Training Questions: establishing dominance/stubborness

[clayfoot-sandyman]

OK, so two questions from this novice ox-man!

Question 1). I was out training my 9 month old steers and my off steer gave me a nudge in the behind to which I responded with a fair old whack with the goad, my understanding being that they should never ever nudge you with their head….
This made me wonder if these steers are getting to the age where they start to push the boundaries to see if you’re really dominant.
It made me wonder if other people have encountered issues with dominance and how they have dealt with it.

Question 2) My nigh steer is ALWAYS a pain in the bum to get out of the stall after he’s had his grain, been brushed and stood for a while. He really drags back on the halter and unless I’m constantly goading him he seems to just stand there. Once I get him up past the barn and onto the track he is fine again. Not sure where to go with this one because each day coming out of the barn is an ugly scene which doesn’t seem to be progressing….

Any thoughts much appreciated. Ed

[dominiquer60]

Ed I am a novice also,

I started mine at 6 months old and after months of frustration, my cattle will try anything that I ask of them, in return I try to only ask reasonable tasks of them. I know that myself and many other folks feed grain after they come in from work. It will cause the team to anticipate going back to the barn for their grain, but it is a good thing to have them get used to, earning their supper.

It may make a difference in your steers attitude if you make a change in your routine. If you do decide to switch, give any routine change some time to work before you decide if it will make a difference or not.

Good luck with your cattle, they really are a joy to work with once they get to that point where your working relationship has settled in to a nice spot.

Erika

[Carl Russell]

I would not get concerned about how the animal is responding to your routine. You should set a routine that works for you, and then do what ever you need to get him to follow it.

They are definitely at the age where they will assert themselves if they feel they are not being led.

I always feed my animals, horses and steers before work them. I never set a routine with the idea that they will be able to understand that they get a reward for following it. The reward is that I am calm and accepting when they do what I want. I am, however, not that when they don’t do what I want.

It is a good idea to teach the steer to move forward by pulling hard until they step, then allowing them to move a few steps with no pressure. However, if you’ve gotten to the point that they are too big for you to pull them forward, you can always pull their head to the side, so that they learn that they have to take a step.

BUT, in the situation as I read it, I would not wait for this knucklehead to get a chance to pull back on the lead. I would step to his side, behind his shoulder and put the goad to him. I like to poke him in the ribs with the butt of the goad so that he moves for me while I am in the lead(this is figuratively as I am beside him), as apposed to me trying to regain the lead after he has challenged it.

Remember, the real lesson is that the animal follow your lead, not that you figure out how to correct an animal that won’t follow. Once they figure out they don’t have to follow, even if you find a way to correct it, they have figured out that there is this initiative they can assert, and that feels so right to them that they will feed on it.

It is a hard concept to grasp sometimes in the beginning, but set-up a series of events in your own mind, and make sure that it is accomplished to the “T”. Just going along for a walk to see how things go will often times lead to a series of corrections.

Keep it simple. Out of the stall, and past the barn without me pulling on you. Let’s see how many times it takes you to figure out that you can do it with ease, and i will reward you by leaving you alone and allowing you to do it freely. I always say, you can’t put on the roof until you have a good foundation.

It is hard to resist the temptation to be at a certain place in training with animals of a certain age, pulling this or that, or moving in a certain way, but you will find that your animals will be more responsive if you learn to read them, and begin to be ahead of them at every turn. This will get their attention, and respect, and it will make a huge difference when they are 7 years old, and you’re stuck with a load of wood on a sled down in a stream bed with no place to go but up……

Carl

[dominiquer60]

You are right Carl, you should not feed as a reward, I am sorry that I gave that impression. I feed my team at night when I do my evening chores regardless of when they have worked if at all. Sometimes I work them before the heat of the day, but often I can only sneak a few minutes in before chore time, then they get fed because I roll right in to chores after, but not as a reward.

I often go for days between working them, but I always make a point to interact with them everyday at feeding time. Whether they are loose in a pasture or tied in the barn, I always make them take a step or two back before I feed them. It was the same when I had horses under my care, I was the leader and I made them move back before they ate. Maybe I am wrong but I feel that this has helped maintain our working relationship even when it has been a couple of weeks since we have done any real work. When we do go back to work we generally manage to pick up right where we left off with me as the leader.

Erika

[Carl Russell]

dominiquer60;20540 wrote:

…. but I always make a point to interact with them everyday at feeding time. Whether they are loose in a pasture or tied in the barn, I always make them take a step or two back before I feed them. It was the same when I had horses under my care, I was the leader and I made them move back before they ate. Maybe I am wrong but I feel that this has helped maintain our working relationship even when it has been a couple of weeks since we have done any real work. When we do go back to work we generally manage to pick up right where we left off with me as the leader.

Erika

This is a big key. I think a lot of people see working as a teamster as that time with a goad or lines in their hands. Every minute is a leadership opportunity, every chore, every tool, any time we are near our animals we need to remember we are they leaders. They want this from us, and if they don’t get it, they will find their own initiative.

The challenge is when you are just beginning to understand something it is hard to act with the confidence that you need because we are trained to connect confidence with understanding. It is a feature used to maintain social structure.

To lead animals effectively we need to allow our selves to be confident in our actions. It is a way of moving… body language. That is why the little tasks, like stepping back a step or two are so important, because these are the times when it is easy to act confident, because there is very little riding on the outcome, so anxiety doesn’t tarnish the presentation.

Carl

[mother katherine]

I agree, that every time we interact with the guys is a time to assert the dominance in a nonthreatening way. I have someone riding me right now because I’m not “training” or “working with” my younger pair of bulls. What he doesn’t understand is, that in every interaction we have, I expect the boys to do as I say – BECAUSE I am the leader/dominant. That takes the form of “head up”, “come up”, changes of direction while walking and when they may have another grazing area or not. If all these kinds of things are under the teamster’s direction on a regular basis, the work under yoke is a bonus and comes much easier.
My bigger guys seem to be coming out of a “just testing” stage: they’re Jersey crosses and about 18 months. They, too, must do as I direct when they’re not under yoke. When they’re “on” they’re pretty near perfect, even just connected by the halter. They’re very much imprinted as calves, but I reassert the dominance in a variety of ways: calm and accepting, showing great pleasure in their performance when they’re “on”; but not so calm or quiet when they’re not. They know they MUST do as I indicate and MUST pay the consequences when they screw up, including touching me with their horns. They even know the the “No”. They also know that “easy” when they’re in my personal space is different from “easy” when we’re out on a load.
They’re smart buggers and expect me to be, too.
oxnun

[richa]

Ed,
I would feed the gain up at the track for a while. Have him follow the bucket of grain. No pain on either end. Probably solve both questions.
Has worked for me.
Richa

@clayfoot-sandyman 20536 wrote:

OK, so two questions from this novice ox-man!

Question 1). I was out training my 9 month old steers and my off steer gave me a nudge in the behind to which I responded with a fair old whack with the goad, my understanding being that they should never ever nudge you with their head….
This made me wonder if these steers are getting to the age where they start to push the boundaries to see if you’re really dominant.
It made me wonder if other people have encountered issues with dominance and how they have dealt with it.

Question 2) My nigh steer is ALWAYS a pain in the bum to get out of the stall after he’s had his grain, been brushed and stood for a while. He really drags back on the halter and unless I’m constantly goading him he seems to just stand there. Once I get him up past the barn and onto the track he is fine again. Not sure where to go with this one because each day coming out of the barn is an ugly scene which doesn’t seem to be progressing….

Any thoughts much appreciated. Ed

[Nat(wasIxy)]

So far with mine the testing seems to come when they are just out of the teeny calf stage and starting to feel like they have some strength – this is when the battle of wills has occurred and each time I have sensed it and made SURE I won, come hell or high water – the one occasion I couldn’t win due to injury, the calf lost all respect and ended up as burgers. Then seemingly by the time they are 9mo+ they don’t even bother testing anymore. It still amazes me now that my simmental who is hundreds of kilos and could easily drag me all over the place does what I want. I’m also convinced and feel somewhat underserving that he truly trusts me – many small instances show me this and I’m humbled every time. My ayrshire is sick and I’m not working him as much as I normally would – I never had a battle of wills with him over anything, perhaps he will try when older?

Has he butted you before? Was it a playful nudge or an attack do you think? not that either should be tolerated but I think it helps you react fairly if know which direction it’s coming from! I’m thinking if it was a one-off, the reaction he got will have cured it, or it might take a couple more times for him to get the message, but not long – if it happens regular and the whacking isn’t helping, something is amiss.

I think if I had been given a meal and a massage and was just settling down for a nice rest, I would not feel too keen on getting out to work either. Dinner of anything other than forage is AFTER work here. (Grass/hay etc is OK though as you don’t want to be working a starving animal straining for every blade of grass it sees, with its mind elsewhere, either).

[Author]

Posts