Wont stop backing up

[edgewood farm]

Hi everyone-
I am new to this forum and new to driving. I have a very stout mustang that i am training to drive. So far all I have done with him is ground drive. He is great with the ground driving, most of the time. I have noticed that he is concerned with the PVC pipes on the ground from my wifes jumps, so I have been working with him on getting used to them and driving over the pipes laying on the ground. I started with leading him over to them to investigate, took my time, let his sniff and investigate. Then I led him over them, took a while, but he was willing to follow me over them. the hard part is driving him over them with me behind. I have had mixed results. If I take small incremental steps and slowly bring two pipes together and close the gap, over multiple passes he will cross them at the end of a training session. My problem is sometimes he gets stuck and wont want to move forward. If I keep him there in front of the pipe, and keep asking him to move forward, he will back up directly into me. This is without me asking him to back. I do not know what the technique is to communicate to a horse through the lines to stop backing up. There is no pressure on the lines, and he still backs up. I think it is his way of avoiding something he does not want to do.

Thoughts?

Brian Beck

[jac]

Hi Brian.. Welcome.. I would try substituting the pvc poles for a natural color pole and try that.. also is he in blinders or an open bridle ?
John

[edgewood farm]

John,
He is in an open bridle. No blinders. The natural color is a good idea, but that only helps with getting over the pole, what should I do about the backing up from something he wants to avoid?

Brian

[jac]

My reason for asking about the blinders is that if the poles are set close enough together that if he gets distracted for a second on the approach to the pole in front of him then catches sight of the pole in rear he might be balking at the pole he percieves to be under him..I am assuming the poles are around 3′ apart… if that isnt the case then all I can sugest is to persivere with a ton of encouragemet..Im sure there will be a lot of other ideas and tips from these guys an gals on here.. good luck..
John

[Donn Hewes]

I think you are dealing with a couple related, but separate problems. the poles on the ground should be a small obstacle. and working the horse in hand, ie. leading them, you should be able over come those relatively easy. You can also work the animal loose with obstacles like pvc pipe. you can hold the pipe and use it to guide them around the ring. and ultimately have them stand still while you approach them and touch them with it.

When approaching something an animal is unsure of while driving in harness, some different things are going on. Some animals will find every new little thing difficult and some thing they must inspect with great caution, others will worry about almost nothing. the list includes parked cars, their reflection in a window, dogs, lawn mowers, and it goes on and on. We need a careful approach, that allows each animal the time they need to accept that thing is not a threat or danger for them, but we also need to a method where the teamster is the leader conducting the “investigation”. Thus your question about backing up.

Her are some tips for deal with those little obstacles that are a distraction for your animal. Start out driving by with out stopping at a distance that you feel does not overly distract the animal. This gives you an idea of how big a deal it is going to be. You can gradually get closer. I seldom walk straight into something to investigate, an angle allows for leaving by continuing more or less forward. Try to gauge the distance that you animal can handle without over reacting. When they start to loose the ability to stay; go. Get a little closer the next time. There are individuals that really get hung up on one particular thing. There is nothing wrong with going to their head to investigate it together. make light of it. Your were afraid of this? Kick it around a little. keep the animal with you.

Backing is a unusual situation in that there aren’t really line signals to stop backing. This is true whether you are investigating something on the ground or teaching an animal to back a vehicle. Again, we want to create a method were we are providing the leadership for their actions. Here are some things I do. I always stop after backing only a few feet. simple say whoa and release the pressure. If they don’t stop they will learn. stopping several times while backing builds an expectation on their part and they are more willing to stop on command. Also, I find we are always backing because we want to put something in a specific spot, just like parking our car stopping allows us to put it right where we want it with less going forward and back to get it there.

Finally, because the is no real line signal to stop backing a horse that wants to keep backing can be dealt with in a couple ways. Backing into a little stick is possible and will work OK if the animal is use to this as a training method. I tend to give a little kiss (a little signal to go forward) immediately followed by a whoa. all of these things will be a little difficult for an animal that is really focused on the thing on the ground in front of them.

[Scott G]

First off, welcome. You have found a great resource to network with.

As has been mentioned, anything new to your animals warrants an investigation on their part to deem it safe. Your obligation is to allow that, let them learn, but ALWAYS maintain the rules with them that you are the one in control of the situation. Some horses are boogered more as individuals than others by certain things and hence need more time to “get over it”, in this case it is your PVC jump standards.

If the scary thing is easily portable and won’t hurt them, put it in the corral with them where they hang out, feed, etc… In a few days they won’t even pay any attention to it, accepting the object as part of their natural environment.

I wouldn’t waste time painting the jump standards/rails a natural color. You are just camoflauging the situation rather than allowing them the chance to accept it. Horses will come to accept almost anything that will not literally eat them. That trait is part of what makes them the incredible universal animals that they are.

As far as the backing, it is exactly as Donn mentioned, pressure and then the release of pressure. An appropriate stick, prod, etc… held out so that when they back they back directly into it with a corresponding “whoa” when they feel the pressure. Allow them to back into it; don’t jab it into their ass. Be ready for a jolt forward the first time or two with another “whoa” with momentary bit pressure to enforce the moment. It is all about pressure and release of pressure. All of this should be followed by a few moments of relaxation with some reassuring tones from you. Remember that you are the one that the horse is looking to for guidance once that level of trust has been established. Take your time…

[Donn Hewes]

Scott, Thanks for adding the point about “taking a moment to relax”. That is part of the reason I stop a few times, but some how I forget to mention it in a description. Allowing the teamster and the horses to relax is very important in my opinion.

Often when some one describes a small problem they feel they are having, I suggest make it take longer, don’t rush to put the trouble behind you. This will include that time to relax while you are working out what ever the current issue is.

[blue80]

Hi Brian, and welcome!

In addition to the above excellent suggestions, depending on the level of trust you have with your horse, some round pen training may also be in order? The horse should, as mentioned, look to you for guidance. They show they are paying attention to you during a working situation mainly with their ears. If they are worrying about everything/something, they are often just forgetting to look to you for instruction. The round pen natural horsemanship techniques establish/reaffirm this working trust quite effectively, as well as flexion.
A great way to rest regroup and relieve tension for the horse and teamster is stand with your hand on their rump. Think this is a Doc H trick I use(so I tried this with my wife but the tension during a disagreement didn’t dissolve:confused:)
If the horse decides to back, stop or make a decision without your lead, and the decision of the horse isn’t going to hurt anything, you may quickly use your verbal command to maintain/establish some control over the situation and just work through it. I think that is a Lynn Miller trick I use when training, consistency and patience being the key.

It’s always interesting to learn if a horse is being belligerent, scared, or other emotion. Sometimes a well placed snack/reward-not a bribe- at the right time brings focus back to you just before a tough task is required from the boogeyman…

Kevin

[edgewood farm]

Thank you all for your advice. So far my training sessions go something like this. groom and tack up in the barn. Lead tank out to the ring with the jumps and PVC. lead him around the ring and let him observe his surroundings. lead him up to one of the PVC pipes on the ground and let him sniff and wait for a lick and chew. then I place two pipes parallel to each other and walk him through them. each time I walk him through I move one end of the pipes closer together until they make a V and he still walks over them. During all this I will add diversions of picking up his feet, etc. then I connect the long lines and start to ground drive him. I repeat the same process while driving him and sometimes he will be a champ. (if so i praise him a lot and bring him back to the barn) and sometimes this is where he gets stubborn and wont go over the pipes. This is where I get frustrated, but do my best not to show it. I don’t see why he will walk around, and over them with me leading, and walk through them untill the last one where they are actually a V and he has to walk OVER them while I drive from behind. this is where he will stop. want to go left or right and when I keep him in front and continue to ask him to move forward, he moves back instead.

Brian

[edgewood farm]

Also, I have yet to do any round pen work with him. I addopted him from the BLM as a green broke horse. I have ridden him on trails and my wife rides him in the ring . When I got interested in driving, I just put a surcingle on and used some long lines and started to ground drive. He took to it right away and that was my beginning. So far I have just worked with him in the ring and once we went for a drive around the farm. I am unfamilure with round pen work, where should I look for info?

Brian

[Jean]

I don’t know why it would make a difference, but if he came from the BLM, he may be used to cattle grates and he may see the PVC pipe as a grate. That does not explain why he will walk over it while being led, but not while being driven. I would try a replacing it with a log, or something taller and see if that changes his point of view. If it does then you know it is the pipe and can continue to work on that.

As far as round penning, my favorite is Doc Hammill. He has a lot of information on his website.
Good luck and post some pictures when you can.
Jean

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Brian, I am sure you gave some consideration to the benefits and draw backs of learning to drive your self while teaching this horse. One concern I have with such a set up is horses getting bored. A round pen can be a useful place to teach a horse certain specific things, but it is a lousy place for a horse to work repeatedly as you gather skills to take the horse further. Just like smart kids in school they get bored easily, and don’t really benefit from excessive repetition after they have learned something. This is not to say I won’t go back and repeat a drill as needed, but I continue to add new material as fast as they can absorb it. They thrive on this as you have them fully engaged.

Do you have plans for the work you would like this horse to do? Do you have the equipment you need? I would build a plan that ends with them doing useful work. He will appreciate this. This may or may not be easy to do with your experience level.

[blue80]

In this case I suggested round pen work because your horse should primarily look to you for instruction, if he already isn’t. Round pen work establishes a pecking order with the horse that they look to you as the dominant partner in the “band.” So when they are scared (a horse’s primary defense to the unknown is flight) they will look to you for direction, instead of acting on their own discretion. Are your horses ears “watching” you?
Round pen work gives the ability to desensitize to a plethera of objects in a short amount of time, and when the horse decides to make a decision, you can give them a “break” from training by running in circles at speeds and directions which you command to get rid of some extra energy. They learn that the center of the round pen being handled, flexed by you gives less pressure than being driven around a pen. And of course, being ridden vs. driven is a milestone for a horse that has only been ridden.
I have had horses that took two hours in the round pen to give me complete attention, and some that took 5 minutes. Later, a tune up often only takes 5-10 minutes….

Putting lines on them in the round pen is a great way to start, so they get used to being driven from behind and beside them, and establishes voice commands. Rarely will their be an occasion where the horse will feel pain in their mouth, unless they step on a line. A solid “go” and “Whoa” is best taught in the round pen in my opinion. Lynn Millers books show how to do this very well, and at what point a horse is ready to start “working”

And as Donn said, the horse may be bored. I have just started working an 8 year old mare that has never driven. She has shown me that pulling a tire, drag, slip, and telephone pole gets boring after a short time, like 15 minutes. She starts looking around and making her own decisions. So I hooked her up to the disk, and she loved it. But didn’t have her ears on me. another 1 hr. in the round pen and she is looking to me for instruction again. But sometimes she still doesn’t stop backing up when we stop;) Her mouth is even softer than her “broke” partner, she backs up to relieve all pressure I think, and because she thinks it’s ok…..

I have doc’s videos and can send them to you if you want, they are good but have put many to sleep…. I prefer Clinton Andersons’ 3 hr. “road to the horse” which is entertaining and shows a lot of options in a short time.
There are lots of ways and different options, sounds like you are well on your way.

If you have a certain boogeyman they can’t get over, I have no problem waiting a little to feed them, and then feed them on top of the boogeyman. Feed them in a trailer, water puddle, sprinkler, pipes, whatever, They decide pretty quick on their own that they want a meal and work things out on their own….

[richa]

Hello Brian,
I trained two blm out.
Sounds like avoiding the bit on the backing. Mouth may be sore. How are your hands to bit?
I always round pen my horses, no leads no halter, until you know the horse, and they respond to all voice commands. Start from square one again.
But, as stated by others, then the real work begins outside the pen.
In the west we have cattle gates that stop most livestock from xing. My BLM usually jumped clear over the poles at first.
Richa

[edgewood farm]

All,

Thank you for all your input. I think I need to go to the round ring and work with Tank there. I need to do some work on voice commands and building a better relationship. Kevin, if you are willing to send me your Doc Hamill videos I would greatly appreciate them. Email me if you are still willing.
My address is
rowerbeck@yahoo.com

5291 Scuffletown Rd
Bartboursville, VA
22923

Thanks to all and I will keep you informed on my progress.

Brian

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