Tragedy!!!Includes discussion of dramatic experiences, and blinders vs. open bridles

[Plowboy]

To me starting a pair without blinders is no different than changing a hame strap, adjusting a back strap, or making the hames fit the collar. It’s all a hardware change so to speak. The old timers I grew up with always told me you need a bag of tricks if your going to train horses. If I had a horse that I thought I c ould train to work faster or retrain quicker by using a non invasive method I would use it. I am bull headed and if a horse wants to do something on it’s own I make them do the opposite. On the other hand if I can save time training just by changing some bit of tack then I’m all for it. To not change something for the good is almost like making a horse wear an ill fitting harness because that’s the way it came out of the box. We all have to make adjustments to our equipment and animals over time. Not every horse will work in a straight bar bit without putting discomfort on the driver so we change bits because it is no fun having your arms pulled off. Not every horse is a placid beast but even the one’s that aren’t can be great horses with the right equipment so we reach into that bag of tricks so we can help the animal rise to it’s full potential. To magically believe you can whisper every horse into becoming Eeyore is insane because they all have different personalities and temperments.
I have an excellent working relationship with all my animals. They will give me 150% just for the asking but some have different bits, bridles, and one mare in the middle of a three horse hitch needs her crosslines taken all the way back because she can out walk and out plow any horse I’ve ever seen. When we got her she would make most people pee their pants but we got her righted around. She’s the most powerfull horse I’ve worked but with the right bit you can drive her with two fingers. My point is I couldn’t have got her working without changing her tack and being proactive and now she’s a great horse instead of a Canadian steak.

[Carl Russell]

Wes Gustafson;13490 wrote:

…..
Carl, when you said: “I’m done”, does that mean that the discussion is over?

Wes

No it just means I feel like I have been manipulating this thread and I was getting trapped in a situation where I was having trouble making my point without offending people. I had said all I needed to say. I don’t need to be right nor perfectly understood. I just meant I was done for now.

Wes your scenarios have happened to me, or at least things very similar. My training requires that my horses don’t need to understand what is coming, happening, or chasing them. At the same time, they are not clueless. The information they can gain from open bridles is negligible in helping them know how to respond to my expectations. They hear the loud noises, they see the strange things, the flying objects, and they may react out of fear. When I tell them to stand, or stop, or calm down, that is what they are expected to do. The bridles they are wearing have no bearing on how well they know to respond to me. That is the training.

Brush-hogging this fall with my DR tow-behind mower, a six inch piece of wood shot up and bounced off my mare’s rear. She never saw it coming because of the blinders. She jumped, and high-stepped for about 20 feet. When I told her to take it easy, she calmed right down into working walk.

I don’t want my horse trying to figure out all the things that might be going to happen (they can if they want to, but they will find it exhausting as it will distract them from the work at hand), I just want my horses to respond to me when I ask them to. This is no different with or without blinders. In my own little world, I do not worry about how a horse reacts to a stimulus, I worry about how they respond to my command when I give them guidance about how I expect them to react. This way I never have to worry (neither do they) about the infinite possibilities that might occur, and only concentrate on communication, so that when the unexpected happens, my calm “easy” can be heard and focused on through all the adrenalin, over all the barking, or loud motors, or whatever.

This is why my horses will be safe regardless of the tack they are wearing, or not wearing. This is why I made the comment that led to this discussion.

I never said that using open bridles was illogical, nor did I say that blinders help horses to deal better with frightening situations.

It seems that folks want to rally around open bridles. That is great. I truly think that is great. But just because that is great does not mean that it is the only or best way to prepare a working horse. There are many other factors that go into that making than the equipment they are wearing.

Carl

[Gabe Ayers]

Donn Hewes (Jason’s computer) Two work horses are standing near the road (in a fence) eating their morning grain. A truck drives by and a large piece of cardboard flies up in their faces. Untied and unharnessed, their heads fly up and they race away from this obvious danger. It is a few minutes before they are munching grain again, and they still look over the shoulder in the direction the cardboard came from. In a strange way they proved my point. If these horses had been in harness and working we all know that they could have calmly and safely dealt with a simple piece of card board, blinders or no. The difference between the two events is our presence and our preparation. Their ability to adapt and accept our leadership is a constant source of amazement to me.

Tack is important. If I am worthy of their trust I will always try to improve what I do with my hands on the lines, the leadership I provide, and my understanding of the tack they wear and how it affects them.

Mulemandonn hiding out in Southern Virginia.

[LaNette]

Yes, trust is a two-way street. I try not to put my equines in situations where they can get hurt in the first place. If I see a dog running out to my team my carriage whip goes into action. If I can shoo it away with just waving it then so be it but if its targeted on my animals I’ll whip the living crap right out of it.

When I was 8, my horse was attacked by a pit bull dog while I was riding her. That thing never went for the back legs or front legs for that matter. It kept leaping at my horse’s neck and throat. Running away was the only option (she made that decision as I was too terrified to think what to do). How could that have been any different had she been under harness with or without blinders?

As for the stick example, I’ve had sticks pop out from the under-brush to poke them in the belly many-many times. Working day in and out they don’t go into hysterics about things like that with or without blinders (since they can go both ways) its about spending a lot of quality sweat time together. Same was true when some Jerk threw a stone at my horse at the Homecoming Parade last year. Horse jumped then settled down while I talked to him then carried on like nothing had happened. Takes time under harness to get that way.

At the old lake site, mesquite bushes scratch them on the sides while they travel down the embankment. That’s the primary reason I use the bridle with the blinders – to help keep there eyes from being poked.

LaNette

[blue80]

I like this thread, as I’ve been asking “why” in regards to blinders for a long time. Growing up at the racetracks, (my dad is a veterinarian, not a bookie-I think:confused:) I always wondered if some competetive standardbreds would do better without blinders, due to competition coming up from the rear, helping motivate a trotter to dig down deep and push it to the finish, instead of being pushed with a whip. Growing up, my older brothers’ arabian riding horse sure never willingly allowed to be in second place and would always change pace when seeing me on my loping appy trying to steal home:mad:

Makes me continue to wonder about this specific hardwares purpose overall. Are they included in the harness package to correct a symptom, or should we be addressing other deeper causes to why the animal is reactionary? A holistic approach to blinders per se? Because we know bridleless horsemanship is an option also…

When questioning seasoned horse owners, one of the answers I have appreciated most in favor of blinders is this, paraphrased:
“Unlike riding, while driving a horse the methods of communication are limited to lines and voice. Blinders help keep the horse more focused on trusting the driver for communication at all times and being able to follow the communications immediately.”
So it becomes the teamsters’ responsibility to earn trust and send a constant message through the lines, “I got your back, no need to fear, follow my lead, I’ll take care of you, we are in this together….” and as needed by voice also…..The blinders may eliminate “white noise” and distractions so the horses can “hear” better, the first time…

Kevin

[near horse]

Here’s a thought from a rookie – if you’re training a new animal or are having issues with your present one and changing the blinder setup (on or off) might help – go for it. But, if you have a team that already works fine with (or without) blinders, why mess with it? If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Do what works.

[jen judkins]

@Carl Russell 13507 wrote:

I don’t want my horse trying to figure out all the things that might be going to happen (they can if they want to, but they will find it exhausting as it will distract them from the work at hand), I just want my horses to respond to me when I ask them to. This is no different with or without blinders. In my own little world, I do not worry about how a horse reacts to a stimulus, I worry about how they respond to my command when I give them guidance about how I expect them to react. This way I never have to worry (neither do they) about the infinite possibilities that might occur, and only concentrate on communication, so that when the unexpected happens, my calm “easy” can be heard and focused on through all the adrenalin, over all the barking, or loud motors, or whatever.

This is why my horses will be safe regardless of the tack they are wearing, or not wearing. This is why I made the comment that led to this discussion.

OK, I’ve had time to think about your comments and I’m pretty sure we are in agreement about tack. I guess I was feeling defensive because it felt like you were saying I was using a ‘tack adjustment’ to fix a training problem. When I think you know me well enough to know that is not true. I’m sorry I over reacted to your comments.

In truth, for the past 10 years I have spent a huge amount of time in the riding industry removing useless pieces of tack from my riding horses…tie downs, nosebands, martingales, etc., in order to do more with less. I managed somehow in my early 40’s to learn to ride all my riding horses bareback and bridleless…..a pointless endeavor for most folks, but for me it was about being a better leader and a better partner for my horses. Many riders add tack to have better control of their horse (or at least make them look better), in stead of acquiring the necessary leadership qualities or balance in the saddle, it takes to be successful and safe, riding a horse.

Its a different dynamic, driving, but my philosophy has not changed. I like a horse that can make decisions within the partnership and I don’t discourage it. I simply try to adjust my approach according to the feedback, much like you would consider changing a bit if your horse were constantly tossing its head in harness. It might address the problem, but it might not…still worth considering. I believe both horse and human have responsibilities within the working relationship. One of my responsibilitites is to make sure that my horse is better with every endeavor. If I see some behavior going south…I’m doing something wrong or providing the wrong feedback to the horse. If there is anything I can try, that will help me be better, I will do it. Its a decision tree for me….driven by feedback from the horse. I don’t think of taking blinders off as a distraction, but as a way of magnifying the feedback, so I can address it better. Truth is, Reno will do anything for me…he gives 150% all the time. But there is something troubling him and I’m determined to fix it for both of us, before it becomes a bigger problem.

[mitchmaine]

i think blinders kept more wood out of the horses eyes than in them. maybe it will be different for you guys. theres usually never one way

[jen judkins]

@Carl Russell 13507 wrote:

Brush-hogging this fall with my DR tow-behind mower, a six inch piece of wood shot up and bounced off my mare’s rear. She never saw it coming because of the blinders. She jumped, and high-stepped for about 20 feet. When I told her to take it easy, she calmed right down into working walk.

Oh my Gawd….I had a huge BFO (Blinding Flash of the Obvious) on my ride into work today!

What you are saying (correct me please if I am once again wrong), is that I (we) are concentrating on the wrong ‘event’. There is the initial event…dogs nipping at the heels, anxiety about noise, a stick in the butt…and then the second event when your horse responds positively to your leadership and reassurance (or not). If your horse(s) respond by calming down when you assert yourself as the leader, things are probably working just fine and having blinders or not has nothing to do with that. And further, since you cannot always anticipate what will worry your horse, it doesn’t make sense to put alot of energy into ‘fixing’ that piece of the puzzle. That concept is certainly worthy of my consideration in regard to Reno.

This explains why BigLug was so successful with Dottie after the dog incident. She, while worried about the dog, trusts his leadership.

My apologies, Carl and everyone else. I am a total visual learner. Its a miracle, I made it through med school with honors. While all my classmates we’re scribbling words into notebooks, I had a sketch book and drew pictures. I’ve always thought of it as a handicap of sorts and have always had trouble with written words, as they have to describe something I can see visually for me to understand them. Carl, your words just did not create the visual I needed to understand your point…until your description of the brushhogging incident. So thanks for sticking with me on this…

[Carl Russell]

Bingo!!!:D

Carl

[Gabe Ayers]

Whew!!! I thought next years teamsters breakfast was in the wind!

[Theloggerswife]

Since we all have decided to be agreeable….I concur with Kevin. I was a bit worried, because I think Wednesdays are Jen’s day to operate on her patients! But, it seems all is good now and her patients will not wake without an ear, nose or throat!:D:D:D

[jen judkins]

No worries, Missy…I’m not bearing any knives today:p

[Joshua Kingsley]

I was wondering while reading these posts about blinders and bridles ect. My old gelding who is aging gracefully I have worked with blinders and I was in a wood lot one day and some how forgot to toss the bridle into the truck from the house… I was winter and I like to keep the bridles warm so the bit is not frozen when I harness up. I had to get the logs out so I thought I would have to load back up and drive home… Then I got to thinking that I work him a bunch by voice only so would he work in just a halter? We made it through that day a couple years ago and I have worked him with blinders and in a halter only several times since then. Is it that he has the trust or the miles that makes it work or is it something else? Just poising the question of what would make it work. Joshua

[Scott G]

@Joshua Kingsley … I was winter and I like to keep the bridles warm so the bit is not frozen when I harness up. I had to get the logs out so I thought I would have to load back up and drive home… [/QUOTE wrote:

??? I just warm the bit in my hands. If it was really cold just throw the bridle on your defroster in the truck. Although, if it was really cold and you thought the home fire and a cup of coffee was a better option, then…;)

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