Vote on skid carts

[Scott G]

I am going to take the plunge in the near future and go from solely ground skidding to using a cart; especially for the long haul back to the landing with pre-bunched, small diameter stems.

The terrain here doesn’t allow for much use of a cart but where it does it sure would be handy.

I am interested in purchasing, not fabricating, a cart. Other than my lack of ability to glue steel, in my mind, it will be supporting the limited few who make money manufacturing horse/mule logging equipment.

I’ve pretty much narrowed down my choices to Jim (Farmer) Brown’s or David Miller’s (Forest Mfg). That said, if someone has, in their opinion, a better option I am open to the idea.

Mandatory items, choker quick release and the ability to use either a pole or shafts.

Curious of those in the know, of the two carts mentioned, which they prefer. Comments on pros & cons appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[TaylorJohnson]

Scott , This is my cart here, a man in MN made it . It is a good cart and has good lift on it . I have another friend in southern MN that has a Farmer Brown cart and if he could not get another one I dint think you could buy it from him. I have not used a forestry brand cart or even seen one used but they look like a good cart. They are a handy tool to have for sure and when you get one you will think back to so many days that you did not have one and start to sweat just thinking about all those extra steps and jumps over logs and stumps. I love mine and would not want to be with out it for sure , not now after I have been spoiled by it . I wish that I had pics of some of the drags I have brought out with mine I mean really big loads .
The man that made mine is Todd Eggler , he is a horse logger and a good fabricator . He is a Marine and is hard to get a hold of at times but when I talk to him I will get a number that I can post on line. Taylor Johnson

[Scott G]

Thanks Taylor,

I really like the height adjustment on the posts above the axles to adjust draft for different size animals.

Is your friend in Southern MN Tim Carroll? I saw a video of a cart he had that looked like Forest Mfg. If he has one of Jim Brown’s how does he like it? I can contact Tim if that is the case.

The biggest need I have for a cart is hauling pre-bunches back to the landing to get the stem count per turn up.

Thanks again.

[TaylorJohnson]

Ya Tim is my buddy with the Farmer Brown cart in S MN give him a call he can tell you all about it, he has pulled a lot of wood with it. That is how I used mine in the pine thinning this summer . I pulled drags together and bunched wood up to make bigger drags for my cart . It would haul a big load out with ease. Taylor Johnson

[Scott G]

Thanks Taylor I’ll give him a call.

Did you use a single, and rotate out, or a team for pre-bunching on your pine thinning job?

[Does’ Leap]

Scott:

I have a Forest cart and like it a lot. It is well manufactured and does a nice job lifting the log. The seat on it isn’t great as it lacks suspension or springs. It is a real lumbar cruncher and I rarely use it. I plan to replace the seat soon. I have also made some modifications like a saw holder (a must, I think they now sell this) and a large box to hold chains, chaps, etc. As I become more comfortable with it, I am using it in situations where I never thought I could get a cart. If I can’t get the cart in, I’ll take a single horse unless it is a really big load. In summary, I highly recommend getting a cart and the Forest is a good choice, although I haven’t used other carts.

Good luck and keep us posted.

George

[TaylorJohnson]

Most of the time a single. A lot of the time I just fell the trees and bucked them ( bucking had more to do with my plan that the felling as far as my skidding went ) so I could hook a drag and skid it to another tree , stop the team and back the cart up unhook the drag hook some more pull it up hook the hole load and go. Sometimes I would pull up to a drag , let some slack out on the load that I had on the cart, pull over the skid I wanted to hook , hook both drags , pull them ahead , back the team up, hook the slack drag tight pull ahead to even them , set them both and go. (In the time it took me to write this down I would have already been on the landing LOL. I am a better logger than typer for sure. )
When I fell a tree putting it in the right spot for the forest is the most important thing. The next thing I do is plan my skid. In the pine in the pics I would use my tape measure out 2 8′ mark the bark on the first one make my cut on the 2nd one. this pine was 6 to 8 sticks ( most any way ) so I would measure out the rest of the sticks wile I was limbing then fell another tree. After I had 2 fell , limbed and marked I would decide were to buck the wood so that I could easily put a skid together trying to keep every thing in at least 16′ lengths. Most of the time bunching the smaller logs up to the first cut letting the but cut log be hooked by its self. In this way in a row cut you can put big skids together with out a lot of trouble doing the hooking as I described up top.
Looking back at what I have typed I wonder if it will make any sense to anyone or not . But any way doing it like this allows you to bunch skids and not have to unhook the team from the cart , it sounds slow but it is not . I have had Lyme’s disease most of the summer and was still able to get out an av of about 3 cords and some days 4 or more in this little stuff. That is an average , some days all I did was cut , some days I just skidded wood. These are full work days not short days , there were some days I got very little out but weeks when I could work a full week with out an interruption I would av this no problem.
Scott you will love your cart , I mean they are handy to have for sure. Taylor Johnson

[TaylorJohnson]

I really like the seat on my cart It is a Pioneer seat I believe but Tim likes his better because he can flip it up and it is out of the way when he stands. Mine I would say is more comfortable and has more adjustment on it plus a spring. Todd rigged his up with an air bag and it is pretty cool and I am sure it rides nice. I rough ground I am standing most of the time any way but a good ride is important for sure. I can not imagine not having any suspension in the seat , you would get tough or die I guess LOL . Taylor Johnson

[Scott G]

Forest Mfg’s arch lists for about half of what Jim Brown’s does ($1,100 vs $2,000). Anybody have any idea if there is that big of a difference in quality, durability, or components?

[Joshua Kingsley]

At one time I was talking to Jim about a cart and he was waiting on a load from Forest Mfg. I don’t know if that is still the case though if it is you are either buying from the source or a retailer. This was several years ago so I am not sure what the scoop is now… Just some food for thought.
Josh

[Bumpus]

.
If you can not find one already made maybe you can use ( print ) these plans of to get someone to make one for you in your area.

This arch works out pretty good, and it saves a lot of walking on you, and make it easier on the team or singles.

http://www.healingharvestforestfoundation.org/docs/Log_Arch_Plans.pdf

bumpus
.

[Gabe Ayers]

Jimmy is now making his own arches. His quick release is stouter than the Forest MFG. motel.

The one Taylor has is a copy of Jimmy Browns that he consigned to Tim several years ago, after Tim had a rather unprofessional model at HPD demonstrating. There were some comments by the Europeans that went something to the effect of the U.S. being 30 years behind them in logging and 30 years ahead in farming with animal power. I don’t believe that, but that is what they observed that year at HPD.

Jimmy consigned an arch to us at SDAD and we brought it home in case anyone in the south wanted one. It has eight lug spindles and of course the draw bar attachment so you can use it as a fore cart if you don’t mind being up that high when working. In the summer it is a benefit to be above the heat coming off the team in a hay field. We noticed in the photo of Taylor’s has has a Reece hitch welded to the draw bar, which is a modification of Jimmy’s arch. Jimmy’s has a bolt on draw bar attachment.

I am not fond of the spring loaded pioneer pan seat when working in rough ground, seems likely to launch a fellow, but one can stand when in rough ground and only set down when the skid trail gets smooth. If you are going to move big wood this is a stout device. I would think they can be adapted to work with shafts or pole.

Now that all that hear say is written – I have to say that the Fisher arch is also a very serviceable device. It has a much lower center of gravity and no moving parts. The JB arch is adjustable, so that helps that characteristic. The Fisher arch also has a much simpler cantilever forward (14 degrees), but is not adjustable other than putting different height tires on it. The Fisher arch can be fitted with any seat. We use the bus seat because they are cheaper and allow a student to ride beside the operator for instruction. The Fisher arch is also just an arch and not a fore cart. The lack of a draw bar allows the log to be placed closer to the team than with the JB arch. If you do ride the arch you will find that climbing on the higher arch is harder than the lower arch. The placement of the peavy on the JB arch is better in that the double tree can move backward without hitting the peavy/cant hook placement on the Fisher arch.

The guard on the front of the JB arch is also a matter of personal preference. It surely would help keep a fellow on the arch in rough going. They both will turn over if hooked very far from the log, so don’t get on until your log is situated with the choker straight up to the slot bar – for the skid to the landing. When the arch turns over, you will have to turn it back with human power, so that is a consideration – and they will turn over. Riding the arch is a real benefit because half the time you are working you are empty and walking back into the woods is harder than riding.

I would suggest calling Jimmy and horse trading with him. He may need a dealer in Colorado and you might work out a deal with him. David Miller at Forest Mfg. may be in the same position.

Jimmy Brown – 585-567-8158
David Miller – 814-653-9695

The Fisher arch blueprints in 3D w/ materials list is free on our web site. Any local welding shop could make one, but you will still need, a seat, double tree and breast yoke at about 48″ widths.

This is an interesting discussion compared to thirty years ago when we decided to get serious about horse logging. There were no proven arches around to debate about, so when we found Charlie Fisher it was a welcome discovery to make the work easier, safer, lower impact on forest soil and less resistance on the horses. Then there is the matter of keeping the logs cleaner if you happen to be doing on site value added processing. Since the arch holds the logs in one position there is only one dirty side to the log, which one can work with when sawing without a debarker.

The Les Barden arch is a fine tool too, it has helped feed Carl and Lisa’s young’ uns for a while now.

Glad you are getting an arch, you will enjoy it.

You may notice in the attached photo that sometimes the Biological Woodsmen don’t even have a seat on the Fisher arch, but those fellows are usually in their twenties and athletes.

[Carl Russell]

So as not to have to reiterate myself I will attach links to other similar discussions.

Log Arch
http://www.draftanimalpower.com/showthread.php?t=1597

Part-time logging
http://www.draftanimalpower.com/showthread.php?t=1452

Logging Arches
http://www.draftanimalpower.com/showthread.php?t=273

I will say that there are now blue prints for the Barden Cart. I don’t have them yet, but will have them scanned as soon as I do.

My only other reiteration is that even though the Barden Cart looks small and light, which it is, this is by no means a limiting factor. I move large hitches and large logs, and the design addresses features that do limit (at least in my mind) the other heavier and taller models.

You may not want to build a cart, but my opinion is that you will have a much more functional cart in the long run if you seriously consider the Barden design.

Carl

[Scott G]

Thanks everyone.

I was not trying to rehash an old topic. There are numerous threads/discussions out there on different cart designs & merits.

My take/intent is a little different in that I want to and strongly believe in supporting those that are making a go of it at supplying our niche and culture.

I could certainly take a set of plans, say of Barden’s or Fishers’ cart and have my neighbor, who is an incredible fabricator/welder, make one.

My thought is that if we want to build & expand our pursuit of draft powered forestry, contributing business to those manufacturing that specialized equipment is a worthwhile expenditure.

[TaylorJohnson]

This is what I posted on another site about this cart being a copy .
Boys I don’t know were this is going but if I had the planes and blue prints , a ware house full of steel and a fully equipment shop I could not build or duplicate any thing.
Todd ( the man that built my cart ) from my understanding designed this cart him self and it is nice. I have never seen a Forestry brand cart in person but I have seen them in pics. I have a friend that has a Farmer brown cart down in southern MN and i have seen it and it is a dandy to but I have only seen it one day out of the last 2 or 3 years and that day it was about 26 bellow and I did not study it much . Like I said I could have pics , planes, steel, welder , all of that and could not duplicate a piece of equipment . I know when my buddy seen mine ( the one that owns the farmer brown cart ) and watched me use it he had opinion’s on what he liked and disliked compared to mine and I think mine is much heavier built than the forestry brand cart. They are a simple machine and most would have to be pretty close to the other just to work well as far as balance and what not goes. But I don’t know if some one is saying that I copied a forestry or a farmer brown cart but I can tell you I would have about as much chance of that as putting the moon in my pocket.
It is a long story about how I ended up making the trade , it started with fire wood for his mom and dad and ended with a diesel truck,, I got a cart and a gas power Air compressor so I am happy plus got to know a darn good man and made a good friend out of it . I am happy with the cart , the trade , and the buddy I have made. Taylor Johnson
Jason , I am not saying this is what you are saying I am just letting every one know how i got the cart. You would have to talk to the man that builds them to talk specs and details about the design. Tim did not like the way my evener hooks up on my cart but he did like the hight on mine , he said mine has a wider stance to, with the wide tires it is much wider. He did not like my seat compared to his cart he did like my carts balance and the floor . So like I said I do not know the details or specs but I know that I like my cart.
Before I cut my arm up bad I was talking to Farmer Brown about getting a cart from him, but after the injury the money was not there . If it were not for Todd being willing to trade with me I would not have this one. I would not steal form any one not even and idea. Because ford made a car does that mean Chevy stole there idea by making a car. The way I look at it Farmer Brown is like the Henry Ford of the horse logging community and if people are going to build something that works it will be close to his or one of the other types of carts out there. Mr. Brown made more since to me than a lot of people as far as putting out wood with horses. The longer I do this the more since he makes about some of the things he said and ideas he had. Down the line I will be doing it the way he does it . I think he is on the money with his operation, I might not do it exactly like him but it will be more like his than most . That might not be the right way to do it for every region but it will work for mine. So in a way I will be copying him but if you are doing things the right way people are going to do things like you . His method would not work well for Tim in his area or it might not work in some other areas of the country .
For most horse loggers it would be impossible to travel 10 or 12 hours to get a cart or any equipment for that matter. I know I could not, most people making a living with horses will have to buy equipment and supplies from the area they live in . Todd lives 2.5 hours from me and Mr. Brown lives in NY. If Mr. Brown lived 2 hours from me he would be sick of swapping with me by now and might give me a cart to leave him alone ( I am a fine trader of goods lol ) . When these markets come back and money is a little easier to come by I will be doing a little traveling and hope to meet some of you on this board and go to some of the events but right now all I do is work, work and a little more work ( well not right this minute like I said I am getting over a nasty case of Lyme’s )

If you look at walking plows , they are all pretty close in looks but are they all a copy of one another ? Same with regular fore carts. Just some thoughts on this hole thing. Taylor Johnson

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