Western NY Future Farmer

[dlskidmore]

Hello,

My name is Denise Skidmore. I grew up with a big garden and lots of forest to play in, but no real farming/logging experience. Enough friends/relatives are involved in Dairy for me to be vaguely familiar with the lifestyle differences between farming and other jobs. Hubby and I are hoping to buy some elbow room (we’ve looked at properties from 5-70 acres) in the next year or two.

I’m not much of an environmentalist, but I do believe in the principle of being a good steward, and I would like my piece of elbow room to be productive land, and I look forward to the idea of having a job where I could take (yet unconvinced) children to work and raise without the help of hired caregivers.

I’m interested in the possibility of raising grass-fed sheep and poultry, and having a small market garden. (Assuming we do end up with enough space, there are still many factors to settle out before firming up my business plan.)

I will likely have some need for plowing and/or putting up hay, and will need to have either a tractor or draft horses. (In my dream world I’ll move in next door to a farmer who already has all this glorious equipment and who will work for a share of the crop, but I can not count on such luck.)

Not having any experience with horses or tractors, I naturally lean towards the one that bears a stronger resemblance to my familiar car. My dog is frequently called a horse, but even a draft-trained Great Dane has very different biological needs and psychology than a real horse, as well as the harnessing and equipment for horses being very different than what I use with my dog. On the pro-horse side, I’ve read that Amish tend to make more money per acre, primarily because of lower equipment costs and a larger manure supply, and I already have one person asking if there will be stable room at my place, so it might behoove me to learn about horses anyway.

I have time to research before I make a decision, so I’m here to give draft horses a valid feasibility study instead of just making an uninformed decision to go with the more familiar motive force.

There is an Amish community within day trip distance from here, so I may find an opportunity to learn from them or to buy already mature and trained horses from them.

I prefer to research everything throughly before I do it. I do not want to just buy a horse and see how it goes. I’m not even ready to buy the land for the horse to live on yet, my research may affect what properties I will consider. I’m willing to devote a lot of time to learning, and hope to learn a lot here.

Is there any wisdom at all in a complete novice trying to use horses to get practical work done on a farm? What would you consider minimum horse experience to try this, and where would you recommend I get it? (No offense Farmer Brown, but even at the local rate, $450 a day is is only going to get me a taste of plowing on my budget.) I’ve checked out the local farm animal humane society, and they currently do not have any open volunteer positions. my Great Dane’s sports vet does work with horses, I may be able to trade labor for training there. As I have no real desire to ride, walking injured horses around, grooming, medicating, wrapping, etc may be better experience than I could get at a riding school.

Expect to see my first newbie questions in “Other Working Animals” and “Equipment” sections.

Denise Skidmore

[goodcompanion]

Hello Denise and welcome.

Hard to say how to advise you. I guess I would suggest to proceed as slowly as possible. The mode of traction is a relatively minor point in your whole endeavor, you have got a lot of steep learning curves ahead of you. Best learning around is on working, for-profit farms like the one you hope to start.

I would suggest an apprenticeship. A typical apprenticeship would probably entail putting your project on hold for the time you are doing it and working very hard for little or no pay. But in the right kind of situation it is a very cheap way to learn a lot of expensive lessons the easy way. Failing that, you might offer to work for free for whatever farmers in your area are doing the kind of work that interests you, in return for being able to learn and ask questions.

Having said that I do believe that the skills required to start up and run a small farm are learnable and that it can be done in conjunction with raising a family. But not the least bit easy. Invest as much time as you can getting real experience.

[dlskidmore]

The vegetative side (except for hay) is going to be a larger scale version of what I already have done. The kids were a very integral part of the vegetable raising process in my parent’s home, I helped Mom with her little plant sales and I have a little postage stamp version at my city home. I think I’m prepared mentally for that, need to work up physical preparation and knowledge of the larger scale equipment.

The livestock handling side is where I really need to pick up experience. I need to look into the feasibility of an apprenticeship. Right now my income is needed to make progress towards the land purchase, but might not be needed after the land purchase. I’m willing to leave the land fallow for a bit to ease into it correctly. (In my dream world I can rent out part of the land until I’m ready to work it, but I’m not counting on that in planning finances.) I’m downright planning to not fully utilize the land the first year even if I am fully mentally prepared. I will need time to work into it slowly on the physical side. I might start as small as 1/4 acre of veggies and 3 sheep the first year, keeping up my day job to pay for more fencing, equipment, and outbuildings for further expansion while gaining more hands on experience at the lower risk investment level. Going from desk worker to farmer is not done overnight on the day of the land transaction.

Like I said before, this is a feasibility study. I am not going to purchase a horse until I am confident that it will be happy, and healthy, in my hands. I’ve spent way too much time counseling people who bought dogs or sea critters without thinking it all through first to do that to a different animal I don’t know much about.

[mother katherine]

Denise,
If you are around dairy people, you might consider working cattle. When we first started moving toward draft power, I was thinking horse. When I went to my first class introducing the draft animals, I found oxen much more attractive for a variety of reasons, not least less expense to keep and equip.
If you can get hold of Drew Conroy’s book “Oxen: A Teamster’s Guide” published by Storey, that might set the juices working.
Bull calves can be real cheap, relatively easy to train and fertise as they go. They come real young(we brought ours home at a week old), so imprinting and dominance are not issues.
There are quite a few ox teamsters on this forum who are willing to teach.
oxnun

[Andy Carson]

Welcome Denise
I think you will find this forum to be a wonderful source of practical information. I would like to second Eriks suggestion of an apprenticeship. It would be very useful both the learn farming and animal techniques and to learn what appeals to you. If you don’t have time for one, I think it would be a good idea to visit some farms that you might be interested in emulating. Of course you will want to put your own twist on thier model, but these visits will give you an idea of what is possible and some idea of how to get there. If you are interested in a tractor powered farm, I would suggest going to visit one of these as well. Obviously, I lean towards animal power, but when planning a direction, I think it is important to look at all options. After you decide on a goal, try to come up with small incremental steps to help you get there. It will take several years, no matter which way you decide to go, so it might be helpful to set up smaller goals along the way so as not to get discouraged. Try to keep in mind that if you work with animals the learning itself is often fun and you might spend all day looking forward to your “learning” sessions. Personally, I have never been motivated by machines in the same way and your desire to go to work is an important consideration. If you decide to go with horses, I would recommend getting an older horse (or team) that knows its (thier) job well. I would still recommend a human mentor to help you get started, but experienced animals are safer and can teach you as well. If you have cattle experience (or even if you don’t) oxen seem like a good choice too. I think your choice of animal depends to a great extent on what captures your imagination and you enjoy working with.

[Carl Russell]

Welcome Denise,

My only feed-back is that beside the animal husbandry and working skills, starting out to build your way slowly into a farming enterprise can be hard financially. Adding to that the cost of purchase and maintenance of tractors can set the tone of the operation for a long time. If you have any sense that draft animals are what you want to use, then bring that objective up to the top of the priority list.

There is no doubt that learning the farming skills and strategies can be very similar on both types of operations, and those skills are also prerequisites to successful farming, but a lot of operations that are built around tractor use have a hard time making the transition to draft animals.

If you start out with drafts from the beginning the growth will be pretty slow, but you will be blessed with an operation that does not have to be modified, but you will also benefit from a personal investment in terms of improving skills that you just can’t get with tractors.

This does equate to some financial value as well, as you become your own primary resource for training, and application, and systems development. For the money draft animals are by far the most versatile source of motive power.

Research is good, and make sure that you make do with what you have. If it is more convenient to work with a local vet, than to head off to southern Ohio for a full fledged internship, then that is an excellent first step. You definitely need to see how you feel around animals.

Anyway you cut it, I would suggest that if you truly have an interest in draft animals, then it will work best if you put your weight behind that objective sooner than later. Many of us on this board have experience with family and community members who question such far fetched ideas. It can be hard to work through, but like so many other lifestyle choices, when you come clean with yourself and focus without apology on your true mission, miracles happen.

This may not be a factor in your case, but I just wanted to throw out the encouragement.

Good luck, Carl

[dlskidmore]

I don’t want to go into my full business plan here, but I’m not seeking for the farming operation to fully replace my previous income, or even go much further than subsistence. My husband will continue to bring in a moderate income, and I have another part time enterprise planned for the land. We’re planning to proceed cautiously, and not break the bank and bet our future on farming.

I am planning to about quadruple the subsistence activities my parents conducted, which they managed just on nights and weekends.

The more I look into tractors or large draft animals, the more it looks appealing to buy winter feed instead of putting up my own, and use a simple motorized rototiller for plowing. At least the first few years when things are small, that could be economical. As I expand I’ll have to consider more carefully what’s best for the operation and the family.

A larger pasture/haying/woodlot area would be useful to several of my goals, but if I’m not going to be able to manage it myself, I may have to scale back the land purchase to match the business plan. I’d like to keep all of the land at the agricultural tax rate.

[dlskidmore]

As for animal power being a goal, I would not put it that strongly. I see the benefits of animal power, and I’m not intrinsically opposed to the idea. I’m fascinated by miniature horses and sulky driving, although my Great Dane is the closest I’ve gotten to that. I’ve always disliked the idea of boarding a pet, so it’s never really been a possibility previously. I like horses, but know that I need much more training before it would be responsible to try to control the larger beasts. The horse’s safety and my own are at stake, never mind accomplishing any goal together.

I have an online friend who is currently converting her farm from tractor power to horse power. I will watch her transition with interest.

[Scott G]

I think you’re a natural for a draft powered forestry business…

“Skidmore Logging” … it’s a natural! 😀

Welcome!

[OldKat]

A couple of things come to mind in reading your post and the balance of this thread. Not sure how expensive land is in your area, Monroe County, NY if I remember where Rochester is located, but you might look into leasing at least some of the land you will need first to help knock down the upfront costs associated with taking on something of this scale. It would also give you the opportunity to get your system down pat before being saddled (no pun intended) with long term debt; unless of course you are in the position to purchase your land outright, which, if so … never mind the debt issue.

Relative to using part of your land to stable animals for others; that could be an extra income stream for you, one which we have considered ourselves in the past. Your situation may be different in New York State, but in our state the liability was so horrendous that we couldn’t afford the incremental insurance. This is in a state where there is a specific law exempting “equine practitioners” from liability. That turns out to mean that the people who would board with us could not sue us if they or their animal was injured or killed on our property, but virtually anyone in the general public could if they were injured or killed while on our property and were impacted in any way by our or other peoples horses. That is why we don’t allow visitors on our property when we are doing anything besides just feeding the horses. Insurance agents looked at our business plans and proposals and said “no thanks” when asked to provide a quote on liability insurance. Investigate this carefully before committing to anything.

Finally, I am not trying to pour cold water on your plans by saying the following. That said I want to be honest with you. You are proposing something that is very doable, and it almost directly mirrors our dreams. Yet, I don’t get the sense that you have a real passion for the “horse drawn” aspect of your dream / vision. That in my mind is a real red flag. I think you will complicate things greatly by introducing another aspect of the production process that you will have to master in order to succeed in your endeavor. If you had a lifetime of experience and deep love of horses or cattle, but not draft horses (or oxen) … then I would say yes go for it. If you didn’t have much experience with animals, but had “always dreamed” about working with them; then by all means get the experience and proceed. In your case, I would be very cautious before investing in animals and equipment before determining if you would even like working with them. One thing about a small tractor is if you don’t like the farming deal after all, you can get out from under your equipment fairly quickly and easily … probably without taking a financial bath. If you pursue draft animals and decide to bail out you will be faced with deciding the fate of a living, breathing being that did nothing wrong other than not being the answer to your traction needs. To me that is a fairly significant issue. Proceed cautiously (but do proceed), and good luck.

[dlskidmore]

@Scott G 18541 wrote:

I think you’re a natural for a draft powered forestry business…

Well there is a local apprenticeship opportunity in logging, if I can fit not working for cash into the budget that would be a good place to start.

[dlskidmore]

@OldKat 18543 wrote:

Not sure how expensive land is in your area, Monroe County, NY

We’re actually currently looking just beyond the borders of the county, to the southeast. My husband’s job is in the southeast corner of Monroe, and land gets much cheaper as you move out from the city. We’ve seen properties such as 40 acres for 7k listed, (although that was an extreme bargain, others we found were still affordable and would not be forced to take the extreme bargain if the terrain/drainage is all wrong) so I think we can get either empty land and a bare bones home built, or an old run-down farm for a reasonable housing price. Certainly less than folks around big cities pay for just a nice house. We have a phased building plan that would allow us to get a smaller up-front loan without giving up our long-term bigger home dreams.

We are bargain hunters, the home we’ve been living in for 7 years now we picked up for $14,000. We had it paid off in 4 years, and we jokingly call it our disposable house. Just about anything with working plumbing and electricity and not in our neighborhood would be a step up. We’re not planning on using the equity to buy the new place, but may be able to use it towards equipment/structures/fencing. (Although it probably will not cover all three.)

@OldKat 18543 wrote:

you might look into leasing at least some of the land you will need first

That would not be compatible with the slow start plan. If leasing I would need to ramp up operations to the point where I make up for the lease cost in the first year. A purchase allows me to invest capital, and have a chance of getting some of that capital back if I am a complete failure at this. The market has been more stable in Rochester than elsewhere, but is is a bit low right now, and prices are likely to go back up when the economy booms again. Delaying a purchase will inflate my later purchase price. The plan will depend on not biting off more than we can chew financially with existing finances. I can not put myself in a do-or-die position.

@OldKat 18543 wrote:

in our state the liability was so horrendous that we couldn’t afford the incremental insurance.

This is a very good point. I really need to get a lawyer or underwriter to look over my full business plan before we buy the land. I do intend to allow the public on my land, so I need to mitigate risk as much as I can.

@OldKat 18543 wrote:

Yet, I don’t get the sense that you have a real passion for the “horse drawn” aspect of your dream / vision.

Correct. I like animals in general, but I’m much more passionate about dogs than horses. I see the utility of the horse, the economy, and some intrinsic value, but would be perfectly happy using a tractor instead. I think it’s still worth continuing to research, but not include as a serious part of my plan. (Personality flaw, I want to know everything, I will be pleased as punch if I can gain a ton of book-level knowledge even if I never actually touch a horse. My saltwater aquarium articles generally get good reviews, but I haven’t a drop of saltwater in the house because I find the hobby way too expensive to do it right.)

@OldKat 18543 wrote:

In your case, I would be very cautious before investing in animals and equipment before determining if you would even like working with them.

I agree with your point when it comes to horses, but the sheep are rather integral to my plan. The sheep and chickens however are much more socially acceptable to eat if the plan goes south, and the dogs won’t care if I let the animals get tough and old before butchering.

[dlskidmore]

I’m slowly developing your inputs into my plan. I’m going to remain focused on the dog drafting, and not get into horse drafting while I’m changing up so much at once. I think though that I’m going to consider a lot of horse compatible implements, that can be pulled with a small tractor, and could be easily converted to horse power at a later date. Even the little lawn tractors come in 20-30 hp with a single point hitch, I don’t need to buy into the three point hitch system.

[Andy Carson]

Denise, I would still try to visit some farms before you get too invested in any plans. Maybe animal power is not for you, but maybe sitting on a tractor is not for you either. If you decide that animal power is for you, I would be cautious about planning on starting with tractors and then switching over to animal power later. When you hit a rough spot with the animals (we all do), it will be extremely tempting to just go get the tractor. The result of that will likely be animals that are less used, less trained, and less conditioned, and the temptation to “get the tractor” will be even greater. This is why I have shunned the tractor, but there are plenty of people on this board who mix animals and tractors without seeming to abandon thier animals. I know I don’t have that sort of discipline when the machine is just sitting there and time is ticking away… In checking out animals, you might want to check out work mules too. I have heard alot of people say thier attitudes are somewhat “doglike.” Again, you will definately want a well trained one.

PS. Another animal to think visit and think about, especially if you are not working much ground, is a donkey. I have read that they can be useful for guarding your sheep too, so he/she might not be out of a job if you don’t end up using him/her much.

[goodcompanion]

@Countymouse 18601 wrote:

Denise, I would still try to visit some farms before you get too invested in any plans.

Have to agree with that. You really can’t plan a small farming operation from books and research on the net. If you can find a real person in your area who is doing something somewhat similar to what you would like to do, get to know them and their farm, and let their experiences be your guide. Probably, for someone in your situation, one hour talking to someone with real experience doing this work and taking in the situation with your own senses is worth at least a dozen hours reading books or on the net.

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