Would a draft horsebe easyer to train

[Eli]

I was reading and one school of thought is my horse is probably rearing because she feels trapped. Eli

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Eli, What other schools of though have you found for why she is rearing? Horses with these reactions are tricky to train. We need to do two things simultaneously that are some what counter to each other. We need to think clearly about the horses reactions, what are the causes? How strong of a reaction is it? Do these reactions signal something to work through, or something to back away from? I think you are asking your self all these questions. As a horse trainer, the second part of this is knowing what you want the horse to be doing at that moment, and what you can do to make that happen. This is not so difficult with a horse that is basically calm and relaxed and we are just slowly introducing one new thing after another, making sure they have time to absorb each one.

With a horse that is reacting (rearing, trying to run, sudden stop, won’t move when asked) it is not so simple. If it were me, I have a vision fixed in my head of the calm, relaxed and alert horse. Everything I do is geared toward bringing this out. Lunging a horse until it is sweaty is making a horse tired, and possibly nervous, not calm and relaxed, so for me it won’t help me get what I want. I hope you realize none of us are in a very good position to give you advice. Where I standing there watching I would give you my opinion in a heart beat, but your judgement will decide how, when to proceed.

As I suggested in my first sentence the trick is: do I focus my attention on her reactions, or do I focus on my intentions for what I want her to be doing / acting? It is hard to describe how these actions are counter to each other. For example she is rearing and I am saying whoa, whoa. When she is stops rearing she is moving, but faster than I wanted, but at least we are not rearing anymore. If I ignore her reactions and they are bad enough someone could get hurt; but if I pay too much attention to her behavior I can’t signal the true reactions / behavior I want; ie. instead of rearing, standing, instead of bolting or running, walking.

[Eli]

Now that I slept on it I need to get her relaxed. I think I will warm her up harness her and hook to the cart then brush her and talk to her and get her to relax and get the feel of the cart with out the stress of pulling it then unhook her groom her then put her away this should help with any anxiety the cart is causing . I almost never lunge my horse on a long line I usually lunge for a few minuets changing direction often to get them thinking. When we trained her to ride she was taught to yeald to pressure you can basically move her in any direction with one finger so pulling goes against everything we have taught her for the last year. This my tentative plan let me know what you think. Thank You. Eli.
P.S. I have to remember that progress isn’t measured by how far I get the horse to move but by how prepared she is to move. I am training a horse not moving a cart.

[Andy Carson]

Hmmm… Rearing is not cute… When a horse is scared or nervous, I expect them to want to go forward. This has been a very natural response that is consistant with every horse I have worked with. If they are scared/nervous but DON’T want to go forward, I investigate what is blocking them very carefully. Horses that are scared but don’t have anywhere to go and nothing to do can as dangerous as a stick of dynamite. I like whipping a horse in this situation about as much as I like tapping on a stick of dynamite (I don’t like either!). If the harness is adjusted improperly, pulling might be uncomfortable and might be acting as a physical block. This is why I thought this was a good thing to check. It might also be that when you drive, you put more pressure on the bit than when you ride. The horse might be feeling “stop” in it’s mouth, but “go” from your voice or buggy whip and might rear as a response. How else can a horse move it’s butt forward and get it’s head back? I done some driving with my wifes arab/andalusian and was lucky that this horse had dressage training and was used to working on the bit (rather than working with loose reins). Personally, I like to work with a horse that is on the bit. I dont like them pulling the reins out of my hands, but to always have a solid but gentle contact. There are schools of thought that drive with less contact. I find that less contact reduces my ability to accurately and instantly communicate, but I have not spent much time trying to work with this technique. If this is your goal, you had better talk to someone else…

[Carl Russell]

@Eli 38671 wrote:

Now that I slept on it I need to get her relaxed. I think I will warm her up harness her and hook to the cart then brush her and talk to her and get her to relax and get the feel of the cart with out the stress of pulling it then unhook her groom her then put her away this should help with any anxiety the cart is causing . I almost never lunge my horse on a long line I usually lunge for a few minuets changing direction often to get them thinking. When we trained her to ride she was taught to yeald to pressure you can basically move her in any direction with one finger so pulling goes against everything we have taught her for the last year. This my tentative plan let me know what you think. Thank You. Eli.
P.S. I have to remember that progress isn’t measured by how far I get the horse to move but by how prepared she is to move. I am training a horse not moving a cart.

I am just going to give some feed-back on what I am reading here…

I agree that you need to get her relaxed. I see no reason why there should be stress associated with pulling the cart, other than you apparently are willing to accept that concept, and could be bringing that to the equation.

Brushing, I think should be done before harnessing, not only as a way of calming, but as a way to revisit all of her vulnerable points….. reinforcing trust. Getting her to stand quietly hitched to the conveyance will teach her nothing about moving it.

I also think that working your horse should not be to get her thinking, but to get her following your lead. If you are leaving it up to her to intellectualize the situation, you are inadvertently abdicating a portion of your leadership.

She may well yield to pressure, but that is against all of her instinctual motivations. There should be an acknowledgement of this by reward.

She wants to move. She needs to move. This is her innate drive. I think she does not trust that she has permission to move forward. Possibly because she can’t differentiate between the pressure of your initiative, and the reward for allowing it.

Pressure and release. Pressure for action, release for reward. This should translate to bit pressure as well as finger pressure in moving. Contact on the bit for moving forward, released contact to stand. Holding a horse back to keep them from moving is a common tendency, but sends a deeply confusing message to the animal.

Moreover, I think it is important to differentiate between training a horse, and communicating with a horse. If you take this on as an exercise in getting a horse accustomed to the components of the situation, as an intellectual exercise for her, you will not make as much headway as if you use it as an exercise in communication. Getting the horse to trust your leadership, you ability to communicate effectively with her, so that she follows you into any situation of your choosing, it what I believe the objective should be.

Keep up the good work, Carl

[paintpony]

I have to agree with what countymouse and carl have both said. They are much more clear than I could ever be.

[Eli]

Is it possible the rearing is in response to getting the comand to walk on but being taught to yeald to pressure and when the colar gets tight she feels she is not supposed to push into pressure and feels trapped. The horse is not super nervous or trying to get away when i stop her with the woa comand and the lines/bit she stops easily. It’s when I sad walk on and made the kiss sound she reared up. When I lead her she will pull more then when I drive her.
I think Carl hit the nail on the head I have been letting scarlet think her way through things in stead of leading her through them. I have been caught up in getting her 100% comfortable with everything that I was letting go of to much leadership. Thank you for all your help and encourage ment. Eli

[paintpony]

I would say no because you have said she has pulled pipes, tires, etc. If she was yielding to pressure, then she would have been doing this all along.

Does the collar fit properly? Has she really pulled something heavy enough to put weight on the collar? Did that bother her? Is the back pad putting pressure on her spine?

After having checked to make sure she is in no pain. And checked to make sure she understands the walk on cue away from the cart. Try having her drag something like a log. Does she rear up? Does she stop pulling?

If she can pull a log, she can pull a cart. More than likely, it’s that you are anxious and are hanging on to her head in anticapition that shes going to run. Which was the whole point of using a truck in front of her to keep her moving forward but still in control without hanging on her face.

I hope I’m being helpful.

[Eli]

I went out after my post and harnessed gypsy our morgan who has been driving for 20 years and pulled on the traces and she held and leaned into it a little. Then a little later I had scarlet harnessed I pulled on the traces and she backed up then I held onto them and gave the comand to walk on and when she bumped the end she stopped and stepped around nervously. I don’t know if this helps but I was curious. Every thing I pulled was pretty light. I’m will try a little heavier log 100 lbs or so and se if this matters. I didn’t hook her but I ground drove her around a wile then put her away she did real good best time ever. And I appreciate all the input I’m sure we will get this figured out. Thanks Eli

[Eli]

Going to work with my horse, my daughter and I are going to work my horse in the arena today. She told me to watch the Nate Bowers DVD it explaness everything. So I’m watching the DVD then going to work.

[fogish]

Keep us up to date. It sounds like the pressure from the traces is a big sticking point for her.

[Eli]

We got her harnessed up and I had to go load a milling machine and lath. So my daughter worked with her and then led her in harness to work the arena she pulled the 4 foot spike drag but she didn’t use the lined because she didn’t feel comfortable. I think I would have driven her but I was not home so Im glad she got it done. I will probably harness her later and pull some logs and stuff. Eli

[Eli]

I whimped out and hitched Gypsy our 22 year morgan Morgan to the cart today. I just wanted to go for a drive without a fight. Didn’t help Scarlets training at all but I had fun and Gypsy needs to get out too. Drove about 2 miles on the snowmobile trail not sure if this is legal but it worked good. The only snowmobile I met gave me a thumbs up so all is good. Tomorrow won’t be much better having a sleding party at the ridge with my nieces and nephews and their kids. Eli

[Eli]

Bach to work with scarlet. Trying a new bit went from a broken snaffle to s straight bar snaffle. Sure seems to be better dosent throw her head around and stands much better after she stops. She stopped at the end of the drive way and kocked her hip and relaxed. It must be the million dollar bit that I got in a couple boxes of harness parts I got for $20. I guess time will tell. Eli

[grey]

When Scarlet is hitched in the cart, make sure there isn’t a lot of “slop” or “play” in how tightly she is hitched. What I mean is, when she takes a step and stops, the breeching shouldn’t abruptly goose her in the rump. It should be snug enough already that there is already a little bit of contact against her rump while she is actively pulling the cart. Having the britchen come up against her rump suddenly when she stops can goose her forward in a rush. Then they get trapped into this cycle of rush, stop, rush, stop. Only time and experience will really solve this because there isn’t any way to accurately simulate the sensation of the britchen coming up snug against the rump like that.

It can be dangerous to drive a green, hitched horse from the ground. If she hops forward, she can have the lines out of your hand in a heartbeat and then it’s off to the races. We had a cautionary tale here on the board about that very thing not too long ago.

[Author]

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