Training cow horns?

[Justine]

Hey there people

Through various conversations I’ve heard people mention “training” cow/ox horns. This training would cause the tips to curve inward toward one another and parallel to the head, almost creating a handle. Have I understood this correctly or am I way off? I’ve an 8 month old Jersey heifer on which I’d like to leave the horns. How would I go about doing this? Also, several people have suggested that owning a milk cow with horns is dangerous:eek:, any thoughts? All mine have been dehorned. Do you have any ideas on whether or not allowing horned and dehorned cattle to cohabitate presents an unfair advantage to the dehorned cattle?Thanks for the help.

[Carl Russell]

Unfair? Advantage yes. The unfairness is de-horning them to begin with. We keep our milk cows with horns. Of course they can be dangerous with their horns, but trust me you won’t get hit too many times before you figure out how to stay out of the way. As for the other cows? It’s been that way for a few hundred thousand years, they can handle it.

Training the horns can be a solution. We also use horn knobs. Most often seen on oxen, they serve the purpose of blunting the end of the horn. And they look good.

I used a horn weight to train a horn once. You may be able to find one through this forum. Also if you scrape the horn with a knife on the side that you want the horn to turn away from, you can induce a curve that will be less dangerous.

I’m sure Howie has some wisdom about horn shaping. Carl

[Howie]

There is no more need for the horns to be a danger than the feet. You just train the animal to have respect for you.
The horns can be trained to look just about any way you want with some patience. You can scrape them or just put a strain on them the way you want them to go.
Most people train them without even realizing it. Put her feed box on the side wall and that horn will turn in.
Before people decided to make cattle look ugly most of the people that showed cattle used hlorn trainers. I have a set that hang in the living room.
PS The horns on my steers are 40+ inches across.

[Patrick]

Probably a stupid question, but aren’t they tough on the barn and other equipment, with horns?
Way back when I had dairy goats, sure, horns were not a problem if one was sensible and learned how to handle them, and even though the animals learned to work things out, it sure was a lot easier on the facilities, and on the more timid members of the herd, if everyone was disbudded at a few days old.

[Carl Russell]

Well, no it’s not stupid, but I just think that what horned animals do with their horns is what they are supposed to do. If you watch them, horned animals relate to the world with their horns. It only seems natural to make allowances for that in the way we work around them. Sure it’s easier (for us) without them, same as a cow without a tail. We do many things to animals in the name of ease, and call it husbandry, but from my experience, having a few less animals and understanding their nature seem more reasonable solutions. Carl

[Howie]

So far as damage by use of their horns I have had more damage by the deer than from my cattle.

[Patrick]

Thanks for answering.

While I do agree with everything that you wrote, Carl, there are still some very reasonable situations in which disbudding is a valid practice. I still would not have dairy goats again, without doing it, and not only for my convenience. Small herds, limited space, smaller or timid individuals all come in to play. While I wouldn’t want an ox without horns, and maybe not even be worried about it on a single cow, how many commercial dairies have the luxury to have every single hired hand who has both the sense and the knowledge to stay out of the way? While I’m fairly certain that no one has ever been killed or seriously injured by a cow’s tail, I don’t think the same can be said for horns.

[svenstrs]

I’m a dairy farmer that has had horned cattle for many years. I have a fellow working with me now who has an interest in training horns. An old neighbor gave us an old trainer that is missing a part and appears to be missing a strap also. Anyone have experience with using this kind of trainer? Or better yet,know of some place that is still making them? I saw horn weights being used on beef cattle way back in the 70s while I was at Cal poly, but have not been able to locate them on the net.

I made a video of the trainer that we have:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fca1vEx5Yfs&feature=channel_page

also, any sources for horn knobs? Many thanks!

[Howie]

Your horn trainer is not missing a strap. It is missing the adjustment bolt that goes between the two eyes. If you look you will see the holes on the eyes are threaded. One has a left hand thread and the other has a right hand thread, there should be a rod between these with thrreads to match. The rod has a hole in the center to match up with the hole in the center of the face plate to lock the threaded rod to. The rod will adjust the tension to pull the horns in or push them out.
I have horn knobs for sale. Some I have in stock and I make some. The ones I make now is only one style, The brass has got so expensive!!

[Crabapple Farm]

On the horned / dehorned cattle cohabiting question:
We have a mixed (motley) small herd of cattle – a pair of horned shorthorn steers, a horned jersey milk cow, her mother, who is dehorned (we bought her from a dairy), half a dozen polled beef cows (all crossed up, but with angus and galloway making them all “naturally” polled), and some yearling steers, a couple of which have horns.
The oxen sometimes get a bit obnoxious throwing their weight and horns around, they seem to like making the younger boys jump. But the younger boys know to jump, so no injuries have resulted. The oxen tend to leave the ladies alone, but maybe it’s just that the cows don’t get themselves into stupid positions as often as the yearlings do. The jersey with horns weighs less than any of the other adults, and is near the bottom of the pecking order despite her horns.
I agree that horns are no more dangerous than feet – the cattle seem to be more aware of what they are doing with their horns, so as long as they have respect for you and your personal space…
BUT – they are all either loose outside or tied in stalls inside. Horned cattle loose in a tight space with corners is a dangerous combination, in my opinion. So in some barn setups, I could see horns being problematic. But it seems like the proper thing would be to call the barn setup problematic, not the horns. Horned cattle do need more barn space than polled cattle, which is an economic argument that can carry weight.
-Tevis

[Vicki]

I love horns on cattle. I’ve kept cattle for only 11 yrs. now, but have both horned and polled. My Dexters have some pretty wide and impressive sets. My tiny Dexter cow has beautiful horns and she milks great. My two hereford brood cows are polled, their sister has Milking Devon horns, but she is the lowest in their herd. If I let the Dexter steers with the hereford cows there are no problems, but the Dexter cow–only 36″ tall– will use her horns on the bellies of the herefords and so by intimidation become the top with them.
So as far as unfair advantage at mixing horned and polled, it depends on the temperament of the animals. If she wants to be dominant, she will use the horn advantage to become so. If she was not dominant and doesn’t care to assert herself, the horns won’t mean anything in the dynamics.
For me, I’ve never had an animal challenge or threaten me with its horns. If one ever does=hamburger.

[near horse]

Just an interesting comment regarding horned vs. dehorned animals. I think that some of the earlier comments may ring true – particularly, cattle have dealt with it for a long time.

It can be an unfair match in muskox that have almost a helmet style horn arrangement. Those w/ horns removed can really take a beating when banging head to head – they don’t seem to realize they don’t have horns anymore.

Problems may arise if you have mixed group of species that don’t recognize threatening postures from the other groups. The example I have is back when I was a graduate student in wildlife biology, the university had some mountain goats and some mule deer together in a 10 acre pen. The goats, even w/ buttons on their horns, spar or fight standing parallel but facing opposite directions and clobber each other in the flank area. So usually when another goat would move even close to this position, the other one would move off. Deer, as you’re probably aware, don’t do this and certainly didn’t recognize the posture when it happened. The result was some surprised deer with swollen flanks until we figured out what was happening. They were then separated.

Anyway, a couple of interesting horn stories.

[Oldways]

Horns make you modify feeders and other things they can get them stuck in. One difficulty is getting my Highlanders into a headgate. You have got to watch so your hands and fingers don’t get caught while turning thier horns to get them in.
When working close to the animal, I always rest one of my hands lightly on a horn, not grabbing, just “feeling” where that horn is. They may have an itch and if your not paying attention you may loose some teeth.

[Anonymous]

Below is the link to an old patent for a horn trainer. It looks like there would be no problem in making it.

I found this site looking for horn weights or trainers. so joined to post this link using tiny url. If the site doesn’t load let me know.

I have a dexter x jersey heifer, and didn’t dehorn her so want to curve her horns in slightly. I have not had any problems with my horned goats other than butting down the stall gates. Fixed that problem with iron cross bars at butting heighth

http://tinyurl.com/r8leoq

[March Hare]

I saw the reply regarding scraping with a knife on the side of the horn you want them to grow away from, but how deep do you scrape. I have a Dexter heifer whose crazy horns grow pretty much straight up. So we want to turn them out and down, then eventually the tips inward… Therefore I am guessing to start, we want to scrape on the inner aspect of the base of each horn, but how much area, and how deep to scrape. Any help greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Tonya
Middle Age Spread Dexters
March Hares Rabbitry

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