very small scale forest work

[jen judkins]

I thought you loggers were getting entirely too prickly, so here is some fluff.

I’m managing a couple of acres of woods. I hesitate to call it a forest, given its size but it is connected to a much larger parcel of forest, probably hundreds of acres. My goals have nothing to do with money, or production of fuel, but are related more to conserving the natural state of the forest. I’d like to be able to walk through these woods unencumbered by the brush, namely one invasive buckthorn species. So there are two goals….first to irradicate the invasive species (it is on the NH list, I checked), if that is possible and second to apply some forestry to restore what is left (that part will likely take some training and probably some help down the road).

My plan, so far invloves some goats, who seem to love the buckthorn leaves. They eat what they can reach, then I go in with a lopper or chainsaw and cut down alittle at a time for them to finish off. I then move them onto another section. I admit that this is a slow process but currently it fits into my schedule to do small bits at a time. My horses have taught me many things, but mainly they have taught me to ‘love the process’, lol.

So my question involves what to do with the saplings and small trees I am taking down. Instinct says to burn them due to their invasive nature, but I realize that their fruit on the ground is how they propagate (so I’ll likely be doing this for awhile). I wonder if I should invest in a chipper and leave the wood on the forest floor as mulch. Are there any other options? Is one better, ecologically than the other. I have to laugh…I was a chemistry star in college…and I admit that was a long time ago….but I’m struggling with the carbon cycle as it pertains to the forest. It seems to me that burning wood is as wasteful (ecologically) as fuel…maybe someone can refresh my burned out memory. Thanks. Jennifer.

[TaylorJohnson]

Jenifer,
That buck thorn is a mess, I worked a wood lot with a lot of that in it. My job was to pull it out by the roots and then pile it in a field. I would hook my team up high on the buck thorn and then pull it almost out of the ground ( the bigger ones I am talking , roots half in half out of the ground. ) then I would re hook it close to the ground take a little different angle with the team and pop them the rest of the way out of the ground. I would skid 4 or 5 in a pile put a rapper chain around them and skid them out of the wood lot to the field. I do not know if they chipped them or burned them. Taylor Johnson

[Gabe Ayers]

Jennifer,

I am not sure how you could come up with a more prickly subject than Buckthorns. I am not exactly sure what species that is, but I suspect it is what we call whitethorn or wild quince, down here. They have long thorns and are very aggressive when growing in the understory. We do quite a bit of timber stand improvement as part of our work of restorative forestry and cut many of these alien invasive shrubs.

I admit that I am not a botanist and in fact most of my species identification is economically informed. In other words if we can make any money from a species we can identify it or if it stops us from making money from our attempts of man to age the forest we usually know what it is.

Many woody botanical species in the central Appalachians are not successful regenerating after simply cutting low because of the intense white tail deer browsing. We have so many deer that hardly anything that sprouts from cutting gets by without serious browsing in this area. Of course this could be a good time to bring up how good venison is for tacos and spaghetti.

We also are strickly organic in principle and practice, but there are exceptions. We have many invasive botanicals in Virginia. Some are so aggressive (like Alanthus) that we use some spot applications of herbicide on the stumps of these when they are cut out of the forest. We use a dishwashing liquid container and just apply it to the cut stub.

We are currently working with a landowner that has made it a mission to eradicate Alanthus by treating the smaller ones with a machete and spray bottle so they don’t sprout back from the stumps. He puts little cuts in the bark and sprays it with the herbicide in the little cuts. It is a shame that we have gotten our natural ecosystem so invaded, but we have and will have to continue to address it in order to return the forest to a natural population of native vegetation.

I really don’t have any experience with running goats in the woods, but there is much work going on all over the country using grazing and browsing animals to combat these plants.

This probably isn’t much help. But the whitethorns here have big prickly thorns that are dangerous and surely displace the regeneration of the forest in native species. I once had a mare that lost an eye to one of these thorns, so I don’t like them and cut them everywhere we see them, just as a matter of course in practicing timber stand improvement while harvesting worst first dominants.

Maybe someone else will have more information, experience, knowledge and recommendations.

[jen judkins]

Well, contrary to their name, Jason, these trees have no thorns…and I am for sure counting my blessings now, as I cannot imagine the horror of an invasive species yielding weapons! Thanks for the perspective! Jennifer.

[jen judkins]

@TaylorJohnson 2734 wrote:

Jenifer,
That buck thorn is a mess, I worked a wood lot with a lot of that in it. My job was to pull it out by the roots and then pile it in a field. I would hook my team up high on the buck thorn and then pull it almost out of the ground ( the bigger ones I am talking , roots half in half out of the ground. ) then I would re hook it close to the ground take a little different angle with the team and pop them the rest of the way out of the ground. I would skid 4 or 5 in a pile put a rapper chain around them and skid them out of the wood lot to the field. I do not know if they chipped them or burned them. Taylor Johnson

Taylor, That sounds alot more final to me than simply chopping them down to the ground, though my Belgian is not ready for that work yet. But sounds like he could be for next year. Doesn’t sound like you needed a logging arch. Can you explain the ‘rapper chain’? Thanks. Jennifer.

[TaylorJohnson]

Jenifer,
Time will tell if it is final or not but I sure think t will be because in this gated community there are many , many white tailed deer. I think that what we pulled will come back to some extent but when they do I hope the deer will do the part. The chain was just a regular skidding chain with slip hooks on each end. I would hook it up high and then put a twist on it partly to keep the chain from slipping but it also seemed to help twist the tree from the ground especially when hooked near the stump.
I have use my team to do a lot of this type of work . I have pulled every thing from scrub oak to soft maple wile building trail for people. It works very good and after you skid some logs down the trail the divots in the ground fill right in and it levels right out. I even use the team to pull shrubs out of a garden next to a house. There were a bunch of under ground irrigation pipes and a sprinkler system to work around so it would have been hard to get a tractor into them. I had to flag the sprinklers so I could avoid them . Most of this took place in an area were the cheaper house ran about 1.5 million ( all Dr.s and Med pros from the Mayo clinic in Rodchester MN. Taylor Johnson

[jen judkins]

Believe me, Bret…the last thing I want to do is destroy the habitat for the critters and the forest as a whole. Truly my only initial goal is to remove the invasive species. It has really taken over the forest here. I probably have no hope in hell of irradicating it as it is everywhere in my neck of the woods. But the truth is….it doesn’t belong in this forest, in this state, in this region. The state of growth I find these plants in, is technically natural, but it isn’t native. Perhaps the buckthorn will replace the Maples in New Hampshire someday and we can figure out how to make syrup out of its bitter berries. Jennifer.

[Carl Russell]

jenjudkins;2732 wrote:

……I’m managing a couple of acres of woods. I hesitate to call it a forest, given its size but it is connected to a much larger parcel of forest, probably hundreds of acres. My goals have nothing to do with money, or production of fuel, but are related more to conserving the natural state of the forest. I’d like to be able to walk through these woods unencumbered by the brush, namely one invasive buckthorn species. So there are two goals….first to irradicate the invasive species (it is on the NH list, I checked), if that is possible and second to apply some forestry to restore what is left (that part will likely take some training and probably some help down the road).

My plan, so far invloves some goats, who seem to love the buckthorn leaves. ……

Jenn this really looks like one of the most conflicted statements that I have ever read. Natural state=goats?

The “forest” is not a plot of land, it is an ecological state. There is no native forest. This is an entirely human concept. Natural states are always in transition. All species are invasive in nature, at one point or another. The solution to managing forests “naturally” is not to wage war against the present state, but to limit impact on the process, so that site can reach it’s most vital condition, naturally.

The “invasives” that people are so upset about are just taking advantage of weaknesses in the condition of our ecosystem after generations of over-use. There is no way that buckthorn, or any other species is going to out compete sugar maples that are allowed to grow in a naturally high stocking. At some point in a natural forest you will either have to walk encumbered by underbrush, or dead-fall.

Try entering those woods with an open heart to all the species represented there, and see whether that feels better than the feeling of doing battle. I believe strongly that the present is full of truth. Judging the current state based on a picture of the past, or an image of a possible future, are distracting efforts.

The natural response to disturbance is rapid regrowth of opportunistic organisms. Often their work is necessary to set up the future condition successfully. The only time I cut invasives is when they are in direct competition with crop trees, otherwise they are welcome components.

Don’t blame the buckthorn for human error. Pay attention to it, and try to understand it for what it is.

Carl

[jen judkins]

Carl, Your rebuke is well recieved (reads ‘got me thinking’ about my approach)but perplexing. Am I to understand that the effort I expend to irradicate a known non-native, invasive species from my ‘forest’ is a waste of effort and is in fact a violation of ecology. Well, I am relieved, for sure, as I have alot of other things to do!

I have noticed, for what its worth, there is a lack of similar invasives in Vermont, compared to my New Hampshire (at least those known to my feeble mind). Care to elaborate why (I’m clueless)? Jennifer.

[jen judkins]

Bret, I don’t have any first hand images to show (being night and all), but I did do a google search and came up with a photo as well as a workshop that I think I will attend. So thanks for asking, I mighty have missed the workshop otherwise. Jennifer.

http://extension.unh.edu/Forestry/Docs/InvasiveWorkshop.pdf

[Carl Russell]

Jenn,
It is my own (possibly isolated) opinion that the concept of invasive non-native species is entirely human, and is derived from a state of denial about #1.the constant ecological transition around us that we try to lock into categorized status because of our desire for consistency, #2. the negative impact that we have had on our ecosystem that has created the weakness that is being capitalized on by these species that are new to our area.

There are many “invasive” species in VT. There is a huge militant effort to eradicate these intruders.

My own personal growth, has lead me to understand that as a human interacting with, and dependent on, my ecological surroundings, that like the healing of a wound on my own body, there are processes inherent in the system, that may take longer, or do things that I don’t understand, but the ultimate result will only present itself through a patient acceptance of the process.

I find it very uncomfortable to assign negative values to any organisms, regardless of how they came to be components of the present situation. In my mind humans tend to waste a lot of time and energy creating a hierarchy of individual value, and then use it to motivate their efforts to establish this perceived reality.

There are no weeds. (read no retards, no diseases, no filth, no kings!!!)

See you this weekend, Carl

[Carl Russell]

I think I intended to say that i find it uncomfortable to assign negative value. In other words, when making decisions about land use, and resource management, I recognize the potential to increased the value for a particular crop, or land-use, or individual “crop tree”, as it pertains to my objective, bearing in mind that it is MY objective. That being said I evaluate obstacles and competitors in relation to that chosen use, or individual, and determine what my approach will be. I do not have a set of biases against particular species, or uses, which is the negative evaluation that I was referring to.

I have no problem with some one trying to eliminate buckthorn, for example, I just think that it should be clear, that it is to satisfy a human objective, and shouldn’t be justified as an attempt to regain a natural species composition.

There are places where I eliminate all sorts of plants, animals, and other organisms, in the name of my objectives. Some might argue, that because I am a part of the natural world, then that is natural, but I think being human allows me to take responsibility for my actions, and being only a small participant , I feel that I should keep my impact small too.

Carl

[jen judkins]

Who would have thought my post about Buckthorns and Goats would be so thought provoking? Honestly, I am thrilled!

To be truthful, with myself, yes indeed, the removal of Buckthorn serves my goals as a land owner. I have thought of myself as being a steward of this land and have always tried hard to find ways to get things done with the ecology of my micro-environment close to heart. I don’t use herbicides or pesticides, hell, I don’t even worm my horses. I tread softly where ever I can, employing the use of my tractor sparingly. I manage manure by hand. I look for renewable resources and ways to be self sufficient. It means more work for me personally but it is rewarding to sit on the deck and watch the myiad of insects, most beneficial, birds and bats congregating on my property. I share my woods with Bears, Moose, deer and other less visible creatures. All are welcome! I guess what I am saying is that as a newbie farmer and forester, there is sooo much to learn and understand. So much to experience, first hand, that it could take decades for me to come close to what is ecologically natural. How many of us here actually know what that looks like? I admit my vision of a forest developed from riding through thousands of miles of wooded trail. Seeing that there was a trail, I suppose by definitiion, it is not in a natural state, so there you go. My vision is flawed. That’s OK with me. If I compare myself to 100 other farmers with the same acreage, I’m doing things mostly right. If 50% of small acreage landowners had the same passion I have for preserving the natural ecology in their front yards, we would live in a much nicer world.

BTW, Carl, placing positive value on one tree automatically places others in a less favorable position. That might not seem like placing negative value, but to me its just semantics. We all value some things over others. I bet your kids mean more to you than your neighbors kids. That said, your point about my negativity towards the buckthorn is well taken. I walked through my forest today with a new attitude. (Oh, Jason, I believe I ran into one of your thorny tree cousins, yikes, that sucker reached out and bit me hard. Luckily (or not) its not thriving in my area and looks to be dying, so it is now in my buckthorn pile.) The Buckthorn are, after some solid thought, a renewable resource…the goats do love them afterall. I’ve pledged to make a new plan…one that works with the current forest, not the one I envision. I’m sure a compromise can be made. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences, everyone. Jennifer.

[Carl Russell]

I don’t mean to bat this around so much, but actually the distinction is more than semantic. To see value in something is much different than assuming a negative value in something else. Eliminating a competitor, regardless of species, is much different than ear-marking one species as a detractor.

I have learned that the act of harvest, or elimination, has much different impact on the practitioner when the choice is based on the positive appraisal of potential in a choice, as apposed to the approach that is motivated by an effort to eradicate. One is an act of acceptance, one is an act of intolerance.

I’m glad your getting so much reward from your work, Carl

[lowbrowscruffy]

I had an autistic lad that spent months working in my bush making it “park-like”. It helped his state of mind. He hated buck-thorn and cut-off thousands….and in five years we had tens of thousands. Each stump sprouted 10. Some places where he cleared are almost not passable now,,ten years later. Later, I gave him a spritzer bottle of “round-up” and he sprayed the stumps immediately after cutting and it controlled the suckering and appeared to kill the root. I would never let goats into my bush….they are hard on everything. If you want the buck-thorn gone and nothing else injured I would recommend you inject the larger stems with Round-up with pole that shoves a cap of round up (“vision”) into the stem. I can’t remember the name of the unit. (We used them for thinning jack pine.) Or a hypo-hatchet. It kills the stem and root for good. No suckering or regrowth. I don’t know if you can eradicate it. You would still have the dead stem left. You would want to get some other more desirable species of tree flourishing in the openings….oh but that another thread……

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