DAPNET Forums Archive › Forums › Draft Animal Power › Training Working Animals › Training Horses and/or Mules › Buck Back Straps
- This topic has 22 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 7 months ago by Ed Thayer.
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- January 21, 2014 at 8:43 am #82174Ed ThayerParticipant
I have been working my belgian and our neighbors Canadian for about a month now. They do the job but I have trouble keeping the belgian in stride with the other horse. I was considering using a buck back strap on him from the halter under the bridle to the other horses single tree. If I understand correctly, this should put pressure on the nose of the belgian when he tries to get ahead of the team mate.
The Canadian is an older horse but seems willing, so I am not sure if he is being lazy or just at his limits considering his age. I find myself using way more line pressure on the team than when I work my Belgian alone.
Both horses are using the same harness and bridle, bit they use when driven single, so I am not convinced it that is an issue. They do seem to get better paced the longer they work.
Also, in one of the videos I posted, it was suggested my Belgian is not at ease because he has his toung out all the time. He has done this since I have owned him. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Ed
January 21, 2014 at 7:33 pm #82183LongViewFarmParticipantI used a buckback strap on Zeke, my more forward horse. I found that he just tucked his nose right down and kept going. Maybe work with a heavier load early on. I found that I could vary the pressure with my foot sometimes, but then driving gets a little complicated. 😉
January 21, 2014 at 8:07 pm #82184dominiquer60ModeratorIt was suggested to us by some hitch folks to do this and it seems to work for us when we use it. When they are going really uneven try to get them in step with your hands. I will reference a “Centered Riding” illustration, picture the lines in your hands as two baby birds or other vulnerable little animals, you want to hold onto them without crushing them, and without letting them go. Now picture a see saw action with your hands, but very slight and gentle with your hands, this action should be at a pace that you want them at. After a bit of all of you getting used to this, you will hopefully see them come into cadence together. It won’t work 100% of the time, but the more you get used to it, the easier it gets. You may need to talk Ozzie down and encourage the Canadian to step up a bit to make it work.
I find it most useful here when one horse is a little hyper and the other not. I can just quietly direct them to a pace that I want them to travel at. It comes in handy around tight turns too. Just remember it is very subtle, not like using a wire saw and even softer than milking a cow, it is done right when no one can see you doing it.
January 21, 2014 at 8:59 pm #82187JayParticipantI like Erika’s description of the action. I second it. Jay
January 22, 2014 at 5:59 am #82193Carl RussellModeratorI think this speaks to the dichotomy of perspectives that raise their heads time and time again for us as we work to improve our skills as teamsters.
Are we trying to get the horse to figure out the situation, through gizmos, restrictions, exhaustion, desensitization, or conditioning?
Or are trying to develop ongoing communication to direct the animals into and through each new situation?
I see the buck-rope as part of the first solution. I see Erika’s comment as part of the second.
Some horses will calm down all on their own, falling into habitual action with only minimal guidance, but as I have written before they then tend to also not take much guidance very well either. However most horses are actually looking for guidance, or at the very least demonstrative communication.
One challenge we are faced with when driving teams is the inter communication between horses. This is where Erika’s comment is so important. Rather than letting them work it out between themselves, we need to step in and guide them both more actively.
I have had a similar problem with my blind mare, who was so tuned into me that she was mentally (and physically) two steps ahead of my gelding. This was disturbing to the gelding. At first I thought it was just that he was lazy, but eventually figured out that he was actually responding to her heightened sense of confidence. He was not getting the subtle signals that she was picking up on, so he was confused about what was expected from him, and he was focusing more on her than on me. I had to find a way to drive him so that he could be up to speed with her, and confident in my leadership.
Remember the actions of these animals are more about what we are not doing than they are about some prethought on their part.
Carl
January 22, 2014 at 6:37 am #82194LongViewFarmParticipantI found that I did not want to keep up using the buckback strap. I was told to give it time, but did not see it changing the horse’s behavior, and the pressure needed to send a signal seemed to much to me. I let it go pretty quick, as I realized you can’t force the horse to do what you want.
Have you tried a strap from the side of the evener on the forward horse to the implement? If they are forward they carry more weight, and hopefully learn that walking even is less work.January 22, 2014 at 8:34 am #82195Ed ThayerParticipantThanks for the feedback. I had not considered Carl’s thoughts about my Belgian being more in tune with me than the other horse. That makes some sense considering 99 percent of the time I work him single. My horse may actually be reacting to my commands as he is supposed too while the other horse is confused as a result of my inability to communicate with him effectively.
Clearly I have some work to do and I like a challenge.
Ed
January 23, 2014 at 5:32 am #82201Donn HewesKeymasterIt is all ways a challenge to get two individuals work together. Some take to it easier than others, and it is often one of the reasons we see many animals working with the same partner on the same side for many years. I think horses with remarkably different bodies, head carriage, and attitudes can be especially hard. Ultimately I think it is as described above; getting and maintaining communication with both animals simultaneously. If you look at the thread “matching the unmatched team” you can see some of the things I have done that bring these horses closer together. Once they are closer together I have found it is easier to use my hands / line skills to have them responding equally to my directions as I want.
In the one horse in front, one in back situation (very common I think) we often assume one is eager to work and the other is not. Usually I think trying to get away from each other (keep an eye on you) is a better description of what is going on. Working the animals single will usually demonstrate that both are willing to work. This is why I work to get them comfortable and “in the right ball park”, now they can learn to work side by side.
I used the buck back a few times several years ago. I came to see it as only a tool that helped prevent a runaway, not really a tool to teach driving to a horse. As a safety feature intended to prevent runaways it had several draw backs. It was depending on the other horse to respond in a certain way, it depended some what on how heavy the implement used was. I can’y say I would never use one again; just not sure when.
As with most things, there is always more than one way to see something. Buck backs and systems very similar are or were often used to drive many of the horses in a large hitch. i just like to remind myself of all the history of our craft.
January 23, 2014 at 6:37 am #82202Ed ThayerParticipantI just read the other thread, lots of good information in both. I am going to pick up a lever bit and try that along with the other suggestions of see sawing the lines and communicating better with the team.
Ed
January 23, 2014 at 8:15 am #82204carl nyParticipantI don’t believe in “see sawing”, except maybe in an emergency. That being said, It might be ok in a very light pressure/release type of thing. I guess that when I hear “see sawing” I think of yanking back and forth really hard. JMHO
carl ny
January 23, 2014 at 9:41 am #82205Ed ThayerParticipantCarl,
I was referring to Erika’s comments above. Slight, gentle pressure on the bit in cadence with the tempo I wish them to travel at.
Ed
January 23, 2014 at 4:59 pm #82206carl nyParticipantEd;
I read Erika’s post and new what you meant. I guess it was just the term “see sawing” that got me. First thing that came to mind was some old teamster sawing back and forth with all his might and yelling at the top of his lungs trying to stop a team. I wish I could come up with a better term but I really can’t think of one.
carl ny
January 24, 2014 at 2:04 pm #82211dominiquer60ModeratorAgreed Carl (NY) See sawing is a common term for a runaway problem. I was having trouble illustrating my technique with out it. Maybe if we sleep on it we can think of a good term, it is really just a slightly specialized give and take of the tension.
Great day to be in the woods, off to harness up 🙂
January 24, 2014 at 3:41 pm #82212Carl RussellModeratorRegulated lateral pulsations….
January 24, 2014 at 4:52 pm #82214carl nyParticipantHey other Carl, that sounds like a good one, RLP’s…I was thing something like alternating pulsation but that is what see sawing is, I never thought of putting regulated in front of it. RLP sounds good.
carl ny
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