Training Them Old School

[manesntails]

I disagree with you Git up Doc about them learning more hooked with another.
I don’t see them learning anything other than buddying up as they would in a herd and mindlessly matching the buddy horse’s motion or be dragged.

If you have never trained a horse without hooking him with another you are not fully cogniscent of what the horse needs to learn. I see alot of you saying your horses won’t stand when you want them to. I take a young horse and practice standing. If you hook with another and go off and do work, how much teaching of “stand” are you doing? I take one an 1/8 of a mile say whoa, exit the vehicle. throw my lines over his back and have a cigarette. I can take mine as far or as short a distance as I want and when I say whoa and stand, they learn it’s for the duration. Why? Because I do it.

You can’t expect them to realize that they are supposed to stand when you say so if you do not make it part of your training to take them places and stand them. Mine learn to relax when I say stand cuz I practice them at it.

Like others have said, you can’t be taught on here to teach a horse to drive. You need to have the hands on experience and a mentor to show you and correct you when you are reading the horse wrong.

For those of you who don’t enjoy hearing that the old methods are not really teaching the horse; that’s an opinion I have from doing it the step-by-step method then seeing and driving horses who were trained the old method. In the old method way of training I have come across far too many horse who not only don’t want to have anything to do with people but who also are fearful of them. I have a 27yo Percheron mare in my pasture right now that will run from you in fear if you show upm enter her range of vision, in a pair of overalls and she is just one of numerous horses I’ve met like that. I have never had that reaction from anything that was trained in a step-by-step method. If you wanted just a bunch of people agreeing with you and praising you, why post on a bulletin board where others might not agree?

[Carl Russell]

Anne, I’ve agreed with so much of what you have to say, just disapprove of the accusatory and intolerant tone(For example: A horse that is being dragged is not being trained, similarly neither is one that purely mimics its team-mate. These are excellent points, but the assumption that we don’t realize that is misplaced. I work with all my animals individually, so that even in a team I have direct individual interaction. They pay more attention to me than each other. This is absolutely critical. A good point, a poor assumption). This last post was by far your most valuable contribution so far. Thanks for hanging in there:).

I never hitch up a horse until they stand. I get the question time and time again, “How do you hook up a log if your horse won’t stand?” I don’t!!!

I have posted a lot in this thread and I am pleased to see it becoming a constructive discussion, I just have one more thing to say.

Yes I was fortunate to have exposure to good mentors (like Anne said is very important), but nobody handed me the keys. Even if you get an in depth training, or go at it alone (with mentors) it will take many years. I figure it took me a good ten years of never giving up, day after day trying, and testing, and asking, and thinking, and watching, and trying some more before I felt “fluent”. Fluent, not an expert, but aware of enough of the fundamentals to function adequately, and I am still refining that understanding.

A good mentor will help you realize that the process is on-going even after 60 years like mine did. There will be moments where you’ll be flooded with realization, like five streams coming together all at once into a main branch of a river. Then there will be moments when you wonder where all the water went.

Anne is right that we all should be aware of how inexperience and misguided selfish attempts can ruin a horse, but I am in no way endorsing that either. The reality is it doesn’t come out of a can. You can get a recipe, which is a good place to start, but at some point your going to have to add your own flavor.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Oh, I know I said I only had one more thing to say, but the problem with morning chores is that my mind often gets working!!!

In fact one of the main reasons I hitch a young/inexperienced horse with one more experienced is to reinforce the individual connection. Of all the behaviors that they can learn from each other, the acceptance of me as leader is reinforced in every movement they make. For the inexperienced horse, working in harness with another horse can be just as distracting as having a chainsaw running under their nose. They learn to focus through the distraction on me.

And unfortunately another thought:

Anne is completely right. In fact I’m sorry I didn’t see this earlier. I am completely serious. The best solution would definitely be to have farms in every region where working horses could get started by the best methods, and then be available at an affordable rate. The problem is that it ain’t happenin’, and I’m not sure that the affordability issue can be addressed, nor that it would be truly sustainable (you know giving a person a fish versus teaching them to fish).

What we have is people who want to farm and log (also many other objectives) with horses (and cattle, mules), who have limited understanding about farming, logging, or forestry, limited understanding of equipment, and limited understanding of animals, and even less understanding of how to put it all together. We also have many many horses that have not had an adequate start.

The fact is we cannot afford to go out and buy it all in a package. Most of us have to multi-task our way into the future we hope will be there.

I think conversations like this one that don’t break down into petty disagreements and name calling are extremely important to solving the problem. We all come to this from different experiences and capabilities, and I think the underlying purpose for having this discussion is in fact to arrive at an understanding of what makes sense, and can really work.

I’m done:eek:

Carl

[Robert MoonShadow]

@Joel 5675 wrote:

The human being training the single horse needs to think like a horse a little more because the horse looks to an alpha figure for direction on how to act.

Good point: I’m going to keep this in mind as I train/teach my donkey.

I also agree with Carl; Manes’ latest posting was her most valuable in this thread (in my own opinion, of course). The idea of taking the animal for a spin & just stopping & making it stand sounds like a good lesson for it.
And although I agree with the overall statement that you can’t learn to drive by just reading this website, I do believe I can learn enough that it’ll surely lessen my chances of a major catastrophe (is there such a thing as a “minor” catastrophe?). You can’t learn how to drive a car by reading a book… but you sure as hell can learn the concepts – and the rules of the road. Especially since I don’t have any mentors around. I taught myself how to hunt by reading a book… or fifty… and then going out & doing it. I didn’t have a father or mentor then, neither. 35 years later, I’m starting to get the hang of it. It’s either take what I can get here & do it… or not do it at all.
That’s just not an option.

[manesntails]

Well Carl, I think it’s hard to correctly interperet tone of voice on a bulletin board where you can only assume the inflection used by the writer. If I were speaking face-to-face with you I believe you would not hold the same opinion of my posts.

One point you make; that I am wrong in assuming that people are not aware that the horse isn’t learning when being dragged along (your blue highlighted sentence) by another is lost on Joel here who just asked what’s wrong with hooking a green one with an older one. What’s wrong is that you are “making” the green horse comply instead of taking the time to teach and to physically condition that green horse to the work at hand.

If you don’t take the time to properly bit the animal in the stall, teach him to flex and give to the bit, linedrive him, have him pull more and more weight singly then actually drive him single by himself, he is then at a disadvantage when hooked double and not only has to figure out his role as a horse who is part of a team but also everything else, including pulling weight in harness all at once. Not fair to ask him that much all in one step.

You hook one who has been working and is fit for the task, he is not going to even start to sweat after 30 min work. You take that horse and hook him with a green one when the young, green one is not fit for 30 minutes work and starts sweating after only 15 minutes partly due to nerves and part due to the fact that he is not physically conditioned to work that hard that quickly, and you are asking too much too fast. Next day the greenie thinks of this as a pretty rotten experience he went through and usually has the sore muscles and sore mouth to prove it. Just because horses are strong animals does not mean that they can comfortably do more work in one day than they did the day before.

This is the problem with the old method. It focuses on ease of application for the handler and has little sympathy for the animals emotional and physical well-being.

[dominiquer60]

Oh, the catching up one has to do after a few days off.

I have enjoyed procrastinating going to bed by reading the entire thread, it was well worth my time. There have been too many great points to focus on at once, thank you everyone experienced and not so much so.

One thing that keeps bothering me is the definition of “Old School.” Jason gave it a good spin, but Manes you continue to see it as only negative, it really bothers me. It seems that more overly abusive hog tying, flying W, break some skin or ribs in the process methods are “Old School” to you. Where as to the rest of the group it involves traditional methods using observation, routine, desensitizing and experience to know when to proceed. I am no expert, I have trained a few horses to ride and a couple to drive. I have seen some terrible methods that include fear, pain and force that have involved standardbreds, drafts, warm, hot, cold and tepid bloods. I have also observed gentle, controlled, safe, methods that have involved saddles, singles, teams, 3 ups, halters, no halters and with all types of horses. I feel that throughout history there has always been his way, her way and everybody else way. I am sure that there were gentle horse whisper types long before giant marketing schemes made money off of books and videos, and there has always been the harsh type as well. So it hurts me to see “Old School” used to imply harsh training methods when it really could mean any training method passed down through generations. It seems like the important thing to this group is that training is as resistance free and effective as possible. I am sure that a horse can be just as terrorized if it is poorly trained as a single as it could be poorly trained in a team.

Manes if you were to go to any of the working farms of any of the more experienced folks contributing to this sight and single out a younger animal that was not extensively trained as a single, you would have a pleasant experience 9 times out of 10 (there are always exceptions, even with your single method). These are good horse people, some of the best, they don’t need a fan club to be credible, you would see that their horses are well behaved, content, safe and respectful, not fearful run away from you like the obviously misused Halflingers that you refer to.

Some of your methods are similar to that which you object to. I think it is great how you expect your horses to stand, these folks do too, maybe to have a cig, but more often to fell a tree, clear a path, fill a wagon etc. It really is similar if you think about it. My fondest memories of college involved an “Old School” pair of Clyde ponies, mare and stud. We would spread manure by moon light after chores. Often the spreader was broke so we spread “Old School” with pick forks off the back of a wagon. We looped the lines up and they would “walk up,” turn and “whoa” by voice until the wagon was empty. This team would often place well at state fair as well, something tells me that they were broke the more gentle “Old School” way.

Erika

[Plowboy]

I forced my 22 month old stud colt to comply with his three year old sister this afternoon for the first time. They stood quietly to be harnessed and put together. I ground drove them out to the sleigh on a loose line. We had to coax Dixie over the tongue because she hadn’t had to in a while. They stood calmly to be hitched and when I chirped to them they started pretty good but not perfect. They pulled pretty even for the 30 minutes we were out there and parked the sleigh on the rails where they found it. I even had them back up a couple times with no trouble. It was Dan’s 6th double hitch and I’m real proud of him. They will make a great team by next Spring. Next time out Dan gets hooked back with our big gelding so he can try out his new open bridle!
Tomorrow we’re headed back to the scene of great controversy to hitch probably the same colts and if it goes good maybe some more first timers. I’ve never felt fear or anxiety at that place. The owner knows his horses and their limitations as well as personalities so we depend on him for a briefing before we go out with each team. We have never dragged one yet so apparently they are smart enough to learn from our guidance while following the lead of the other horse. The owners approach is so layed back with his non invasive style that the horses don’t get freaked out.
I’m convinced now more than ever that there will never be one way to train every horse. It cannot be simplified there are too many variables to experience. As Erika brought up before I had the chance as I mentioned in the Mentors thread a while back, Natural Horsemanship is not a new thing. It has been pounced on and commercialized by every one with a round pen and a rope that thought they could make a buck by amazing the hobby horse enthusiast into buying there snake oil. These methods cannot be classified by new or old. They do work and so do some others. I haven’t seen every method but I’ve seen many. None terrible but some that made sense for the situation.
Resistance training can be a great tool to bring a problem horse back to practical thinking. Snow can be an advantage. A good friend of ours that retrained alot of spoiled horses that couldn’t be straightened out by just being nice to them. He drove several different teams up stream in the Susquehanna river a ways to take the edge off before he worked them on equipment. It probably seems harsh but if he hadn’t done it they would have been dog food.
Another friend had a Haflinger mare that was nervous and took up kicking. He drove her all one summer with ropes running from her halter to hind ankles. Each time she kicked she would yank her head down and soon gave up kicking.
The majority of young unspoiled horses are willing students and with gentle handling become good gentle workers with very few problems. When something does arise and you make the commitment to train a certain animal you must follow through and not give up unless it is more dangerous than you feel comfortable with. Sometimes training methods have to be changed by individual thus going back to my friends “bag of tricks theory”. Sometimes you have to take a different angle on things.

[Anonymous]

Old school? If that means in part being around and working with an animal(s) enough that they know “whoa” and “go”, without special training sessions, when they ready to start actually doing something; knowing enough to bite up the animal for the first time without a “major” hassle and see a marked improvement each day there after; understanding that about 90% of the “problems” getting animals to do what is needed originate with the handler, then I’m guilty ( and will remain so).
Given the millions of acres that have been farmed; millions of yards of material moved and hard telling how many tons of goods transported by animals handled by “graduates” of the “old school” use of the term in a manner suggesting incompetency is more than laughable.
Joe (Ak)

[near horse]

I think it’s hard to correctly interperet tone of voice on a bulletin board where you can only assume the inflection used by the writer.

“Manes”
I too felt your tone to be abrasive so Carl wasn’t the only one. Regardless of your intention and possible valuable contributions, they were buried in what came across as a lot of attitude. Tone of voice is not just the noises that your throat makes – it is your choice of words and how you string them together.

I agree with a few of the previous posters – Horses have been used by man for a long time. I am pretty sure that there were some folks trying about every conceivable method of training during that time. Some gentle. Some brutal. So I would imagine, as the old saying goes, “there is truly nothing new under the sun.” It just gets recycled and repackaged and presented as new. There’s probably some ancient Mongolian horseman looking down at the Earth saying “Horse Whisperer? That was my name – Khan the horse whisperer! Kill the infidel!”

I have to ask what does this statement mean?

I have a 27yo Percheron mare in my pasture right now that will run from you in fear if you show upm enter her range of vision, in a pair of overalls

You have a 27 yr old fashion diva in your pasture? The devil wears Oshkosh.:eek:

Last, while there have been many valuable contributions to this thread I really like what Mark Cowdrey had to say (it was a long post but very practical). His pragmatism has helped put my mind at ease. Thanks Mark.:)

[manesntails]

Geoff, I assume you are being sarcastic with the fashion diva remark, or do you truly not understand that statement?

[Plowboy]

I hope everyone understood the first sentence of my last post. I was being a bit sarcastic and for that I apologize. Our young horses are handled daily and these two in particular are exceptionally laid back and willing to please. On the first trip around the field I noticed the neighbors clotheseline full of red shirts and blue jeans flopping rapidly in the wind. I tightened my grip on the lines a little and proceeded. As we passed 50 feet from this commotion neither of them paid attention to it and the filly was in an open bridle! I’m glad some folks are getting good info from this thread. The good news is it will be archived here so it can be read by anyone in the future who may come across this sight and reread by anyone that wants to remember what was said here. Thanks Carl and Lisa for having this here. This is by far the most genuine sight I have seen with good information and many excellent contributors with different respective and positive points of view. Gotta go finish chores so we can go drive some colts.

[Plowboy]

I was reading back into the posts and reread #66 by “Manes”. I have to disagree about 15 minutes unless the horse is very young. !5 minutes of driving hardly does anything. I thought 30 minutes was a pretty short lesson. I’m not sure what exactly she thinks we are doing. We are driving 3+4 year old big horses. They are soft but if I thought they couldn’t take at least 30 minutes on a small sleigh or empty wagon they wouldn’t be worth much would they? We are not pulling stumps with them just simply getting them used to line driving. In a couple weeks we will probably be hauling some firewood in the sleigh and maybe spreading some manure or skidding small logs. Some of them sweat a little yes but that is a good thing for an honest worker human or animal. Did there soft muscles feel funny? Maybe but not sore. We had another good day yesterday driving I think 9 youngsters. We drove all the ones from last week plus a couple beginners. All but one were very soft mouthed and hardly tightened the lines but drove pretty evenly with the other horse. Making great progress so we might have a load on sale day!

[Carl Russell]

I have attached some photos from Donn’s thread of working with Connie. I think they are very important as an example of what is working behind the scenes when training horses to work.

In every picture Donn is working on different aspects of Connie’s early training, bridle, collar, skidding logs, driving. These are all of the individual steps that so many people want to know how to do.

What I see is a very relaxed Donn, presenting himself in a comforting way to his horse. The two animals are sharing the same posture in practically every picture, especially the 3 I attached.

The reason I think this is important is that my opinion is that it doesn’t matter how long the horse stands there with the collar on, if you haven’t secured an understanding with the animal.

I don’t know what the first encounter was between these two, but it is obvious to me that as soon as Donn saw the desired posture from Connie, he rewarded her with a similar posture of his own. In one photo of him driving the horse, you can see him intent on the horse, as if he were holding her in this attitude, while at the same time letting her do what she’s doing. She knows he is intent on her, and he had made it clear through body language that he is pleased with what she is doing.

The reason I point this out is because it relates to my earlier posts about having continual communication as a basis for the working relationship, not conditional exposure. The smoothness of Donn’s progress has less to do with the particulars of the steps he’s taken than it does with the fact that these steps reinforce the communication that he started to develop when he first encountered the horse.

In an earlier post J-L pointed out that he went through basically exactly the same steps, over a 2 day period with a mule that he needed to work, before putting her on the sled. For some that seems short, IF you think time has anything to do with it. But for J-L it was all he needed to know that he and the mule were ready to move on to lessons she would only be able to learn in the working setting.

This is what I learned from my mentors. When I asked about specifics training techniques, they rarely answered with straight answers, because they knew that I would either figure it out, or I wouldn’t. Their answers were either “If you want to log with horses, then buy a horse and go logging”, or “I’m not going to hold your hand”. At the time, I was not appreciative, but they always let me spend time with them, and it was then that I could see the way the focused on their horses, the postures they struck when they wanted something, or when they got what they wanted.

These are not easy things to learn in a book, and many people are completely unaware of how their body language is affecting their success, or failure. I thought that by pointing this out here, it might give some others a little more insight into the subtleties of “Training them old school”.

Carl

[Donn Hewes]

Thanks Carl, It is good to have some one pull out some of those pictures and point out something I have been reaching for. Call it training, but really it is two of us establishing a relationship. Doesn’t matter which tools we use, so much as that we understand each other. Green or broke, that is the first thing you do with a new animal.

[Carl Russell]

I gave attached 3 photos of my mare that I am working now. these pictures were taken in the fall of 2007, which was about a year after I started working her. Although they don’t tell the whole story, they show some of the same communication that I pointed out in Donn’s pics.

I trained this horse to work by hitching her with an older mare. I spent time handling her before, leading, harnessing, doing a couple of single driving exercises, but most of her experience has been in the execution of working tasks.

She has her moments, as do I, but I think you can see that that training has not left her a behavioral mess.

Carl

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