Training Them Old School

[Carl Russell]

The reason I do most of my training work with horses in harness is not because I am in a hurry, but because that is where I possess the intention required to lead. As wonderful as it looks, I just don’t have any interest in standing horseback on a team driving them through the surf like Lorenzo the Flying Frenchman (Sorry Robert:(), which I say only as a statement to show the extremes that exist in interests and objectives. For me to be engaged in the working setting provides for me a framework within which I can set expectations for my horses.

As J-L describes there is also the benefit of horse reading horse, but even when working single, I find that my intention is at it’s highest when I am undertaking a task of my own devise that has real meaning to me.

To Geoff’s question about standing, it really comes down to two questions, How to get them to stand, AND What to do to reinforce that.
1) To get horses to stand, starts when I first encounter them (this is the hidden part). I know that I can’t get consistent response from an animal unless they are paying attention to me. Some horses have been conditioned to be respectful and to look to humans for guidance, and others not, but either way, if I don’t present myself to them as a leader, they will become indifferent. Donn has described some excellent ways to accomplish this, but for me it is simply a matter of personal presentation. Whether cleaning the stall, or leading them to water, or entering the pasture, I look to them to be constantly aware of me. There are hundreds of ways that I accomplish this, and they all have to do with my personality, modified by experience. This answer has some solid points, but it also purposefully is unclear, because this is where the individual teamster will grow into their own. (not unlike the experiences with other livestock and working dogs)

2) When I expect the horse to stand, I place them where I want them, use words like WHOA, and body language based on the communication that I have been developing from day one. I expect them to stay, but am constantly aware that they may test out their own initiative. When/if they move, I simply move them back. In the case of putting on harness accessories, I will approach them with it (bit, bridle, collar, etc.) but never apply it until they remain still. Repetition and patience. I have to remind myself that there is no such thing as “sort of patient”. When they move I don’t take it personally, they are not “breaking” the rules, just asserting their own initiative. This is MY gig, MY initiative, so I reaffirm that. Sometimes, less these days, I have to go back a step or two and work on other areas where they have consistently accepted my initiative. If you want them to stand, you may be wanting to go get wood out, but you have to be willing to respond to the animal when they “speak” to you, saying “I need help with this standing thing”.

Our biggest challenges as teamsters is managing our own expectations. If we are selfish then we will never make good leaders, similar to when we are uncertain. It takes time to practice pulling together the experience to support purposeful motivation, and the sensibility to be an open partner with the animal. Finding a place where you can work comfortably with the animals can be frustrating, and hard to visualize, but being thoughtful is a great place to start.

Carl

[jen judkins]

I’ve been a student of natural horsemanship for years and I go out of my way to make sure my horses get the best deal possible when I do anything with them. J-L’s story is a wonderful example of natural horsemanship in practice. Its not cheating, its not cutting corners…its using the natural tendency of a horse to seek comfort within a herd….its very simply…smart. There is little stress on the youngster, and when they do get uncomfortable they ‘come back’ quickly, given the seasoned horses responses to the conditions they find themselves in. Over time the youngster learns his own confidence and confidence in the teamster. It doesn’t get any simpler than that for the horse.

I think its wrong to assume we can control every little detail and step along the way in training a horse. They have to be part of the process, make mistakes, get worried and learn how to calm down again, etc. Using their innate tendencies and applying consistent ‘language’ causes the least stress to both horse and teamster. As Carl described, you don’t prevent the horse from moving, you simply correct them by consistently reinforcing your intention for them to stand in a certain spot.

[J-L]

Not only can they work single, they have to skidding logs in tight places and other odd jobs.
I just sent one to be driven in town last year, in traffic on a cart. She does well and is used often in that setting.
Appenix quarter horses are crossed with Thorobred not draft breeds. That is a fact. I have some on the ranch.
In my neck of the woods, a cold blood horse is a draft horse. Maybe that’s regional and in Florida I’d be wrong. I won’t tell you you are absolutely wrong.

Back to training. Donn I was wondering what differences, if any, you see between mules and horses in your roundpen work? That may be a good subject for another post.

[Donn Hewes]

Carl, If I knew how to high light a quote I would paste your opening sentence above. “You don’t use the method you use because you are in a hurry.” Plowboy correct me if I am wrong, But I don’t think you team of trainers would do much different if it had more time. Regardless. The point is you need a method that suits your temperament, your horses preparation, your ability to read when the horse is ready for more or less. I would argue that there is plenty of time to train a horse well; and in fact it is the fastest (and only) way to get a good working partner. To be clear, I think that with the horses Carl has chosen or raised for himself, and with the right Carl, His method is probably perfect for him and them. Same for Plowboy and his family and friends. Not because it is fast, because over time it has proven effective.

What is the point? Don’t judge a method on someone’s saying that this one is quick and this one is slow. Look for some thing that you are capable of. Keep it simple. Any method you use is time well spent, if you can focus on the animal. There is plenty of time to train horses and it goes by very quickly. I think we get a good turn out on these cold mornings! I have got three logs for Connie today! Donn

[jen judkins]

@manesntails 5595 wrote:

How many animals trained by being hooked totally green with an older more steady animal can then be hooked alone and taken to town? Just about zero. If you think that in a month’s time the green horse is doing just fine and learned it all from the other horse, just hook him single then tell me what you’ve got…… an emotional wreck. You taught the horse NOTHING. He is not relying on you directing him.

Manes, My peanut was trained this way….. He was harnessed with a seasoned horse for a week, then he was harnessed single and he did alot of light work alone…happily. By the end of 3 weeks I was skidding wood with him myself in the woods. He is not emotional about it at all. I can drive him all over town (and he has to go alone, as I do not have a pair for him).

I don’t understand why you are so sure of your position on this? I’d be in some serious doubt by now, given the information shared here.

[Carl Russell]

While milking I thought of an example that just occurred a few weeks ago. The two horses that I am working currently have been together since early summer 08. Due to my overall schedule that doesn’t equate to a lot of time, but they have been used for quite a few tasks. Recently I have been logging regularly with them.

The night in question we returned to the barn as usual. I drive them into the barn doorway and stop them. This is where I have always unharnessed my horses. I do not cross-tie them. They are expected to stand. I braid the lines into the britchen with a chain stitch, then go to their heads and undo the lines from their bits, and take off the bridles one at a time. Then I release the hame clip, lift the hames off the collar, slide the collar over their head, turn around and put the collar away, then go to the rear, lift the tail out of the britchen, slide the britchen and back-pad up onto my shoulder, and lift the hames and harness off the horse. This is obviously one at a time. At this point the horse in question moves as I speak to them to go into their stall.

On this evening, my Ted horse, the first I unharness, went past his current stall and into his old one. I knew this was going to confuse him, and he turned around and headed right back toward the barn door. I calmly hung up the harness and stepped forward to direct him into his stall. When I did that, the Kate horse turned and headed out of the barn into the paddock. When Ted was in his stall I walked out into the paddock and approached the mare, at first she thought she’d keep going, but I expanded my aura (however you want to put it) and reinforced to her that I would approach her to lead her back to the barn. She stopped, and I put a hand under her chin, and led her back to the spot in the doorway. She stood there while I unharnessed her, then walked into her stall when I was ready.

Now how I got here goes back to the very first interactions that I have with these animals. I will try to outline some of the basics of my relationship with my horses.

I always put my horses out in the pasture without halter. The very first exercise we work on is accepting the halter from me. This is similar to some of the round pen work done by others, but I just do it in the pasture. I approach the horse with intention. It doesn’t matter to me exactly what my intention is, just that I am big, and motivated. Sometimes the horse may accept that, but most times they don’t. This is OK, because I want to establish a pattern of stimulus and response. As I approach, the horse may see me as a threat. I continue to approach, and when the horse shies, I establish by several methods, such as stopping when the horse stops, that
I am no threat. This says “This is ME, I am Safe”.

It won’t take long for the horse to realize that even though I am not a threat, that they can keep away from me. Any horse worth a damn will quickly find joy in trying to keep away, trying to lead me. I continue to approach until it becomes obvious to the horse that I am not following, but pushing them. At this point they may become threatened again. Again I establish by various methods, “This is ME, I am Safe”. Repetition.

Some days, with some horses, I can continue to move right through the process until the horse stands for me to approach and halter them. Other days, and other horses, I have to get to a place where it is clear that they need more time. I have to be prepared to get what I can, and show that I am willing to work with them. It rarely takes more than several rounds.

Sometimes having other horses in the pasture that can demonstrate their calmness with the process will help, but a threatened horse can also incite a riot, then it becomes an even bigger exercise of reaffirming with the others first. But this is not altogether bad, because even when working as a team an inexperienced horse can pay too much attention to the experienced horse, becoming threatened and confused, and I need to have a direct connection to each animal, and all of them at the same time, so working with them all in a group can have its benefits.

Once I can approach the animal and they accept the halter I have my communication system, ” This is ME, I am Safe, This is what I want to do, It is safe”. I just repeat this over and over, rewarding the horse with calm and safety whenever they respond positively. From walking to be led, to taking the bit, to dragging a log, to standing while being unharnessed, “This is ME, I am Safe, This is what I want to do, It is safe”.

Some horses get this once and can move on with only minimal reinforcement, others need this guidance time and again until they finally get it. Rather than focusing on specific step-by-step exposure I just keep paying attention to how the animal responds as I take them into new experiences. The problem I have with the pat step-by-step process is that horses are habitual creatures and they can become so used to the limited exposure, that they have to be hand-held every time they are expected to do something new. I want to have working horses that will follow my lead into new and different, and possibly frightening situations. So once they show me that they are comfortable with our basic communication, I start moving into any situation that I want, including harnessing and working.

So in the barn that evening I expected the horses to stand, which they did, but Ted tried out something new. It brought an element of confusion, uncertainty, which caused a break-down in a process that has habitual characteristics, but it didn’t break down the basic communication. I met Ted with calm certainty that he was OK, and was going to go into his stall, which he did precisely because he could see that everything was safe with me, AND that I had expectations for him. Kate picked up on the confusion, and apparent freedom expressed by Ted, and she tried her own initiative, but when I showed her that I was taking it all in stride, and that the same old basics were still in play, she responded positively with minimal direction (hand under chin).

The next night they stood like statues.

(An aside: Some times I find that all of my horses have followed the moose through the fence and have wondered off, sometimes miles by the time I find them. More than once I have received comments because I approach as many a 4 horses running free in a new pasture with no halters on, and one at a time I put on halters, take the leads, and head for home)

I think it is clear that this has nothing to do with hitching and dragging.

Carl

[Robert MoonShadow]

Carl… thank you. Your words help a lot, for me to understand – or at least to verbalize what I’ve felt to be right, without knowing why. Last week, one of the mules jumped the fence & was wandering up on the side of the mountain above. I just didn’t have the energy after climbing halfway to him, to play his usual “muley games” that his owner accepts. I just calmly went to the gate, opened it & said “C’mon, Bobby” & he just walked right in… and I can now understand why, a bit better… I hadn’t bribed him w/ the usual can of oats – I just expected it of him (hoped for, actually, but he didn’t know that 😉 ). I intended for him to do it, and I’ve always takened the time to create a ‘safe’ aura. Anyways, its good to have that reinforcement of my perceptions as being correct, by experts such as yourself.

[near horse]

2) When I expect the horse to stand, I place them where I want them, use words like WHOA, and body language based on the communication that I have been developing from day one. I expect them to stay, but am constantly aware that they may test out their own initiative. When/if they move, I simply move them back. In the case of putting on harness accessories, I will approach them with it (bit, bridle, collar, etc.) but never apply it until they remain still. Repetition and patience. I have to remind myself that there is no such thing as “sort of patient”. When they move I don’t take it personally, they are not “breaking” the rules, just asserting their own initiative. This is MY gig, MY initiative, so I reaffirm that. Sometimes, less these days, I have to go back a step or two and work on other areas where they have consistently accepted my initiative. If you want them to stand, you may be wanting to go get wood out, but you have to be willing to respond to the animal when they “speak” to you, saying “I need help with this standing thing”.

Carl – Thank you! This is the stuff I (we) are looking for.

Our biggest challenges as teamsters is managing our own expectations

Or even identifying expectations. For new teamsters the quandry can be “what is reasonable to expect from this horse at this time”

Let me use a recent example. I was working with each of my horses individually (one in the pasture while the other was with me). We just went over some basic stuff – giving me my space, loose leading, standing untied …
They each did fine until we walked down the road out of sight – then they started to get anxious (they are kind of herd bound). The partner was nickering while the one in hand was having trouble paying attention to me. So, what should I have done?
call it good and head back to the herd.
continue onward competing for attention
refocus the horse on me (send energy through lead rope, yield his hindquarters …) then continue

[near horse]

Sorry if the last post seems to end abruptly – I accidently sent it before I was ready. So add on to the last post:

I’m not sure at what point or how to reinforce the “This is ME, I am Safe” concept at that point.

[Carl Russell]

Geoff, this is an inadequate medium for really concrete advice, but I think you answered your own question. Were you expecting everything to be OK walking down the road? If you were, perhaps you hadn’t visualized what to do if the animals didn’t share your expectation. Sounds like you had a few ideas, but you were rattled because you weren’t prepared for the way they reacted.

This is OK, IF you realize it, and work to change it (it can be a chronic problem when accepted, and leadership is given back to the horse). in other words see it as a line you worked up to. Go back and work on what you know works, and while you’re doing that, start visualizing how you’re going to take this to the next level.

Perhaps you need to become more confident that the animal WILL appreciate the reward you give them, so that YOU know that there is a reason for the horse to follow you, and not pay anymore attention to the other horse.

If you find these problem areas, that seem to be unsolvable, don’t keep revisiting them until you feel you can get at least a little way past the line, otherwise it will also become a habitual limit. But, when you do, and you get a little progress, recognize it, reward it, don’t try to get the pie, when a slice will do for now. One of the training gurus used to say “Recognize the slightest tries” (sorry I can correctly attribute that quote)

Carl

[jen judkins]

@near horse 5607 wrote:

Let me use a recent example. I was working with each of my horses individually (one in the pasture while the other was with me). We just went over some basic stuff – giving me my space, loose leading, standing untied …
They each did fine until we walked down the road out of sight – then they started to get anxious (they are kind of herd bound). The partner was nickering while the one in hand was having trouble paying attention to me. So, what should I have done?
call it good and head back to the herd.
continue onward competing for attention
refocus the horse on me (send energy through lead rope, yield his hindquarters …) then continue

Geoff, I’ll be interested to hear what Carl or Donn would do, but since I have a quiet moment in my day, I’ll tell you what I generally do in that situation. First, I don’t take it personally. When you take a horse to the point where he is worried, you can use that to reinforce your leadership. I think of these spots on the road going away from the barn as thresholds…if you go through too many before becoming aware that your horse’s anxiety is escalating, then you may have to just go back to where he feels confident again. But if you can pick up on the anxiety when it is at alow level, you can keep your horse’s attention and be constructive. Generally, when I sense some anxiety in my youngster, I get him moving his feet, yielding his forequarters or hind quarters, changes of direction or even sideways, then we go back towards the barn with that kind of activity…so its alittle work for him. When he is calm, I withdraw that pressure to keep him moving and we walk quietly away from the barn again. Most of the time you will get quite abit further away from the barn this time, as the horse senses that it is simply easier to walk away from the barn, than have to go backwards or sideways towards the barn. I hope that makes sense. You then simply build on that…make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult. Keep in mind that you don’t want to get to the point where your horse is panicked. They don’t learn well in that state. But its good to get them to the point they are looking for a leader…you just have to step up and give them the plan.;)

[Gabe Ayers]

I didn’t take Plowboy’s story to mean he was a cave man among cave men.

Such criticism of anyone’s methods that have lead in a very proven way to the success of that groups level of actually working their horses – is unwarranted to say the least. It simply is YOUR opinion Manes and Tails….

Just because it was titled “Old School” doesn’t mean the folks don’t have a relationship with their horses. They speak the language of equis and they speak through the body language of horsemen. Their horses are responding to good instruction and in this case, as in most others that actually work their horses – the form is followed by function. They actually get something done in the process, which is the only reason anyone should have a work horse in the first place.

I think the title “Old School” is more of a reference to doing things in a neighborly, cultural, community based way of working with folks of common interest that live close by. That is what makes it traditional and old school. Their methods of training are modern, successful and until someone does at least that much themselves then their criticism is usually to be taken with a grain of salt.

I agree that you (Manes and Tails) should share your methods and techniques of your driving trainer, we are all open to learn.

This is of course just MY opinion. I think all of this sharing about training is beneficial to everyone that has a young horse that needs training or is just working horses themselves and wants to learn from others experience. This is particularly important if the horse is expected to be a productive working animal.

Negative criticism is not beneficial to anyone. Constructive criticism may be beneficial. No-one on this site claims to be a professional trainer, so teach us…..don’t dish us, please.

[near horse]

Thank you guys once again for your feedback.

[near horse]

so teach us…..don’t dish us

And Jason, I think the word you were looking for is “dis”;)

[Plowboy]

My Dad is a fulltime dairy farmer and in the winter doesn’t get away more than a couple times a month with feeding, milking, repairs and chores. Sometimes in the dead of winter a trip to the feed store, hardware, grocery store, and barber shop is enough of an outing to break up the monotony. I live nearby and pitch in when I can. When I have time off we go on adventures to locate horsedrawn equipment, parts, the harness shop, visit our Amish friends, and some of our old mentors that don’t get out much in the winter. He enjoys all these things and is glad to get away for a few hours. Most of all he loves these days we spend training horses. I just saw him last night at milking and he still had a big grin on his face. I’m glad we get together with our draft friends even in the off season. It revitalizes the soul a little bit and excites you to find more jobs for your own horses. In other words playing is more fun when you have friends around than when you are by yourself. The events that we hold as a group also help excite others to keep on going, network to share info and look forward to the next gathering. I’m not going to defend any of my methods as I am always open to new info and techniques. Our horses are friendly, happy,and eager to please so thats enough for me. For a little while I thought I had commited some terrible act but most of you actually do the same things we do. Either we’re all wrong or there is some common agreement in the way most of us train and prepare our horses for work. I’m glad this thread is going still and hope that some of the beginners will get some usefull information from the dialogue here. In the meantime I’ll be dashing through the snow every chance I get having fun with friends and getting some horses trained in the process. I haven’t got the grin off my face yet either! TALLY HO!!

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