Working with horses…leadership vs agendas

[jen judkins]

Just got back from a skijoring event in Quebec City and all weekend I was struck with one insight after another while working with my Arab cross. It was a crazy event…had to drive my rig through the old city, park between mountainous snow piles. The race course was smack in the middle of the winter carnival, with gigantic ice sculptures, flags waving and people flying (quite literally) through the air on high lines. Off in the distance was a giant slide where people piled into a giant raft and went careening down a hillside, then the snowmobiles would drag them back up the hill. It was quite alot to look at and be in the middle of.

As we unloaded on Saturday morning, I felt my anxiety levels rise somewhat. So I was not surprised to find my hot-blooded arab cross equally nervous when he stepped off the trailer. I’m pretty good at hiding anxiety from other people, but not from my horse. In fact, I’m pretty sure the incongruence between how I feel and how I act is even more unnerving to him. Anyway, I am gonna make a point here at some point…

It was a challenging day for us. Don’t get me wrong, we had a blast racing…but there was alot of de-escalating going on. My leadership with this horse is good and we’ve been through alot together, but at one point during the day it dawned on me that Manny wasn’t really having a good time:rolleyes:.

So thinking back on the discussion about ‘training old school’ I started wondering about the differences between getting a job done with a content and happy horse vs having an agenda that the horse must comply with. One implies a working relationship, the other implies force or coercion. I was surprised how closely these two situations live to each other. Actually I was appalled that I had come that close to the latter.

After our last run, and all the adrenaline was used up, Manny and I went for a walk through the crowds, followed the horse drawn sleds and unwound in general and I found at the end of the day, the relationship was intact as well as my leadership.

But I wondered about how some of you deal with this issue with your work horses. I mean there must be days when you have to get a job done or suffer consequences. What do you do if your horse is having a bad day or is having a training issue? My general intention is to deal with any training or behavior issues as they come up, but I realized that there are times when a teamster might just need to get the job done. I know it is sort of unfair to compare a hot blooded horse like my skijoring horse, Manny to a cold blooded draft horse, but it also struck me that the difference between a content, happy draft horse and one that is anxious or shut down might be hard to see. In contrast, Manny is pretty easy to read as his expressive range is quite large:eek:

Anyway, I’m wondering if you all have any thoughts about this sort of thing? What are your markers for a productive and stress free work day and what signs would make you back off, do something different or whatever?

[lifehorsequine.org]

Hi Jennifer,
I’d like to respond to your posting about working a horse ‘old school.’

First, let me commend you on your thoughtful approach to communicating your experiences. It sounds like you take your horses needs into consideration and are interested in learning more about how to apply your useful knowledge further, as well as gain more. It also sounds like you are concerned about your approach to training your horses, as well as how well they will respond.

I’m a Communication Coach and one of my coaching programs uses horses to help humans transition into more effective communicators. My mantra is ” A HORSE DOES NOT AWAKEN EVERY MORNING, FIND A MIRROR, MEASURE ITSELF, AND THEN BELIEVE IT WOULD LOOK AND FEEL BETTER AS A DIFFERENT HORSE.” On the other hand, that’s the first thing most humans do every morning…find a mirror, find a way to measure their appearance, find fault with it, and then try and make themselves believe they would look and feel better as some glittered out botoxed media magnet. They already have a conversation going before their first cup of coffee!!! With themselves!

To my knowledge, horses don’t do this.

So…

One of the platforms I teach about in my workshops (using A DRAFT HORSE,) is what a humans intention is when they enter into a conversation, with another human, or an animal.

Many times, when humans enter into conversations with other humans, they have an ‘agenda,’ a conversation already going on inside their heads. They confuse being agreed with with being accepted or being loved, choose anger when they are not agreed with and find fault with the other person when they don’t get their way.

When a human begins a conversation with another human, or a horse, one must remember and take to heart, that ‘there is a fine line between getting what you want and standing up for what you believe in.’

So when a human works with a horse, there can be no ‘agenda,’ no other intention than to have a conversational exchange, verbal and non, to get along and enjoy working as a team. If we stop for a moment to think about our fears, the what if’s, the oh my gosh’s, then plant them on the other person or our horse, we open up the conversation for the horse to join our fears and get the heck outta dodge! Remember, he is a fright or flight animal. A horse smells our fear, feels it’s vibration, before we have time to act on it.

Horses, as you know, do not relate to humans with agendas. They are clear and consistent in their communication and responses. Whether we are working with a two thousand pound Draft horse or a Shetland Pony, the language is still the same…the intent is still the same. We may need to present it differently depending on size, breed, temperment, weather, etc…you get the picture. We still are a human communicating with a horse and the first thing we better do is observe him when we get to his house, be a good listener and remember that this very sensitive animal, no matter his size, is allowing us in it’s most vulnerable space to exchange information and walk together as a team.

Hope this information is of some value to you.

Please visit my website at http://www.lifehorsequine.org for more information or email me at sjd@lifehorsequine.org to schedule a workshop.
Regards,
SJ Dortch
Director/Coach
LIFEHORSequine.org

HAPPY TRAILS…

[Carl Russell]

There are good days and bad days, but I have to do just what you did. I can’t go riding through the streets pf old Quebec City, but I have to find that place inside me that is the same as that. Even though I might have to get the job done, I also have to come back tomorrow, and into the future, so I have to measure the horse, which is usually a reflection of me. I
find that I can turn a bad day around if I remember to breath, and find that place of peace.

To put it in terms of logging. It’s better to unload half the sled and come back for a second trip, and preserve the working relationship, than it is to get hung up on what you thought you were going to get done.

This is what I referred to in the other thread as managing expectations. Have high expectations of the horse, but be willing to see when you’re being selfish.

Carl

[Plowboy]

It’s all by the severity of the situation I guess. If a horse has a small fit about doing a job then we try to work through it. Lately I have been working with a kicker that is owned by a friend of ours. We haven’t found her exact trigger yet. She was a pretty aggressive kicker with both feet last year. I drove her yesterday and she only kicked once with one foot while backing a wagon to turn around. She flicks her tail a lot and that is a potential sign of a kicker. I was apprehensive to put her through her paces knowing her background but by the end of the lesson she was ok so she needs some hard work to make her give up on the kicking habit. I have a hard time letting them get away with not doing something familiar to them. Something new to them if they refuse I might try it from a different angle or let them think about it and let them think it’s their idea.
As far as broke horses they are expected to do whatever I ask within reason and will because they trust me like your Manny does for you. Once my Dad did wagon rides for a big city wide “First Night” celebration that involved fireworks. He agreed to do it only because the fireworks wouldn’t start until an hour after the wagon rides. He dropped off the last load and headed for the trailer and the fireworks started. The mares are great horses and did nothing wrong but they shook from fright all the way back to the trailer. He made up his mind at that point he would never put them in that type of situation again for any amount of money. They did try for several years to get him to come back to no avail.

[becorson]

Very good questions, especially (?) for any folks that work with horses or other animals in a public setting. In that setting you have to consider not only the animals’ well being, and your relationship with them, but also the impressions that the “audience” is getting.

Every animal and every setting is different –My paint mare is un-fazed by re-enactment cannons, but my ox was stressed by just being inside the Farm Show building in harrisburg, with the crowds, stollers, all the lights and the PA system booming.
obviously there can’t be a cookbook approach to know “when to hold em and when to fold em “…. i guess our responsibility is to know our animals, and care about them even at the same time that we care about a larger job we are trying to do with their help. just my two cents worth

[jen judkins]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies, everyone…

Carl, As I hit the ‘post new thread’ button, I thought….sh*&%$#, Carl is just gonna tell me that he never has a bad day with a horse and I need better focus. So thanks for your simple reply…much appreciated.

SJ..where did you come from and what a cool job you have! Thanks for the insights…I will look at your website.

Plowboy…I was struck by your father’s story…thanks for sharing it. On the way home yesterday, I told my brother (who loves the competition…we took 3rd place in quebec) that I would not take Manny back to that particular competition, as it was just too stressful for us both (Manny and me, that is) and he totally understood. One of the reasons I skijor is to have fun with my family who are not really horse people. But over the past few years, they have become more understanding of the connection I have with my horses and they now understand that a horse is not a snowmobile or a tractor…that’s progress, in my opinion.

Becorson, you have hit the nail! Sometimes there are expections, that develope into an agenda without much force. We find ourselves in the most unusual situations…mostly as those planning the interaction have no clue how a horse see’s the world. I am interested to hear how these situations bear out and what people do. As a rider I feel insulated from disaster to an extent….I can ride most of what Manny can dish out and if I fall or bail its just me and my bruised ego (or broken arm). But if I were pulling a sleighful of people and realized I am having trouble..what do you do? Do you set it up so the horse has no choice but to comply (reads big load) or do you bail on the job and work on the behavior?

Thanks again for everyone’s insight…this is a really cool place to learn.

[lifehorsequine.org]

Shakespeare hit the nail on the head.
And I’m gonna relay a story here that is mostly true, which really happened and I wrote. So you can ask yourself again when you are done reading it about bailing. Enjoy…sjd.

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To Bail or Not To Bail

The Wells Fargo wagon clops by the door of my shop every day. As regular as Old Faithful, about every twenty two minutes. I never get tired of hearing the four beat size 9 irons hit the ground as they announce the coaches arrival.

Tourists find themselves looking back in time on several different wild west coach rides here in the hole, wheels a squeekin and them rockin to and fro like a sideways porch swing. As they look over their shoulder, down the paved streets and up to the mountaintops, they imagine this to be the real deal. After they have their fifteen minutes of goin back in time, they get to clomp around on our wooden sidewalks and continue dreamin.

The big Belgians that pull the coaches seem quiet enough and not too bored with their job. Everything seems to run like clockwork every day, another set of tourists every twenty two minutes and another turn around town layin down iron on ceement.

Cept for one day. Everything went haywire. One of them coaches took off like crazy. You could hear the tourists screamin like banshees, hear leather flappin and smell the coach wheels sparkin, makin turns a coach ain’t supposed to make, at least not in these times, and not on ceement.

There was no steering, no stoppin and no idea if a body would come out unharmed yet alive when they came flyin past the door. And Wild Belgians at full speed can make a mess of ceement. The coach driver was doin the best she could, puttin her whole body weight on one foot, slammin on what was left of the brakes and pullin with all her might on the one long rein that was the only thing between her and what might be the last time she saw a buggy seat.

Later she told me there was only one thing left to do.

“Did ya bail,” I asked?

“I thought about it, but then I thought, howm I gonna get all these folks off here with me?”

She had a point.

The only thing left to do, she said, was tellm to sit down, hold tight and don’t look. Then she headed for the most solid and biggest object she could. Drivin with one rein at bein-chased-by-invisible- elephants speed, Miss Pia turned that team towards a big white delivery truck and told em to get on.

What happened was a miracle. The team listened to her direction, all be it strange, and stopped just in time not to bury themselves and everyone else into the side of that truck.

I was tuckered out hearin the story and Miss Pia was just as tuckered tellin me. But I have remembered it and what Miss Pia did to this day and try and think of it when I’m feelin like one of them Belgians bein spooked by nothin anyone could ever determine to be real.

The End.
sjdortch copyright LIVE IMAGE INK/LIFEHORSEQUINE 2009

[Carl Russell]

Several years ago I decided that after driving some one else’s sleigh ride horses that I was only going to use my horses for working purposes. I realize many people truly enjoy getting out and interfacing with the public with their animals. It clearly wasn’t for me.

That being said, I have driven them to town to the grain store etc. For a couple of years I did drive them in the fourth of July parade to promote some local agricultural initiatives. I always felt weird, because I had already decided that that sort of thing was not for me. They always performed perfectly, but I was always on guard, trying to balance my conscious uncertainty, with the need to be a calm and confident leader. The last year, as I was entering down town Randolph, looking out at a sea of hundreds of people standing ten deep between the store fronts and the street, it really sank in, “This is so unfair to these horses”. I had ultimate confidence in my relationship with the animals, but I had absolutely no control over any one of those people, and I had no back-out, no way to protect the working relationship. Everything about that situation was to meet the expectations of some one else.

We finished the parade, and I haven’t taken them off the farm except to go to a log job since. I do however take them from time to time to participate in work days, and educational workshops, where we are doing meaningful work, which i can buy into, and I can set expectations on the people involved, in stead of the other way around.

Just my experience, Carl

[Robert MoonShadow]

Carl ~ I admire the way you look out for your horses – before they need it “at the moment”… dealing with the ‘what ifs’ ahead of time is a sign of good leadership. Part of what I’ll be doing {eventually} with my donkeys, is public relations… and also delivering food donations to the domestic violence shelter –> not as “PR”, but just a way to put some laughter in the hearts of the children. I believe that if you can make a child laugh, you can usually find their mother smiling, too. {I refuse to let that type of man have the last word}. So, I realize that I need to make very sure that my donks learn to enjoy children, so that they (the donkeys) feel comfortable & safe, and even have fun, too. As you pointed out: it’s what a leader does. It helps that donkeys are so kid-oriented… and from what I understand, the big drafts are, too.

[Rod]

Carl

My limited experience agrees with what you wrote. I enjoy having friends admire my well trained team and taking them for rides around the farm but feel much more in sinc. with them when the horses are doing useful work. I know it’s not the same for everyone and some really enjoy pleasure driving and all that does into it but for me I like to see my boys put their shoulders into the harnesses and accomplish something with all their strength. I think they like it better also.

[jen judkins]

@Carl Russell 5865 wrote:

They always performed perfectly, but I was always on guard, trying to balance my conscious uncertainty, with the need to be a calm and confident leader. The last year, as I was entering down town Randolph, looking out at a sea of hundreds of people standing ten deep between the store fronts and the street, it really sank in, “This is so unfair to these horses”. I had ultimate confidence in my relationship with the animals, but I had absolutely no control over any one of those people, and I had no back-out, no way to protect the working relationship. Everything about that situation was to meet the expectations of some one else.

Yep, That pretty much sums up my feelings about galloping in the snow….in the middle of a carnival…..in a large city:eek:. Will add that to my (now lengthy) list of ‘been there, done that’ things to avoid in the future.

Manny and I did one parade many years ago. The idiots who organized the parade, put the fire trucks (with sirens and lights on full tilt) behind the horses! Manny piaffed his way through that parade (bless his heart), and I spent the whole time worrying that some kid would run out in the street to visit and push him right over the edge. We survived that, but I doubt he would think me a valuable leader if we did it again:rolleyes:.

[Does’ Leap]

Many of my early mistakes with my horses (it’s only been a 1.5 years) revolved around doing too much too fast. I had a notion (agenda) about what I wanted to get done and didn’t take into consideration whether my horses (and I) were ready. This lead to some serious setbacks which resulted in us going back to ground zero and doing some of the training strategies Don and others have mentioned (round pen, rope halter, yielding, etc.) even though I bought my horses well trained. This helped establish a healthy working relationship that has grown enormously ever since.

I still have an agenda, but it is not task oriented. Rather the new agenda is how we (horses and I) move forward together as a team with mutual trust and respect. There are times when I still ask too much, but I am quick to re-assess and alter my plan if necessary. The result of my new approach has been a better relationship with my horses and our ability to accomplish tasks I never would have dreamed of a year ago. This winter these new accomplishments are pulling logs up hill out of tight places. Our horses were never used in the woods so the saw, snapping branches, and other stimuli were nerve-racking for them. The horses vary their pace beautifully (stepping slowly through tight places and giving it their all when it comes time to pull), standing quietly, and doing what is asked. This is commonplace for loggers like Carl and others but big steps for my horses and me.

George

[jen judkins]

@Does’ Leap 5884 wrote:

I still have an agenda, but it is not task oriented. Rather the new agenda is how we (horses and I) move forward together as a team with mutual trust and respect. There are times when I still ask too much, but I am quick to re-assess and alter my plan if necessary.

George, this is definately where I get into trouble. I’m a completely task-oriented person and I struggle constantly to keep relationships in balance with my need to ‘do stuff’. I think one of the reasons horses have been so good for me in other parts of my life are that they so clearly NOT task oriented, so in dealing with them I can’t use the old task oriented agenda and be successful. Its still a struggle for me at times.

[Plowboy]

Yesterday my Dad went up to the big field to plow. It was windy hear so the horses were more alert than usual. He had our Belgian Buddy, Belle our more nervous mare, and Dixie her laid back coming 4 daughter. He had to ground drive them about a 1/4 mile to the plow. On his way up to the field the city guys that bought the field across the road started shooting targets with their assault rifles. He got hooked ok but all the horses weren’t paying attention when he went to start them. Belle frustrated because the plow didn’t move reared up and when she came down somehow broke the snap on Dixies quarter strap. He thought about quiting right there but decided to tie up the quarter strap and plow. They got used to the bursts of gunfire and he got alot of sod plowed. I’m sure at first he wanted to tie up the horses and go over and smash their guns into little pieces but instead he went to work just like he planned. He ignored the shots and after a while so did the horses. I guess if you want to get something done you have to work past an obstacle once in a while. Last night he felt like he had a good day and the horses looked content.

[OldKat]

Plowboy’s post gave me a reason to review this whole thread. Wow, it was a really good one.

It is funny, but I had never noticed the wind bothering my horses until recently. We have had a really dry spring (and winter, fall, summer, etc, etc) with a lot of gusty wind. It surely does seem to have a less than positive impact on the way the horses respond to me. Good observation Dennis.

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