Training Them Old School

[Donn Hewes]

Pat step by step meets Working for a purpose.

Plowboy, it has been a fun and interesting thread despite a little tension. for me it has helped to define the space we need to fill for those that want to join us in working with horses. That is a goal I am really interested in.

Pat step by step (my method?!) should help people avoid getting stuck. The purpose of the steps is not so you can check them off as completed but, rather to assist a teamster in seeing their relationship with the animal for what it is; and improving it were need be. Markers that when properly utilized will help inform the teamster of what the horse is ready for. The fact that some of us may not need a checklist doesn’t mean you are skipping steps. It just means you have developed a natural sense of this relationship, and secure the relationship without much conscious thought. I see this as training for teamsters as much as; if not more than, for horses.

Pat step by step should be guiding folks directly to hooking their animals. It should help avoid being “trapped in the round pen”. The first work to be done should be laid out before you catch the horse the first time. I have had Connie for two and a half weeks. I was away at a conference, I had a cold, I have a full time job, and today she skidded her first logs from the wood lot to the house for fire wood. I am not suggesting that is slow or fast, but that I knew the day she arrived what the first thing she would do in harness was. Knowing what I wanted her to do directed every moment of her training. I also took a lot of pictures. I hope I can post a few tonight.

Fifteen minutes in a rope halter doesn’t hurt a horse, or take away their ability to look to you as the leader or learn from you directly in challenging circumstances. If I came back and kept repeating the same skit day after day because I didn’t know what to do next, horses will quickly realize I don’t know what I am doing. Today was Connie’s first day in the woods, she started to wade off the trail, soon she was up to her waist in snow, she lay down, she looked at me as I moved a little from behind her, I gave her a second to compose herself, then she got up when I encouraged her. She stayed in the traces and was calm the whole time. I think these are the small occurrences that you are talking about Carl, that strength the trust between the animal and the person. Hopefully my steps would help get someone there who might not have all the experience to know exactly when a horse is ready for what.

[Carl Russell]

Donn, the pat step-by-step I was referring to was laid out by M&T, with certain pieces of harness, hardware, and exercises, with time limits, and over a particular time period.

I certainly have a pattern, as do you, that I use as a skeleton for my process. I have not taken the step to try to define it so another can follow it. I commend you for doing that. I think organizing an approach is different than laying out a rigid protocol. I understand your approach to be more test and evaluate, than a series of limited universal exposures.

Geoff, I thought a bit more about your question about expectations and realized that there really are two sets of expectations. 1) the expectations we have for our horses, what we intend them to do, like stand, or lead quietly, and 2) our own personal expectations of what we want to do, like buy a horse, harness it, and log off the back forty.

When I refer to managing expectations, I mean the second one. It is important to have an objective that leads to expectation, but if we let that get in the way of the reality of where we are with the horse, it will lead to frustration, and possible injury.

As far as setting expectations for the horse, it comes down to experience, and exposure. I spent a bunch of time early on, visiting a few highly respected teamsters, and watched them work with their horses. This was not as important in watching what they were doing, but what they were getting out of their horses by what they were doing. I also learned a lot by watching knuckleheads, seeing what I didn’t want.

Carl

[manesntails]

@near horse 5617 wrote:

And Jason, I think the word you were looking for is “dis”;)

With all the books on driving training out there, just about anyone interested in training their own driving horse knows there is the “Old Method” and the methods now taught by driving instructors. Most of you know there is a choice but choose the fast way over actually learning how to teach a horse in a step by step method.

In writing a thread about how you are learning the old method you have already chosen.

I can’t possibly teach anyone how a Standardbred is trained unless I have the person with me in a hands on application. You can’t put into words how to “read” the horse to tell when to move on or when to repeat a lesson without writing a book on the subject.

It pains me to see how many choose to use the old methods instead of really learning how to teach the animal.

[near horse]

I spent a bunch of time early on, visiting a few highly respected teamsters, and watched them work with their horses. This was not as important in watching what they were doing, but what they were getting out of their horses by what they were doing. I also learned a lot by watching knuckleheads, seeing what I didn’t want.

I’d gladly spend some time w/ highly respected teamsters but (not making excuses here) in this neck of the woods there seem to be more people to learn about what not to do. They can be very nice and even well intentioned but I’ve seen and heard some things that I would find intolerable in my horses. I guess it makes me feel that my horses’ issues, while still needing work, are not nearly as serious.

Kudos to many of you that I notice are in the recent issue of Rural Heritage in an article about horse logging/farming apprenticeships.

In other words playing is more fun when you have friends around than when you are by yourself. The events that we hold as a group also help excite others to keep on going, network to share info and look forward to the next gathering.

So true plowboy. The best times I have had w/ my horses are when working them with other teamsters. I guess this is true for lots of people in their endeavors – snowmobilers, campers, fishing …. all seem to come together to share the experience.

If I came back and kept repeating the same skit day after day because I didn’t know what to do next, horses will quickly realize I don’t know what I am doing.

Donn – this statement smacked me right in the head w/ a big “wakeup”! I have taught science in Jr high and HS and one of THE key factors in getting through to kids is whether they believe you know what you’re talking about. Credibility. Kids are quite good at recognizing who’s “blowing smoke”. It shouldn’t surprise me (although it did:o) that horses would be able to do it as well. I guess that’s why I come to this site – there’s plenty here to open my eyes, test my beliefs, and comfort my soul.

Thanks!

[Robert MoonShadow]

Manesandtails… show me why your way is 1) Vastly different than these others. 2) Why it is better. I’ve never really driven a horse, so I have no real preconceived ideas on what’s best or second best or just plain wrong. I’m here to learn. You’re not teaching, you’re bitching about others’ techniques. So, I’m asking you to teach… is your way better? From what little you’ve actually said on it, I don’t see much difference, really, in either the technique nor the end result. I pay attention to those who speak with wisdom, not just knowledge. I pay VERY close attention to Donn – I watched that slide show of Connie twice – so far. In that picture where they’re approaching the dog? Connie is making her own assessment of this dog (danger? okay?) while I can plainly see with only 1 eye, that she’s also very aware of what Donn’s reaction & assessment is. And he’s allowing her (see how the lines aren’t supertight?). I’d be interested in knowing what she did next, there; stop, keep going, get agitated…? Look at the other photos… he lets her sniff & assess & figure things out while she kept working.THAT’S what I want with my animals. I want my animals to be able to think for themselves, while keeping me in their minds. I don’t (yet) know how he does that, but I’m able to learn some more in just about each of his postings. Can you do this? I’m not being snide… I really want to know. If so, then speak out & show me a way. Because you haven’t even tried, as yet, and that means I miss an opportunity to learn from you. Thank you for reading my thoughts.

[Carl Russell]

A few months ago I was at a workshop where several experienced folks were working with those with less, trying to work out some rough spots. One discussion came around to dealing with a horse that is acting scared, or seems to be shying, or in general not able to calm down. The example was “What do you do if your horse sees a tiger in the grass?”

MY technique is to ignore the horses expression. Not pretend it isn’t happening, but primarily not validate it. I am first saying, “what is there, is no threat to me”, and secondly ” I’ll take care of that tiger, it may be there, but trust me, it will be no threat”.

If you follow the horse and get distracted by the tiger in the bush, then progress will be nearly impossible. The same goes for nay sayers on the side lines.

Donn, my reference to pat step-by-step methods was also primarily addressing systems that condition a horse through prescribed exposures, rather than a process that develops a working relationship between horse and human. The point was that horses can be conditioned quite effectively, but those animals don’t learn how to work with the human, or vice versa.

An additional comment about helping folks who want guidance. I applaud you for trying to answer that need. That has never interested me, partly because I followed great men around as a kid, and picked up so much in vague ways that most of what I do is instinctual, and partly because I have gotten sick of trying to sort out who is really going to take what I’ve offered seriously and go somewhere with it.

What I have concentrated on is working with people who have gotten the basics worked out with guidance from folks like you, or the Baileys, to learn the work of working horses, particularly logging. My gig is seeing people learn enough about the work so that they can be effective leaders.

The disconnect that I have seen so many times is that someone thinks they can drive a horse so now they can go logging, or farming. Most of the time, at least around here over the last 30-40 years they get burned out, frustrated, or hurt, because they spend most of their time either letting the horse get away with coasting, or trying to force it to do more than it can in unreasonable situations.

Unfortunately for some this requires revisiting “old ways” when horses were worked effectively. (yes there were far too many examples of abuse, which always overshadow the good examples) It is more the culture of those people who slept, ate, and lived in a world powered by animals that we seek. The no-nonsense realistic application of animal power to meaningful work.

That should lead to a discussion of the network we are developing to get people off the ground with horse-human-work relationships that can last. If we can get enough farms together who can/will offer apprenticeship/training in combination with an incubator model, then folks can come away not only with experience and knowledge but possibly a team and some infrastructure to support their future endeavor. (I acknowledge that Jason (as well as others I am not aware of) has already put many years into just such a model)

Carl

[Carl Russell]

First of all I didn’t mean to suggest that anyone in general, nor Donn specifically, was creating a disconnect, or even not taking students to another level, or that somehow I was stepping in to fill in where others have failed. I only tried to describe what I feel comfortable providing as guidance for others.

Because so much of what I do is based on instinct that it is very personal. I was guided by people who learned to trust their instincts, and “taught” me to find the same thing for myself. Using Geoff’s example of trying to lead his horses away from each other, I cannot adequately respond to him, precisely because in that situation I would probably run through a hundred scenarios, and techniques within my mind, in a matter of minutes, and apply what I think will work best, and if it doesn’t, I try something else. I realize that that is not how many people, work, so I find Donn’s approach very valuable.

An example of conditioning training is the “bitting harness”. I know that there are many people who use one, or a similar process to their advantage, but I never have. To me, I don’t want my horses conditioned to accept an unyielding piece of steel in their mouths. I want to teach my animals to “feel” my guidance through the bit, which can take a lot of time and many different (working) situations. My choice is to never let the animals think of the bit as anything but a direct link between me and them. So rather than letting the horse get comfortable or habitual with the application of any particular aspect, or amenity of the working set-up, I want to have a relationship that transcends those things, and is continually momentary. Not only do I know that I don’t want my animals to have conditional response, I know that I don’t need that, and I have found that by working my animals, training never starts, and never ends, because communication is continual.

As far as a Draft Animal Power Network, I think that we all are pulling together different pieces of a complex puzzle, some may have all the pieces together at once, but more likely we each hold keys that are applicable to different people at different stages in their development. I would love to see the connections we are making here lead to something productive and powerful for this community of interest.

Carl

[Iron Rose]

You talk about these people using “Old School Methods”. From what I have read in these posts sure doesn’t seem Old School to me. We had a neighbor when I was a kid that traded horses. He bought anything that was cheap(both saddle stock and work) broke them out for resale. Let me tell you he was Old School, but he got the job done. Didn’t really care if the horse liked him or not, but they respected him( I know what your thinking that it was more fear then respect but sometimes its a narrow line-between). He always said there is only one boss around hear and the sooner they realize it the better. Now these horse were not the gentle backyard horses we have today. Some of these were mean and nasty. I won’t say what he did but he got the job done.

Now I really don’t agree with using some of his methods as they are not necessary today. Today’s horses for the most part are raised around people and for the most part gentle(a lot are just plain spoiled). I’ve trained many horses over the years and have never found any two the same. Some need a lot of ground work and others not so much. You have to treat each as an individual. I’ve always found that horses or mules respond better when they have a job to do or they get bored, when they get bored they are like a kids and they don’t learn.

If your way works for you great but don’t run down everyone that doesn’t think as you do.
Dan

[Robert MoonShadow]

Carl; I think you do just fine, in your ability to communicate your thoughts & experience on here. Many of the things you, Donn, and others speak of, seem to me, to have several common threads; one of which is to allow the animal to think, and not just be robotic. I like that. If I wanted something that could do the work and never have a thought for itself, I’d buy a tractor. I understand why you would choose not to spend time & effort on teaching people who just don’t take it seriously. I thought to tell you that I {and I’m quite sure others on here} do appreciate your efforts. Sometimes you can make an impact on someone’s thought processes without ever knowing it. It’s very important for me to “know the why of it”. I’m with Geoff on trying to figure out how to tell what’s pushing the animal too far & not far enough. I know it’s an individual thing – different for each animal – but I’m stumped on how to develop that knowledge on being able to tell the difference.

[near horse]

Hi Carl and others,

I remind you that education is a 2-way street – the “teacher” teaches via words, example, demonstration …. BUT the “student” must be willing to accept or at least be open to the lesson being taught. Unfortunately, the second part is not under the control of the “teacher”. So then do we just say “Screw it. They aren’t taking what I’m teaching so forget it.” No. We don’t do that with the horses and, based on your development of this site and valuable input, you don’t do that to us “greenbroke” teamsters.

As I was feeding this morning, I thought of how I feel somewhat like Donn’s new horse Connie:confused:

[Today was Connie’s first day in the woods, she started to wade off the trail, soon she was up to her waist in snow, she lay down, she looked at me as I moved a little from behind her, I gave her a second to compose herself, then she got up when I encouraged her. She stayed in the traces and was calm the whole time. I think these are the small occurrences that you are talking about Carl, that strength the trust between the animal and the person. Hopefully my steps would help get someone there who might not have all the experience to know exactly when a horse is ready for what. /QUOTE]

Sometimes us new folks can “wade off the trail” and get “up to our waist” in it. It is much easier to compose oneself, get up and calmly move forward and “stay in the traces” when we have competent, confident support that we trust. That’s what (I) we are looking for and although distance may limit the “hands on” part of the education, don’t discount how important your words of support and encouragement can be.

If we can get enough farms together who can/will offer apprenticeship/training in combination with an incubator model, then folks can come away not only with experience and knowledge but possibly a team and some infrastructure to support their future endeavor. (I acknowledge that Jason (as well as others I am not aware of) has already put many years into just such a model)

As I mentioned earlier, there was a nice piece about apprenticeships in Rural Heritage (w/ some of our DAF members in it). I’m a little confused about the “Incubator” part of your message, Carl. Can you elaborate?

Because so much of what I do is based on instinct that it is very personal. I was guided by people who learned to trust their instincts, and “taught” me to find the same thing for myself.

Carl, Instinct is how the skunk named “OUT” found his brother named “IN”. In stinked:(

More seriously, I know what you’re trying to say but humans aren’t born understanding horse behavior. Instinct would say – “Horse. Bigger, faster, stronger than me. Run away! Run away!”. You also learned from observation and experience – of horse behavior, teamsters, other animals …. and from there you had a base to build on that is now what seems to be instinctual. Just want to emphasize the importance of observation. Albeit, some folks are better at recognizing and observing than others. “Others” are often called clueless.:)

[Carl Russell]

Geoff,
An incubator program would involve extended opportunity to develop and integrate personal material gains while still working in apprenticeship on another’s operation. The old example is the herdsman starting heifers at the farm where he works so that when he’s ready to go out on his own, he’s got his own herd started. (His/Her:rolleyes:) This is one possible answer to the disconnect thing that puts the brakes on progress so often.

Instinct is deeper than species recognition. I know that we all possess instincts that recognize connection to all other life forms. Body is a constant that transcends all animal life, and we have very similar body language to all other animals. There is no doubt that observation and experience will help to refine and define it, but allowing ourselves to accept an inadequacy in practicing an innate behavior is one of the first road blocks to overcome.

There is also an intuitive aspect to instinct that is probably even more to the point. Allowing your intuition to play a primary role in your relationship with your animals will serve you (in my opinion, mind you) well. My grandfather used to say, “Always trust your initial intuition!”. (take it or leave it, I live by it) Unfortunately we live in such a mechanical and scientific world culture now, we are conditioned from birth to disregard our instinctual intuition.

For example you mentioned Donn’s comment hit a chord with you about what you know from being a teacher of humans. I believe that to be an instinctual/intuitive revelation. Allow me. Your body responded to a familiar feeling of presentation of leadership. I don’t think you have to figure out horses as much as you need to find that feeling and bring it to your horses. Please if I am speaking out of turn, excuse me, but you know the 2-way street thing, I thought I’ld try it out.

Good luck, Carl

[Plowboy]

Donn I commend you for trying to gather a curriculum for beginners. Good job with the slide show on getting Connie started. For me it would be hard to break things down into steps. For me it seems simple from the way I was taught by my great mentors. To write it down or say everything that should be said would be very complex and hard to explain. It all comes down to reading horses and that is a hard skill to learn on purpose. I learned from being around hundreds of different horses with different personalities both well trained and rank beginners. I learned from being there. To those that didn’t even know my name I was the “boy”. “Have the “Boy” help you get hitched”. “Have the Boy run and get you a new hame strap”. I was the quiet boy that listened when old men spoke and quietly squirreled away the information in my head to recall later. I guess I just can’t put it all into words myself. I’ve seen some wrecks and helped untangle them and remembered how they happened so I could avoid them. I’m not a professional trainer and never will be but I can get horses to work and they work well for us. I’m proud of each one of them individually and how they work together in multiple hitches. I help whoever I can but there’s no way I would be able to spell out every situation. I can feel or sense things that I know are right or wrong about a horse and the only way you can get that instinct is to spend years with a pair of lines in your hands and have the right mindset to learn from the horses as well as the mentors. The best advice I could give a beginner is to get good safe animals and spend lots of time driving them to learn their moods, Quirks and personalities. I have a mare I raised from birth that will be 13 next month. She appears alert sometimes and more than once while standing or getting hitched someone has warned me. “Watch that dappled mare she’s gonna fly”. Truthfully she probably wouldn’t move a muscle if someone threw firecrackers under her unless you asked her to. We know her so we’re not alarmed when her head comes up and her ears flick. With her it’s just a curiosity thing but for many other’s I would say look out also. Getting to know your animals well is the best thing you can do. What works for one may not work for the next so flexibility of methods is also necessary but not for expectations. If you make the commitment to train one for a certain task I’m bullheaded enough to see it through until it’s achieved even if I have to use different approaches.

[Mark Cowdrey]

This is one of the most interesting threads we have had. I have asked & contemplated questions of what to do in certain situations many times. Carl & Plowboy are lucky, and way ahead, to have been exposed to so much growing up. We others will never catch up with them. Not that they didn’t put out to get the experience. I do not have that background. I got my first horse 8 years ago & have had 8 different ones here at various times. I have 5 now, 2 young ones.

To prepare myself to answer the questions that arise in day to day work, I identified & hung around with people who knew what they were doing & tried to absorb as much as I could. I started about 12 years ago. I am 54. I should have started sooner. The root problem for the beginner is that you can only learn nuance after the basics have been mastered. Time must be invested. But I worked on my foundation as I could. A note here: As I heard from Bart Cushing, ask 10 horse people a question & you will get 12 different answers. Listen to all the mentors you can find, you will learn from them all. However, there will inevitably come a time when you get conflicting advice & are not in a position to know who is “right”. I decided early on that I would listen to everyone I thought was a good horseman, but when push came to shove, I would hew to the line of one particular person. That gave me consistency & confidence. Confidence is crucial. I believe much of what success I have had with horses came about because it never occurred to me that I couldn’t do whatever I set out to do with them. That attitude is very helpful for keeping my cool when things do go wrong (broken neck yoke, line not hooked, falling down, …).

The other useful tactic or mind set is “belt & suspenders”. I do a lot by myself so I try to give myself a back-up plan. One example is that I always use a butt rope. I don’t know anyone else who does (other than Doc Hamil) but I find it gives me a little extra control .
I also always leave my halters on under my bridles. It’s not what many people I admire do, but if I get in a situation where I need to tie up a horse quickly, I want to be ready to go. It works for me.

The issue of when horses don’t do what you “expect” them to is, for me, best exemplified by standing, or, actually, NOT standing. I work with mine with as much patience as I can muster, which I will freely admit varies from day to day, to correct them. If they step ahead unbidden, it’s ”back “ & “whoa”. Sometimes several times. There are times when they get away with it. Not often, but it does happen. You just have to do the best you can & keep moving forward. It will never be perfect, not in my world. But I do set & work to maintain high expectations.

Finally, every horse is different. One of my biggest challenges is learning what is “horse” & what is this particular horse. This issue makes me think of Carl’s comment about green horns letting horses slack along or expecting too much of them. It has been hard for me to know & find these limits. I feel that you just have to get as much experience as you can, both doing & observing, & that you will get better as time goes on. Remember, the more you know, the more you can learn. I was out riding along on a sleigh W a mentor the other day & seeing what he expected out of a young horse for work adjusted my perception of what I could expect from my team. I was ready to learn that nugget.
Well I’ve gone on & on. All you other beginners out there, keep on keeping on. Thanks so much to Carl & Donn & Plowboy & all you others. I consider this whole site a raging success.

Best,
Mark

[Git-Up-Doc]

I just gotta say I’ve been reading the thread all along and appreciate that it has switched directions from criticizing to explaining.

As I read I have made some notes in my mind, here they go.

Manesntails: I kinda sorta have to agree with you, but not totally. When I think of “old school” I too most often think of people just down right being rough with the horses, however I think that by hitching the horse with an experienced horse it allows it to learn so much more. Just like 4-H “learn to do by doing” and I see it as an apprenticeship.

I have never trained a horse, I have however re-taught, or became more strict with certain commands with my horse after he “forgot”. I have experience training show cattle, this is quite a bit more simple than training a horse for work, but this is where I know what I am doing. I have always taught my cattle slowly and step by step, just like you (manesntails) and I have seen cattle that have been taken from the feed yard and had their spirit “broke” in a day and a half and been shown. I believe just like you and your standardbreds that my cattle are well rounded in their experience, they have been in these situations before and know how to deal. When I see one of these broken cattle pulling the 4-H’er across the arena I understand why. That animal became frightened from something new, a shadow, an applause, camera flash, and it didn’t know what to do. Part of the reason my steer didn’t take-off at that point in time was because I was calm and didn’t overreact, I expressed this through tension of the lead and by a calming “whoaaaa” for reassurance and because of that I kept my animal calm and controlled.

At the same time I think a (draft) horse is capable of taking these new experiences and reacting to them calmly and in a manner that the horse thinks the teamster would want. (if the horse is familiar with the teamster at that point)

I am constantly learning from my horse. That is actually how I learned to drive. When my uncle bought him I ground drove him home, and honestly I learned so much from that walk. I learned about tension and control and respect. I have learned so much from him that I am starting to have nerve and take him into new situations. When I start something new I already have an idea of what I want to happen and so I am confident, and through the reins my horse can feel that confidence and he charges on, learning as he goes. I think this links back with Carl’s Tiger in the grass comment.

I also have many mentors that I talk to and have them explain things to me. Even if the person is a knucklehead (some are) I still talk to them and ask them questions, I just realize who they are and that I do certain things like them. I also take that same question and ask two or three other guys and gauge their responses.

I had a few other things I wanted to mention but I forget them now, I’ll remember at some point and I’ll have to post again.

Thanks for all the helpful advice, everyone. Someday I hope to put it to good use.

[Howie]

I traded the Belgain horses for oxen 52 years ago,:) But I have to say this is the best thread yet.
Good work guys.:cool:

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