What is it going to take to revive the NAHMLA?

[Carl Russell]

Thank you Scott for starting this discussion, and thank you Tim, Gregg, Jason, and Jim for all the work you have done getting the word out to people. We definitely need to find ways to help more people feel that they are welcome and able to help out, and show them that just because there are a few people working close to the center it doesn’t mean that their contributions are somehow less important. Making contact with a broad community through the mechanism of a newsletter is a very important contribution.

We can also make an appeal to people to find the best ways for them to feel good about participating, helping to bring more people into the active center.

Carl

[Scott G]

Keeping everyone involved is a continuing struggle of any association. No one should be expected to carry the load alone, provided they ask for/accept help. I believe, due to the fact that horse/mule/ox loggers are such a small percentage of the forestry community, that an international aspect may work well. If we tap into the energy that BHL, Skoghasten, and possibly others currently have it could be a jump start with high potential.

Being that I’m not a member of NAHMLA (although I sincerely wanted to be), I gather that I would not be able to vote at a possible meeting to be convened at some future date. As I said at the very beginning, it is unfortunate when people want to join an organization to further the “greater good” and network with one another that the possibility doesn’t exist due to inactivity of said organization. I am more than willing to move forward with whatever opportunity presents itself and to help in any support role required. This is what I was hoping for, to get the core folks that care about draft powered harvesting systems and are willing to get involved and want to see a higher level of cohesion/networking, talking……

Another aspect I liked about Gregg’s newsletter were the letters he received and published, titled “Who’s doin'”. I think a great way to get more content for a newsletter would be to REQUIRE as a condition for membership, other than subscription/dues, a minimum of a half-page written up describing where you are, what you’re doin, and how. You could fill up a quarterly pub pretty quickly with those as well as have many archived for future use.

My thoughts, lets hear yours………..

[Jim Ostergard]

I really like the idea based on the “Who’s doin’.” I think its empowering when one is working alone to hear about others, where they are, their markets and just the general day to day of doin’ it. Some sort of dove tail with this site would be essential in reaching some of the newer folks who want to get started with horse logging.
Jim

[simon lenihan]

This is something i have thought long and hard about for quiet a while now, i have subscribed to alot of draft horse magasines over the years but have been disapointed with the lack of horselogging articles, i know these publications have to cover all draft horse activites but as a full time horselogger i am always looking how fellow horseloggers are making a living and what equipment they are using etc. I think an international newsletter is the way to go similar to what gregg produced. I would like the said news letter to include as many countries as possible, the system they use, the equipment, the different horses, horseloggers profiles, the different types of harness etc. This sounds great but is it possible, what will it cost?, what about translating to other languages. I would love to try and put out a sample news letter but i would be worried about what it would cost.
simon lenihan

[john plowden]

I have been following this thread for a while – not saying much as I’m not quite sure how to articulate my thoughts – Simon has beaten me to the punch so to speak – I have done lots of internet and periodical research trying to find and follow other professional or full time horse loggers and keep coming up with most of the folks here. I am sure there are more and think a network and news letter would connect with those that aren’t “connected”- The interest in our craft is growing and a place to share what is working for us, how we do it and net work a bit would be great!
Count me in –
John

[Rick Alger]

To have a thriving association, we need thriving loggers. But right now most of us are in survival mode. In spite of some excellent ideas about value adding, the core of our business is the log check, and there is not enough in the log check department to provide us a living wage.

The logging economy has changed drastically since the heyday of the NHMLA, and I think a reborn association should change with it. I think it should be more like a political action committee with the purpose of getting public cost-share money for environmentally sensitive animal logging. There are programs already, such as the USDA’s WHIP program, that reward green forestry practices. We should put our energies into getting our share of that kind of money.

If my operation was subsidised $50.00 a thousand, it would allow me to think in terms of continuing the business instead of just using up my assets as I am doing now.

I’m all for networking, but let’s put our time and energy into dealing with the real problem.

Rick Alger

[Gabe Ayers]

One good thing about the internet is the google translation feature. I have visited a French web site of a fellow name Jean Leo Dugast and used that translation button and it was readable in English. We surely have peers working with animals in the forest all over the world.

Some things we all have in common is how hard the work is, how dangerous and how difficult it is to make a decent living at it, particularly when the intention is to be sustainable, restorative or improving on the natural resources.

I think we all have more in common than different, so an association could help us grow personally and collectively. It would be wonderful to see this happen.

HHFF would be a part of this international or world association in any way possible. This work would be for the public good indeed.

Maybe taking Carl’s offer up to start a separate page for the formation of this group would be an appropriate next step. We have a page at the http://www.restorativeforestry.com site but keeping the spammers or robot computers out of these places seems about impossible and an unnecessary distraction. That may just be the price paid for such a world connected medium. Putting a hard copy newsletter out in multiple languages may be harder, but has to be a part of the effort because more people still don’t have internet than do. We won’t ever get everyone involved, but having some principle proven practitioners from all over the world would be a good start.

I think we should do some research on the Humanities groups and see if there may be some support for such an endeavor that would cross political borders to support culture that is beneficial to the human race. It will take some money – beyond membership fees – to do this particularly at a start up phase.

Not to jump to far ahead, but I nominate Scott Golden as the Chairman of the planning committee. Do I hear a second?

What next folks?

[Jim Ostergard]

I second that nomination Jason. I also agree with the idea of a combination of using a section of DAP and a hard copy newsletter. Was up to Jason Irish’s getting Rusty fitted today and he was a long ago member. Doesn’t use the internet so it gave weight to the idea of hardcopy. I think also at fair, demos and such having a newsletter to hand out with a sign up sheet is useful.
I would be willing to noodle over the editing and pagination of a newsletter with some help. I don’t have any old newsletters to get some ideas from so if there are some copies of a couple somebody could mail that would be nice. i also think we need to look for some funds as J. suggested and also that we need to work in the political arena. If the mills can get loads of money for burning black gold we should have a good argument for the kind of work we do receiving something to keep it going. I know for myself if it were not for the social security paying the house rent I would really be hurting with horse logging. Great discussion and great ideas from everybody. I think John and Simon really hit it also. Loads of heavy horse info but often real dry spots when it comes to logging.
Best kind of a day to all…..Jim

[Scott G]

All,
I would be happy to be part of the effort. I do believe, however, that number one it has to be a team effort. The old adage “many hands make light work” really carries a lot of weight here; especially when we talk about the spirit of the effort on which we are about to embark.

Jim, I am glad that you like the idea of subscriber contribution. I believe its imperative to get input from the group we disseminate this information to. Networking is not by definition a one-way street. That aspect of Caudell’s newsletter was one of my favorites if for no other reason than acknowledging that there are other folks out there making a go at it and mentioning the method to their madness. I think the “dovetail” could come from an online presence and links/notices to various draft associations, forestry associations, state/provincial foresters’ offices, etc. Thank you for your offer to help with editing. This is a case where the Internet can be a god-sent for our cause, enabling us to ship files back and forth to one another and electronically submit them to a publisher and/or printer who will give us the best deal, both in price and quality, regardless of geographical location.

Simon, thank you very much for your input! You will be key in being an international liaison for the effort. I am not worried so much about translation. In my past I have been exposed to many nationalities and languages. Even though I am not fluently bilingual in any language, there are always folks from the various nationalities in any discipline that are. I have seen English translations for Skoghasten, which seems to be the most active other than the BHL. Other nationalities can provide translation as they come on board as part of their contribution to the effort. I do not believe we should be overly concerned with that. Interest will facilitate participation.

Rick, believe me, I realize the situation. Competing for stumpage and trying to make a living off of your log deck is an exercise in futility with the current market in pulp, fuelwood, and construction lumber. Based on your region, I would assume that you deal more with stud & pulpwood mills rather than quality hardwood processors. Whatever the case, I believe in order to be successful there needs to be a paradigm shift. You speak of value-added. That term can take on many more meanings rather than just timber products. I would also assume that your area in NH, just like mine in CO, is experiencing a tremendous growth in vacation/second homes for the more affluent. These folks are more concerned with esthetics and maintaining a peaceful retreat as their management objectives than anything else. Having a major timber sale go down on their property is not an attractive option, at least in my part of the country. If they have offers from both mechanical and horse operations for their stumpage, of course they’ll pick the horse logger for the low-impact option if that is their primary concern. The fact that they realize any income after being use to paying for tree/arboricultural services’ at their primary residence leaves a smile on their face. In my opinion, to try to pull that off while paying inflated stumpage rates is an exercise in futility as a horse logger. The more feasible business model for a horse logger (which I use) is to charge a set rate for their ‘value-added’, low-impact service as a service. This service is set at an hourly, area (acre/hectare), or volume (mbf, cord, m3, etc.) rate. In my area a practice that I coin “knee jerk forestry”, which I hate, is the standard operational practice. If there is smoke in the air it is fuels reduction and D-space, current bark beetle issues it is sanitation/salvage, haz tree removal and so on. Even though I hate it, the fact remains that it represents the landowners concerns at the time and hence the outlet for their maintenance and/or disposable income as well as grant assistance money. Done right, and I harp on this, you can address all of these concerns with quality proactive forest management. If there is significant value in the stumpage, I will either deduct the mill receipts from the bill after trucking or send the landowner my bill with the trucking bill and have the mill check sent directly to the owner. As I said in an earlier post, I very seldom purchase stumpage unless it is an awesome site and the market is very favorable. Providing a service, billed as a service, is my standard mode of operation, even when I was running a mechanical operation. As a current professional land manager for an agency, I pull my hair out when we are trying to pull off forest management on a landscape scale due to the excessive land fragmentation we have in our region. From a horse logger perspective, this reality is an opportunity that plays into every advantageous aspect that animal powered harvesting systems can offer. This is a topic that deserves its own thread, as I believe it is the future of our cause, making lemonade out of lemons.

As far as subsidies, Rick mentioned WHIP. That acronym stands for Wildlife Habitat Incentive Program. There are also or have been, SIP (Stewardship Incentive Program), FIP (Forestry Incentive Program), FLEP (Forested Land Enhancement Program), and so on… The main points of all these programs historically are that they pay cost share to the landowner, not the practitioner. The only future option that shows promise is BCAP, that pays a supplier a subsidy on a per ton basis for woody biomass as fuel. This program is in its infancy and I am involved in the Rocky Mtn region with its potential implementation. I’ll fill everyone in on this later, no more government acronyms for now….

Another item Rick and others mentioned are PACs’. I have no interest and believe this would be an insurmountable leap for a fledgling effort to undertake. PACs’ require a phenomenal amount of money, and contrary to popular beliefs, really strap your organization down as far as what you can and can’t do as well as creating a burdensome reporting process. PACs’ are for large corporate industry and well-heeled trade groups, something I have no desire to be involved with. In my opinion, we are better off marketing our virtues in a non-traditional, but very available and in demand, market.

To sum it up, I think first we should start with a communication effort that reaches all demographics of draft powered forestry practitioners; this includes a hard copy newsletter. Based on the future response, we should survey subscribers to see what the interest is in forming an organization. I believe we have a very real and important role in the future of forestry in this world, especially given the current concerns regarding resource extraction and environmental impact. This however, will require a paradigm shift in the way we operate and subsequently, charge for our services. To continue as in the past is only going to result in repeatedly banging a peavey upside our heads……..

Take care,
Scott

[lancek]

hey guys I not real sharp with this computer stuff but I would think that some where there is a multi language word program that you could use to translate into differant languages! And I agree 100% about useing our coult to try and do some good on the goverment front.

[Carl Russell]

So we’re getting a lot on the table already. We need to figure out if we are going to try to reinvigorate NAHMLA, or are we going to establish a new group. I say this only because I don’t have much historical knowledge or involvement with NAHMLA, AND because I wonder if there would need to be some formal transition to a newly ambitious group.

It sounds to me like there may be some new goals and objectives that may make this group different.

There are a lot of things that this association could do, or work for, but in its most simple form, I think we should see it as a way for us to connect in a constructive way to implement actions that will advance the practice of animal powered timber harvesting.

The idea of getting Gov’t assistance for low impact harvesting is interesting, but my preference would be to formalize an approach to animal powered forestry that could be replicated. If we were to establish a region by region association of forest professionals working with horse loggers to institute the type of timber harvests that are more appropriate for animals, it would be more profitable, better for the forest, and better for the landowners.

Using this type of association to connect and inform members about these issues, could not only be beneficial to each member, but it could also energize a broader community around animal powered forestry.

Using this organization to help member make connections to help establish educational opportunities, group harvesting cooperatives, and regional marketing initiatives, are also other ways that I think would be valuable.

I think that we could also use this site, and possibly others as sources for material to put into a newsletter. Getting people to contribute electronically would be a good hybridization of web and paper.

Today was the first day I have worked a full day in the woods since May, so I’m fading fast. Cleared a trail to the top of our property, through narrow passages between rock outcroppings covered with large hemlock. Beautiful, beautiful site, with overlooks out into the valley where we live. Just feels good to have the opportunity to work with animals in a setting like that.

Good night, Carl

[Iron Rose]

I belonged to the NAHMLA for many years and wrote a few articles for the newsletter. But there is a limit to what a few people can do. To make a n organiztion work you must have participation from the all members. Many people say well I’m just not a writer, makes no difference we all have something to say. Maybe what is needed is a website like the DAP were we can share information. The web would be much cheaper way than a hardcopy newsletter due to postage costs.
Although I’m no longer a active horselogger (due to bad knee’s to many years of shoeing horses). I would totaly support any attempt to get such a organization going.

Count me in

Dan

[Gabe Ayers]

First I would like to make a motion we determine to start a completely new group with a different name, goals, objectives and mission statement.

The legal status is unimportant at this point and can be something decided later if deemed important or to our advantage in pulling it off. If we need a fiscal agent for grants or tax deductible donations earmarked to the Animal Powered Forestry Association then HHFF is in a legal status to do that, but since it seems to a better fit to have a membership organization then that may not be necessary.

The strength of this effort will be the sharing of the group about methods, techniques, opportunities and strategies for making a living doing this work.

There are many ways to do this work and the economics are unfortunately the bottom line, pun intended. It is like I often say in many talks as I take out my wallet and say “this is the most environmentally sensitive part of all of us – if we can’t change the system so that those who do the best work can make a living from it – nothing will change”.

Some of us are doing that already and need to share those approaches with anyone sincerely interested and experienced enough to understand it.

It’s getting late, but I wanted to share a couple of images that are exactly what Scott is talking about when he says sell the services of superior forest management for what they are worth….or certainly more than the dominant paradigm, status quo, industry folks would pay if they could continue to have their way…

I am attaching a couple of photos of a structure we sourced the material for a company that is using the sourcing methods as a sales pitch to “green” consumers for Timber Frame Structures. These photos show the use of art and demonstration to introduce the public to the culture in a high traffic place. These photos are of a stage and sound system control structure called the “front of the house” at the Floyd Festival site. The art is a local artist renditions from photos we provided. The images are intended to link the customer with the source of their building materials. We will write an article for the Draft Horse pubs about this work and it would be a great place to introduce the new group project and field the general interest from the cultural base that the readers are.

Let me know what you think. This new group is a good story and a good start to our determined effort to change the way things are done in the forests everywhere we can…. We (HHFF) are honored to be a part of it. Thanks to everyone that is connecting with this… we are on our way….

It is getting later here and this discussion will be continued…

Glad you are again tired in that horselogger rewarding way too Carl. Our hemlock are gone in this particular part of the Appalachians.

[Wes Gustafson]

This is a great discussion. It’s easy to just ‘listen’ sometimes to the discussion without jumping in. So I guess it’s jumping in time.
I’ve got a bunch of ideas for a horse logging ‘newsletter’, whether it’s a hard copy or online. My preference has always been for the furthering of skills, ideas, and especially focusing on the details of horse logging that can make all the difference in our enjoyment and success in logging with our horses.

My vote is for a hard copy newsletter. Something that you can hold in your hand, turn actual pages, look at photographs without waiting for a computer to load an image, read while your waiting, read while your in the bathroom (probably the best place).

My vote is for non-incorporation. When you incorporate, the state owns the corporation legally. Ouch. Let’s not willingly put ourselves in that noose.

The more detail that can be woven into the newsletter about logging with our horses, the better. For example: How did I get my team trained to forestry work? What kind of horse do I look for when considering a logging horse? What ways have I found work best to get logs from the logging site to their final destination? How can I add value to the logs that I pull out of the woods, so that I can sell a finished product, and make enough money to live on?
Glenn French always featured a ‘tip’ in the NAHMLA newsletter, that had some great, detailed ideas that really work. For example, one newsletter featured the bullhook. I’ve made a couple of them over the years, and don’t think that I have ever logged without a bullhook since using one.
Gregg Caudell’s walking beam log arch. Jim Bower’s multi-wheeled log forwarder. These and many other plans and ideas get lost, forgotten or not known at all to some folks. hard copy newletters can be compiled in a folder or binder for easy reference.

On to another, sort-of related idea:

At the 1994 Small Farmer’s Journal spring auction in Redmond, Oregon, horse logging was featured in a big way. Glenn French and NAHMLA had a booth, Gregg Caudell and the International Horselogger’s Newsletter had a booth next to Glenn. Horseloggers brought teams, log arches, logs, chain saws and peaveys. There was an afternoon logging demo with various styles of arches pulling logs around. It was great. There was a NAHMLA meeting one of the nights where business was discussed and presentations were made.
At the latest (2009) SFJ auction, Greg Lange and I talked about having another Horseloggers Get-Together as part of, or concurrent with, next year’s SFJ auction. It would be a great time for those of us who go to the auction anyway, to have something tangible to look forward to that would feature constructive, detailed ideas and skills to share with each other.
It could even become a regular yearly event. All the information, along with pictures of the event could be compiled and become the content for a newsletter. Those of you on the east coast probably couldn’t make it, but you could read about it in a newsletter.

One idea for the newsletter is that maybe it should be event-driven, rather than monthly or quarterly. In other words, if a horselogging event takes place, the event could be photographed and written about, then compiled into a newsletter and sent out to those who want it. It would be possible to have the newsletter basically completed by the time the event is over.

If a horselogger wants to photograph and describe a logging job that he is involved in, that job, or series of jobs could become a newsletter.

Doing it that way would take the burden off of one or two guys spending all their time putting a newsletter together.

Wes

[cousin jack]

Hello everyone, I class myself as an aspiring horselogger, fortunately I have a very good mentor in Simon Lenihan, I for one would be willing to contribute articles even if it was only from a beginners perspective, anyway, count me in.

[Author]

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