turning pasture over to veg

[Tim Harrigan]

Anthony: Good comments. My understanding is the choice of extractants is mostly regional. In Michigan they use the Bray P-1, out in MN they prefer the Mehlich test because the soils tend to be more alkaline, I think the Olson test is fairly common in OH and the Morgan (weak acid) tests are more common in the NE states and is commonly used at Cornell. Recommendations are calibrated to the test method. My comment had to do with a lack of agreement regarding what are the desireable levels to maintain. For instance, if MSU recommends a soil test level of 30 lb/ac Bray P-1 it is not uncommon to see soil tests of 60 or 80 lb/ac come back with a recommended P application that will continue to build the soil test P. It seems like more than soil chemistry is involved there.

[dominiquer60]

“Erika, I do not sense the same issues you mentioned from our university soil lab. Actually, their recommendations are modest compared to some I have seen from other places. The assessment should not change much from lab to lab, soil testing methods are pretty well standardized. Where folks part ways is on the recommendations based on the soil tests. So you need to be a little careful when someone is both testing your soil and selling you something (fertilizer, amendments, management, etc.) based on the soil tests.”

By poor recommendations I mean, they have little value to me because of the way that we farm with low inputs and 40 crops on very few acres. The are too vague and I don’t find them terribly useful. I have attended two years at one of these land grants, and although they are not directly trying to sell me anything, they do take a lot of money from some rather large corps. Then they teach methods that encourage the use of products that can be obtained from these large corps (BST, round-up, GMO’s, etc.) I gave them them too much of my money already to learn how not to farm, I would rather not support their soil lab too. So really, it is a personal thing against the universities.

I really like my current lab and certified crop consultant, we pay more but we get custom fit recommendations and a list of local/regional resources where we can find the amendments that we need. The university does not join us for a cup of coffee at our house and leave us with a sense of knowing where we need to go from here. I am not trying to say that we thrive on hand holding, I just like a more old fashion way of doing business with someone familiar with our needs and land.

“(clover, I’d probably go with crimson to get it to die back. What were you thinking, Erika?) and an annual small grain (oats, again to die back in the winter.) It seemed that Erika was plowing in the spring as the clover was still living.”

I want the clover to live for the next few years or more. What I am doing is establishing a cover crop in the harvest lanes and headlands. This provides a place for beneficials, a nice sod lane, and small areas to graze as long as the crops on the other side of the electric net fence are not too tempting. It is also nice because it will provide a little N and organic matter when you till it under. When we are first establishing the field, the sections that we don’t need to till yet have a nice cover crop on them until we get to those sections for late crops or the next year. Things that I have learned about red clover: If you have a thrip problem, don’t mow the clover around the crop, the thrips will only get worse. If you let the clover go to seed it will rejuvenate the stand, red clover is not well know for longevity so I let it go to seed once every year or so.

This is just my two cents,

Erika

[Robert MoonShadow]

Erika – I’d love to see photos & read more of your style(s) of farming! Very similar to what I’m working towards.
Many paths point towards the Nordells…including many references to them in the ATTRA publications. {http://www.attra.ncat.org I think.}

If I get this land I’m trying for, I’ll be trying two approaches; similar to what Erika says, and also, a couple of pigs in a restricted area (‘intesive management’) to let them root and fertilize, with frequent movement of their portable pen/fencing. From what I’ve studied, it seems that they’ll really do a number on weeds & insect larvae, while “tilling” the soil up to a foot deep. I think care would need to be taken to avoid any chance of runoff into any nearby watershed or stream, of course.
And the prospect of a freezer full of pastured pork is an added bonus.
My donkeys seem to vote for the pigs doing the work instead of them pulling the plow, etc., too. 😉

[dominiquer60]

Thank you Robert, I don’t really have a style yet, but I know what I like from my 8 years on other peoples farms, I’m just getting started really. Hogs work great for tillage, as long as you move them in time, the ground can really compact under those little hooves quicker than you would think.

[near horse]

Back to John’s question – I think that if you have any grazers available, graze it pretty intensely – just really beat it down hard before you till. Then, as others have mentioned, keep after the harrowing, especially if you’ve got quack grass. Finally, pick a cover crop (if that’s your route) that has very rapid and vigorous establishment (some ryes and some winter peas fit this bill) – want to get ahead of the weeds. Red clover is a biennial and doesn’t really fill in here during the first season although it’s pretty good in year 2.

How many folks here get a cash or eating crop during the first season after breaking out of sod? Just wondering.

I know you definitely have more precip than we do in West US and that might help alleviate some of the establishment patterns I mentioned.

[jac]

The area we’re going to use has had a heavy layer of horse manure during the winter as it was the toilet area, the grass is very short and we harrowed it once. After watching the short video of Eric and Anne Nordells operation Im begining to think I might just harrow it hard with the heavy harrows and cover crop for the 1st year ??? I find it hard to loose the “must plow” mindset as cover croping is unheard of in this area. Any thoughts on the heavy rain fall we have. Is that likely to be an issue if we dont plow or is it a benefit ?
John

[mitchmaine]

geoff, we plant oats first year for horses. they grow easy, don’t mind weeds. everything goes through combine and straw/weeds are seed free for bedding. then, spelt over winter for next season crop or a cover for the winter. have tried and do fall plow but can’t get a cover up on in time to help erosion, but fall plowing is great for breaking up sod, so six of one…
john, don’t know how much rain you get, but i think you can get cover on with just your disc. seems to me sometime you will have to deal with your sod? weeds are tough, especially when you feed ’em. send lots of photos and text.
an aside. coming to england shortly to visit wife’s family. devon/cornwall. any horse farmers that way? computer is not helping me with this. any help would be appreciated. mitch

[Robert MoonShadow]

Geoff – Using the landlord’s old Ford Ferguson tractor & the 3-point disc on the old mule pasture, I got a complete garden of produce in the first year…but it’s a very sandy soil under the old turf, as well as I had a heck of a battle with the weeds = especially since I was gone a lot, building trails. We also have adjudicated water rights to the Salmon River for irrigation (way more than the 3 acres he owns could ever use). So, it can be done the first year, but it’s a fight.

[dominiquer60]

We turned over 1.7A of old hay field last year. Quack grass and dock were the worst, but once sod broke down it was doable. Cultivating with the quack was tough, we had to irrigate in May during a dry spell, we have a crude system that involves a old fire truck. On one .33A section we double cropped greens and by fall the soil was beautiful to work. It was not ideal, but our first year working together was his most successful yet, thanks to this new ground and a couple extra hands. We hope to give some of the old fields a rest with cover crops, and ideally we will have permission to crop the other 3A half of the flat, then we can really get into the cover crops and more proper rotations.

[near horse]

The reason I ask about the first year production is that, if I’m not mistaken, the breakdown of the sod uses or ties up N in the soil – remember the C:N ratio stuff needed to make compost – same idea. That could leave you short of N for your crops (unless you take that into account before you plant and provide enough for growth). Anyway – the proof is in your garden(s) – if it worked out then it worked!

How do you use the old fire truck for irrigation (I thought I was the only one who’d thought of that!)? There are some pretty decent old firetrucks to be had cheap. Nobody takes care of their vehicle like the FD!

[dominiquer60]

It’s just a retired 196?ish 1,500 gallon fire truck that they bought from their department. It’s old but fires up every time, actually it was sold only because it was so old. All we do is fill from the creek that has clean head waters and put the nozzle on the gentlest setting and let her go. We can give a .3 A section a modest drink. We are working on setting up wobble lines for when we need them, but when you don’t have all day to figure that out, the firetruck works great.

The garden grew, but the parts that received dehydrated poultry manure grew better. We plan on using a lovely 2 year old stockpile of rotted manure on that piece as soon as we can clean it up.

Erika

[Robert MoonShadow]

Based on some of my research notes, I wonder if the first year, just plowing a strip through the sod and transplanting starts would work? It would give the plants a head start on the weeds, and the sod would be a natural groundcover/walkway. My notes cover interseeding through rye/clover in a “no-till” type of situation, after rolling down the cover crop to kill it, so if the sod was kept mowed…
Also, I’ve got a notation about the origianal settlers to some places out West, here, having done so (especially on the Palouse & Camas Prairies), as they needed to get some crop in after getting here in early summer, to replenish their food supply before winter. Sod worms, grubs, etc. might be a concern, but the offset would be erosion wouldn’t be a worry; a drip line would probably be appropriate.
About the water truck – wish I had one!! It’s not easy to pump from the Salmon River, here, until it crests in late June/early July, so I haul water in my 55-gallon drum (same one I use to haul my household water) and park the truck uphill from the field & use garden & soaker hoses. (I intend to buy drip line when the money stats flowing again).

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