To All Who Try To Sell Others On The Idea Of Sustainable Farming, Forestry.

[Bumpus]

.
I am going to try to share these thoughts as polite and kindly as possible because I do care.

If I did not care I would not spend the time and effort to type this letter.

To All Who Try To Sell Others On The Idea Of Sustainable Farming, Forestry.

Remember to keep it simple for the common person to understand, who don’t know what you are trying to get across to begin with. :confused:
Also speak in simpler words to understand because most people with common educations do not understand word of higher learning in your field.

Ever been to a Doctor, Lawyer, Scientist or Chemist or a Lecturer On Sustainable Farming, Forestry who speaks in Great Swelling Collage Words, that They understand, but simply mean very little to us common people.

You know what you are talking about but many people don’t.

Tell us how your way is going to benefit us more, and be more profitable to us, instead of doing our Timber Cutting and Farming the way others have done it for many years, and Tell us by using simple everyday words and language, that we can understand more clearly.

We may want to buy your way of doing things if we understand what you are really selling.

For a more simple and more understanding way of sharing is our plea ! ! !
.

[Bumpus]

.
Hello Everyone:

So far there have only been 7 people to cast a vote and share there view
on this subject out of 106 people who did view this thread.

Your vote is made in secret and no one knows who you are.
But your vote will help in the long run for everyone to benefit in a more clear understanding.

So if you have not voted, reconsider not only for the benefit of others
but it will also help you and us all to be more educated in the future.

Also it will be helpful for the many guests who visit here daily.

From one who cares about keeping it simple ! ! !
.

[Gabe Ayers]

From the perspective or viewpoint of someone that works in the educational field it is important to educate folks in what we see as being better. That will include expanding the vocabulary of many folks and hopefully expanding their view of what we see as beneficial or not. That is just the nature of education, learning things you didn’t know before. I personally think that is one of the most interesting and rewarding aspects about this lifestyle – one continues to learn…

On the contrary, keeping things simple and not deep is part of keeping things going just like they have been and the result of that are obvious to anyone really looking at the reality of farming or forestry. Sound bites and short cuts usually come up short. So it is hard to teach and make things real simple at the same time. Life is complex. If someone uses words you don’t understand or recognize just look them up in a dictionary. I find that when I go to that trouble I am more likely to remember what the word meant the next time I see it.

Public education is a very important part of what we do. Not that we want to imply or even think that people are dumb, people are not generally dumb. But teaching a new perspective or view of things may require introducing new terms or words as part of the process.

But in reality it is like we say all the time. We think we know the secret to being sustainable…. and the secret is that there is no secret, just hard work investing in the future with all our activities be it in the field or the forest.

Being sustainable is not the easy way, if it were – everyone would already be doing it…. I suspect nobody really knows what is truly sustainable, but many have good ideas and proven records and experience.

It’s like a line in a song we sing around here, “it makes sense that it is the hard way, because it is hard to be sensitive”- from Red Hoss Log, second verse, always used as the closing music on our DVD’s.

That’s my two cents worth that is free, but hopefully priceless…and not worthless.

I think it is important to think critically and analytically, always ask questions, there are on dumb questions, but often dumb answers…. so make anyone that writes/says something you don’t understand, to explain it further, in detail and if it doesn’t make sense to you, ask them to give references to their opinions and positions… and do the homework/research which is how we all may educate ourselves.

Don’t take anyone’s opinion for granted. Don’t worship so called hero’s because the real hero’s don’t want or need to be worshiped. Be yourself and enjoy your own uniqueness and perspective. Get information from as many sources as possible.

Sincerely,

[Carl Russell]

Bumpus;11825 wrote:

.
I am going to try to share these thoughts as polite and kindly as possible because I do care.

If I did not care I would not spend the time and effort to type this letter.

To All Who Try To Sell Others On The Idea Of Sustainable Farming, Forestry.

Remember to keep it simple for the common person to understand, who don’t know what you are trying to get across to begin with. :confused:
Also speak in simpler words to understand because most people with common educations do not understand word of higher learning in your field.

Ever been to a Doctor, Lawyer, Scientist or Chemist or a Lecturer On Sustainable Farming, Forestry who speaks in Great Swelling Collage Words, that They understand, but simply mean very little to us common people.

You know what you are talking about but many people don’t.

Tell us how your way is going to benefit us more, and be more profitable to us, instead of doing our Timber Cutting and Farming the way others have done it for many years, and Tell us by using simple everyday words and language, that we can understand more clearly.

We may want to buy your way of doing things if we understand what you are really selling.

For a more simple and more understanding way of sharing is our plea ! ! !
.

As I am not one who is trying to “sell” others on the idea of sustainable farming and forestry, I am not compelled to respond to the poll.

I will say however that I spend a lot of time discussing the issue with people who are interested in the ideas I have, and how I try to implement them. That is the main reason that those issues are highlighted on this site, people want to understand and share perspectives.

I happen to completely disagree with the premise that our discussions must be simplified for the “common” person to understand. As a homeschooling parent I strongly believe in presenting the concept in its most complete, accurate, and appropriate language. It is the attempt to simplify complex issues that creates the confusion.

I actually have no problem with someone who can’t wrap their mind around the discussion from the beginning. It is a great opportunity to continue, to understand the “language” that makes sense to that person, and to build effective communication with that individual.

As far as explaining why the way we do it is better. That’s a load. My way is better for me, because it makes sense to me. I don’t do it because I want it to make sense, I actually don’t care whether it makes sense to anybody else. My only interest is in helping others, who are interested, to understand my perspective. There may be some out there who are trying to sell it, but most of the people I know are only trying to respond to people with interest.

Effective sharing has more to do with commitment to communication than it has to do with simplifying the message.

Thanks Bumpus for taking the time to press this issue. I hope you find some useful information.

Carl

[Scott G]

As most have probably gathered by now, my interests as they relate to this forum are pretty much limited to draft animals, specifically horses, and sustainable forestry/utilization.

With that in mind, when I fully engage in a post, it is usually with folks that practice forestry and are familiar with the terminology. To explain something like “utilizing an uneven-aged silvicultural prescription” would take at least a couple of long paragraphs to do it right. That could create a post that is extremely long every time one was written. I do not have the energy or desire to do that. Any trade or profession has its specific terms to describe day-to-day activities. You understand draft powered terminology, correct? Imagine responding on every post every term used. Could get pretty long, eh?

If you have a specific question for a specific term, its simple, ask. No one is going to lambast you for asking, to the contrary, it should be encouraged within reason. That my friend, is the process of education.

Perhaps starting individual threads for terminology in the category Carl started a while back would be good. That is if folks have time to contribute to it.

Sit back, listen & learn. You will be surprised what you pick up after reading the posts after a period of time.

I voted on the poll. Absolutely no secret as to how I voted…

[Bumpus]

.
Trust me I am not against … Sustainable Farming, and Forestry.

I guess what I have said might not be simple enough either, and I am not talking about anyone being dumb.

When I say sell which is a figure of speech I am not talking about money at all. Just talking about how a new idea you are going to use to convince me and others through simply talk so I can realise how I can make more money for my timber in the future instead of now and do you have proof that I and others can understand in proven results through figures and facts that we can look at in writing.

If I have a Two hundred acre Farm with one hundred acres of Good High Quality Hard Wood Timber and allow you to cut my timber your way using Sustainable Farming, Forestry. How long would it take to show the difference
and why.

Example:

How much more money increase will I benefit from it down the road, and how many years will it take to show a profit increase over what I would receive by cutting it today.

Also:

I just saw where there were 30 guess looking at this website, and I am wondering how many have the same ideas.

The vote so far itself has a lot to say to the idea of being more simply explained because out of 8 votes only one person voted and cast a vote for yes it is simple enough

That does say something to the facts and need.

If a woman is in a delivery room and ready to deliver a baby and the head nurse tells the husband that they are going to have to give his wife a saddle-block, the husband may know nothing about what she is saying.

So the Husband looks at the doctor and says
why would you do that … she is not a horse.
.

[Gabe Ayers]

Bumpus and any net surfing Lurkers, (hopefully forest landowners or perspective practitioners of restorative forestry)

Here is an attempt to answer some of your questions. Since we have met in the past and you are familiar with the work we do from visiting our farm and forests several years ago, here is how we describe it as beneficial to practice restorative forestry.

The best analogy or comparison is in the paper we have on the HHFF site under the title of: Forestland – A Natural Capital System.

http://healingharvestforestfoundation.org/docs/ForestlandCapitalSystem.doc

This is simply a common sense comparison of a forest with a stock portfolio, with each individual tree being a stock that one is invested in, owns and depends on for future generation of profit or wealth.

Now – first it is understood that privately owned forestland is the property of that owner and they have the inherent right to do with it as they see fit, within common values that forestland holds for the common good or water quality for instance and the use of “best management practices” often required by many states to keep loggers from lowering water quality by their practices.

That being said means that we understand that grandma may be in the hospital and needs allot of money fast, so a heavy harvest of the family woodlot may be the only source of that larger income available to the family.
We understand that reality beyond our advice to be restorative or leaving the best trees for the future. This is why we have a clause in our management agreement that requires that we are given the “first right of refusal” on subsequent or the next harvest. We feel that if a high grade or a clear cut is (determined by the landowner) to be applied on a site we have left the best trees to grow faster, then we should get the benefit of the value “cashed in” from this next harvest. As long as we would give as much for it as a conventional logger then we will do the work and despite it not being our choice of the best management, we want to keep it open to gain from our work and to leave the forest better from our techniques when/if liquidating the stand. In other words if you are going to high grade or clear cut the animals still do a superior job compared to machinery considering the residual condition of the site, including unmarketable trees and soil.

What it comes down to is that the biggest healthy trees are making more money than any other trees and those are the ones to protect and enhance through culture treatment and techniques. So if is a matter of need of income that would determine if anyone takes the long term view and that of leaving a legacy of a continual income producing piece of land or one that will have little value as a forest in the near future. Once a piece has been high graded or clear cut it is indeed in line to be developed for lots and houses as the next way to getting money out of the land. That is the common way most land is conventionally managed. There are all sorts of numbers on how much acreage we lose to development yearly…lots…indeed.

The “sustainable” idea is that folks can get by on a steady smaller stream of income while leaving the forest to increase in value with time. Our approach does allow some wood to be cut every so often on a shorter harvest rotation than high grading or clear cutting or liquidation of the natural capital system that gains value in it’s biological presence. In other words get some money every ten years or all the money once in a lifetime.

This is a very complex subject and maybe this post will grow from others contributions. So I am going to let it be at this for now and see if you have any further questions after reading the link information.

I will say that there are negative results to modern high grading and clear cutting that are not a part of the results from these practices in the past.
In particularly the presence of alien invasive botanicals that are so aggressive that the forest may never regenerate itself again if all the biggest trees are taken at once or the entire forest is removed. This is not information that is part of conventional forestry methods that are being “sold” by public foresters or industrial foresters. It is simply the truth as we experience it in our area.

It is also something to think about as an ethic or principle of doing “good work”. “Good” meaning that the natural resource is not lowered in value from any treatment. That ethic of stewardship or a determination to leave a place better than we found it is not commonly held in our modern world. That is a sorely missing part of modern life. It is the source of human dignity for many that do this work of restorative forestry and also a clear economic strategy
for sound culture that leaves an improving condition for a living system in the future.

Yep, you are right, if you only cut the veneer candidates and big trees, I would call you a high grader.

High grading is the primary reason that conventional foresters prescribe even aged management or clear cutting to cut it all down and let it start over to give fair advantage to shade intolerant species. I reject this notion based on many years experience or regenerating shade intolerant species through single tree selection methods.

Clear cutting speaks for itself. I hear it all the time, “we will just cut those big ones and let the little ones have room to grow”. The fallacy in that reasoning is that the big ones and little ones are often the same ages, so the little ones are little for a reason and don’t always respond to release and in the meantime the heavy disturbance provides an opportunity for disturbance dependent invasive botanicals to get started or shade tolerant species to become dominant in the future forest.

So, that is part of what we think about this and we will see what anyone else says.

Sincerely,

[Carl Russell]

Bumpus;11844 wrote:

……When I say sell which is a figure of speech I am not talking about money at all. Just talking about how a new idea you are going to use to convince me and others through simply talk so I can realise how I can make more money for my timber in the future instead of now and do you have proof that I and others can understand in proven results through figures and facts that we can look at in writing……

Bumpus, I’m still unclear about the premise of your original post.

Is it about this Site? This site is not presented as an authoritative resource to answer questions. These topic areas are included here precisely to get people to weigh in with their own perspectives to help us all understand a little better where we all are coming from.

I personally don’t measure the value of my work by whether others understand why I do it.

When we put the onus on others to somehow understand our “language” before they communicate with us, we restrict the conversation before it gets started. I know that some people try to diminish the value of other’s contributions by equating their own confusion with the other person’s inability to communicate in the chosen “language”, but this is the ineffective type of communication that leads to divisions in community.

My sense is that this poll is designed to create a sense in a few of us that we need to be defensive about our choices. I’m not sure that I endorse that objective, and I won’t participate, but I will let it progress, as long as it doesn’t instigate divisive discussions.

Carl

[J-L]

I understand where Bumpus is coming from, being a simple rancher (some would say very simple!) I read some of Jason and Carl’s posts and scratch my head and reread parts. Generally I can muddle through it though.
What I have done in the past when we were onto something I couldn’t dig out of my thesaurus, was send a message to whoever made the posts to get some clarifications. Everyone has been very patient with me there.
Being a small rancher in Wyoming, I’m far removed from most of you folks and your hardwoods. So it’s all new to me anyway. Also very little actual farming here. Pretty much grow grass and run it through a cow.
In the long run, I have to say I really do enjoy reading these guys even when they get a little ‘wordy’. I like to exercise my brain a little and maybe expand my vocabulary.
Another aspect that has surprised me was the horsemen (and mulemen) that we have on this board. Watching and listening to some of these guys has been an eyeopener for this cowboy. There’s some good ‘cowboys’ all over the place. By cowboys I mean people who use and ‘savvy’ horses (or mules).

[LStone]

Good Morning,

I come form a position on this subject with relatively no knowledge or experience of the concept of Sustainable Forestry Management techniques. My appreciation for the logging industry has grown over the years, but only in the last ten years or so have I gained what knowledge I have accumulated about sustainable forestry. I am absolutely self taught through reading and talking with knowledgeable people in the industry. With the advent of the Web and its increasing popularity, it has become a huge teaching aid for me as well. In my view there are many benefits to self education. You can proceed at your own pace and if you have questions you can stop your progress to search on specific terms and concepts to gain a better understanding before you proceed. Another advantage is the fact that I don’t participate in the industry for a living, it is more of a hobby or a labor of respect if you will. This gives me the advantage of much less pressure to feed my family off of this skill. As a woodlot owner I gain advantages of having a big lab to practice with. No time line or expectation equals all the time in the world to me to view my progress and results. That said I do exclusively heat our home with my efforts while working towards a more sustainable forest. The big trade off on self education is that I miss out on the real time feedback and confirmation of what I am developing. I also do not have the tutorship and mentors available to me that I would have if I would spend a little time in a more formal learning situation. But I do appreciate this site and what it is contributing to both my knowledge in sustainability and horsmanship.

I think that I stumbled on the “sustainability” concept quite by accident in pursuit of my infatuation with draft animals, horses in my case. In my experience I found that there are a lot of common sense principles involved in the practice but the key to complete understanding of the subject matter is in the definition of the term “sustainability”. You have to understand the definition of the word. Another aspect to whether or not you may understand what it is would be your interest and drive to gain the knowledge of it at all. If you are not so inclined you will not learn. Fortunately for my own purposes I have been quite motivated to learn what I can about it. It also seems to me that there are plenty of willing individuals who are more than happy to set you out on the right direction if you have a mind to learn about it. I think over the years that sustainability has become more mainstream and has also become more associated with animal traction practitioners but even that phenomenon makes economical common sense when figuring in the volumes and money required to operate profitably animals vs. machines.

Sorry for rambling but I voted in the poll and these are some thoughts and reasoning behind my vote. Thanks to all for your interest.

Larry

[Bumpus]

@Carl Russell 11877 wrote:

Bumpus, I’m still unclear about the premise of your original post. Carl

My questions and requests have nothing to do with this site itself
which I do like very much.

Keep Up The Good Sharing which is much needed.

But your question you have made ( in the quote )
is somewhat how I and others feel also.

You may not understand me even thought I am trying to make it
very simple, using common everyday language.

Now think how much we do not understand, ( who read words we don’t
always understand, ) which also have many different meanings
that can be applied to them.

I will try to post questions along this line in the other forum.

Keep watching.
.

[Bumpus]

@Biological Woodsman 11874 wrote:

Now – first it is understood that privately owned forestland is the property of that owner and they have the inherent right to do with it as they see fit, within common values that forestland holds for the common good or water quality for instance and the use of “best management practices” often required by many states to keep loggers from lowering water quality by their practices.

That being said means that we understand that grandma may be in the hospital and needs allot of money fast, so a heavy harvest of the family woodlot may be the only source of that larger income available to the family.
We understand that reality beyond our advice to be restorative or leaving the best trees for the future. This is why we have a clause in our management agreement that requires that we are given the “first right of refusal” on subsequent or the next harvest. We feel that if a high grade or a clear cut is (determined by the landowner) to be applied on a site we have left the best trees to grow faster, then we should get the benefit of the value “cashed in” from this next harvest. As long as we would give as much for it as a conventional logger then we will do the work and despite it not being our choice of the best management, we want to keep it open to gain from our work and to leave the forest better from our techniques when/if liquidating the stand. In other words if you are going to high grade or clear cut the animals still do a superior job compared to machinery considering the residual condition of the site, including unmarketable trees and soil.

Sincerely,

I understand the need you have for your contract and why.

1. My question is if I or my children who inherit my land and timber after I die decide to clear cut for a future project, ( or what ever reason ) and need the job done quickly and you or your team of loggers are not able to cut and clear the land of it’s timber as fast and conventual loggers ( under a certain time frame ) so the land can be put to a different use. Would we have to Wait until you have time to work us in being as you have first refusal.

2. If I or my children decide to use another means of cutting and a different logging crew, this would not be permissible according to you contract.
Am I correct ?

3. They may not like this way of handling there land and timber.
So what would they do then ?

4. If for some reason you could not perform a cut when it is asked for does that break the contract for future use or just for that one cutting ?

5. A contract which works today may not fit all of the situations that come up later on in the future. So what happens if I decide to sell the land and ( all that is there with it ) does the contract hold the new owners to the same agreement even if they do not agree, or want to have the same requirements for future use to there land ?

6. If I have 200 acres and decide to sell ( some of the property ) what happens to the agreement ( contract ) with the timber that goes with that land ?

Or is the land tied up forever ?

Just some thoughts that come to my mind because
sometime contracts can be confusing and not clear.

.

[Bumpus]

@Joel 12021 wrote:

Ever try to drive a nail in an oak 2×4?

Only when it is green or get out the drill.

Or maybe a power nailing gun.
.

[Nat(wasIxy)]

Although I believe it’s pointless trying to ‘sell’ the idea, people either get it or they don’t, the simplest way I can put it is:

Oil WILL run out. It takes an incomprehensibly long time for oil to form, and we obviously use it way quicker than that so its not a question of if, but when. Maybe it’ll be ten years, maybe a hundred, the only certainty is that one day, it won’t be there anymore and prior to that, you can bet it’ll get so expensive ordinary people won’t be able to afford it – we’ll be on our own.

We’ll have no fuel for lorries, machinery, combines etc etc etc – how will we harvest and transport things? We won’t have petrochemicals – packaging, fertiliser, pesticides etc will no longer be there.

The good news is that – we don’t need oil! We survived for thousands of years without it. BUT, the bad news is that the methods for doing things without oil are not quick fixes, they need time to build up and plenty of perhaps forgotten knowledge we need to relearn. Best to start right now then! 😀

[Bumpus]

@Ixy 12024 wrote:

Although I believe it’s pointless trying to ‘sell’ the idea, people either get it or they don’t, the simplest way I can put it is:

Oil WILL run out. It takes an incomprehensibly long time for oil to form, and we obviously use it way quicker than that so its not a question of if, but when. Maybe it’ll be ten years, maybe a hundred, the only certainty is that one day, it won’t be there anymore and prior to that, you can bet it’ll get so expensive ordinary people won’t be able to afford it – we’ll be on our own.

We’ll have no fuel for lorries, machinery, combines etc etc etc – how will we harvest and transport things? We won’t have petrochemicals – packaging, fertiliser, pesticides etc will no longer be there.

The good news is that – we don’t need oil! We survived for thousands of years without it. BUT, the bad news is that the methods for doing things without oil are not quick fixes, they need time to build up and plenty of perhaps forgotten knowledge we need to relearn. Best to start right now then! 😀

Ixy … I believe you may have posted on the wrong thread .

This thread is not about oil … it is about Sustainable Farming, Forestry.
.

[Author]

Posts