is less likely to be affected by damp conditions.

[Andy Carson]

Getting back to the origional topic of this thread… I too have been thinking about getting into oxen. Most accurately, I have been weighing the pros and cons of getting another horse to make a team versus selling my horse (after a transition time) and getting a team of oxen. It’s kinda of “bird in the hand” vs “two in the bush” situation, but as keep having the need to more power (primarily for tillage), I get more attacted to having a team of oxen…

One of major attractive features of oxen is that in my situation I think I can feed a team of oxen about the same (maybe even less???) than what I spend to feed my horse. Here’s why I think this. Please correct me if I’m wrong about these thoughts, as I do not have alot of oxen experience.

1. I have more than enough pasture to feed two horses in the spring, summer, and fall. I think that if the horses can’t eat all the pasture, than a pair of oxen would have plenty in thier place. I also think that the oxen will utililize graze the pasture more uniformly and not leave cronically ungrazed patches like the horses tend to do.

2. I think that oxen would be easier to temporarily fence in the fields, allowing them to graze crop residue and cover crops. The ease of secure fencing opens up more potential for more intensive rotational grazing in smaller paddocks, and I could perhaps stockpile some grass for the winter.

3. I have less worry about turning cattle out to on marginal forage and scavanged crop residue. Stockpiled grass, old corn stalks, overwintered turnips, cereal cover crops, etc, are things I think oxen would appreciate (correct me if I’m wrong).

4. Oxen can eat cheaper, poorer quality hay, and don’t need grain at all (unless I work them harder than I think I will).

From a working perspective, I used to really appreciate the ability of my horse to trot and even canter from time to time, but this was largely for my own entertainment, and I am not sure this is really a useful working trait. I can also give up entertaining (fast) forecart rides for guests :). I walk all the time when I work my horse, so walking with oxen should be about the same. What I can’t give up, though, is having a fast walk. I spent some time around some really big oxen at Tunbridge last year, and thought that they would be nice to work with, BUT some of them walked at a speed that would drive me absolutely bat-sh*t crazy. I would need a faster walking team for sure. I think that some oxen walk fairly fast (I am speculating here), and I don’t need a really big team. Maybe the smaller team walk faster in general??? I am curious to hear what others think. Maybe I am overestimating the power and ulitity of the ruminant stomach. On the other hand, perhaps thier digestive system is SO efficient that mature oxen require alot of management just to make sure they don’t get too much food? Perhaps there are other factors to take into account?

[dlskidmore]

I’ve no practical experience myself, but am considering oxen as part of my future enterprise. I think you’re right about the eating, and if you can switch to smaller paddocks you should also reduce the hit-or-miss grazing pattern.

As for speed, I’m not sure mowing can be done well at slow speed? Back in ox days hay harvest was usually done by hand? Everything else you can do at ox speed, and since they have a little more power than the horse you might be able to use some wider implements to make up for the reduced travel speed with a reduced number of passes down the field.

Do you have neighbors with horses for those few things you have trouble getting done with an ox? I’m not firm on the animal-powered principle, I’d be willing to rent a neighbor’s tractor for haying…

[Baystatetom]

I got my first pair of oxen when I was 5 and never wanted a horse. Unfortunately for me my daughter wanted nothing but a horse, so I finally broke down and got her one. I was right all along I really do like cows better for to many reasons to list.
However the one good advantage I can see to having a team of horses would be the ability to use them for more public entertainment like hay rides/sleigh rides. Seems like a good way to make money off a team when farming or logging is slow.
I wouldn’t be afraid to buy a well broke team except if you start with calves you will learn together, if you start with a grown team you have to catch up quick. I gave away a pair rather then see them go to slaughter and was surprised how much there was to teach the new driver. You have to learn how to act with them not just that haw is left and gee is right. If you get a grown team be sure you also get driving lessons, and not just one either.

[dlskidmore]

@Baystatetom 29298 wrote:

I wouldn’t be afraid to buy a well broke team except if you start with calves you will learn together, if you start with a grown team you have to catch up quick.

I plan to raise a couple beefers with unecessary amounts of training before I decide I know enough about handling them to raise a couple handy steers. Even if they go to slaughter, the training won’t be a total waste when they need medical work or when loading them on the trailer on their last day.

[Baystatetom]

Its never a waist of time to learn something new. Even if you beef them right off you will have gained some experience.
~Tom
Andy I think your statements are pretty much correct. I also think they slow down as they get older. My team is pretty fast, and I like it that way 90% of time, making sharp corners around trees and stumps when pulling logs is the 10% I wish they would slow up a bit. The more you work with them the slower they get as well. If they stand around for a week without being in the yoke you can plan on a brisk walk.

[dominiquer60]

There is no shame in working beef animals or heifers, with enough training any cattle can work well for you. If you start with beef, just be prepared for dairy calves to be slightly different. My experience is that my shorthorns are slightly more flighty, but the beef taught me a lot and I feel that my shorthorrns are an improvement on what I did with my beef. With that said, my beef heifer could probably out pull either of my shorthorns, that was one motivated heifer.

Andy, If you get a pair of calves just remember that they still need ample nutrition to grow well and don’t thrive on old first cut until they are older.

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