[416Jonny]

If you’re stuck within the confines of a conventional dairy, then use the most time honored of conventional dairy solutions. A hard crack with a 2×4 (may be substituted for a ball pein hammer) between the eyes seems to be the industry standard. Must be some sort of intensive management practice.

*note, I don’t approve of beating livestock. Just eating them.*

[416Jonny]

I would say it sounds like time for some hamburger, as well.

On a more serious note, if this cow has already killed 2 heifers, weither these animals were for beef (big loss) or dairy (not quite so huge, but still big), I’d have a hard time justifying keeping this cow around. Seriously, if you were depending on that stock for replacement or expansion, that cow I would imagine just cost you big time. I don’t know how much you value this animal, but my vote is the meat grinder.

Let us know how she tastes. 😉

Jonny B.

[416Jonny]

You know what’s a great horse? Belgian/Percheron crosses. I think they look a lot like some of the older draft breeds.

Although there is this lady up the road that bought one of the Myer’s Shire offspring that I would love to have. He’s a 4 year old that has had some serious training. It didn’t come out untill I took control over the lady that was letting this enormous creature walk all over her. Picks his feet up perfect, doesn’t have a hateful bone in his body. What a sweet boy. Can’t wait for his owner to get sick of him.

Better just bide my time. Maybe this economic down turn is a perfect opportunity……

Jonny B.

[416Jonny]

I’m not sure if this qoute fits exactly to what we’re talking about, but I always enjoy reading Gene Logsdon, so here we go:

“The problem I fear is that while we are condemned by the economics of money greed, or changing markets, or weather patterns, to continue the inexorable cycles of small and large, boom and bust, consolidation and dispersal, the power of wealth solidified in the current cycle will try to stop the wheel of history from turning to the next cycle. Expect a vigorous effort on the part of the agribusiness oligarchy, in cahoots with a suppliant government, to prolong the bonanza farm consolidation of today as long as it can. Some of this futility will be justified to prevent a period of chaos in readjustment, just as the futile attempt to “save the family farm” of the last cycle was justified for a similiar reason. But prolonging the end of the current cycle of consolidated power will be much more potentially dangerous because of those being “helped” will not be family farmers but the wealthy classes who need no help. Expect the power structure to continue the present policy of giving welfare capital shamelessly to the rich in the name of saving society from starvation. Expect it to continue legal favoristism to the food monopolies.”

From “Living at Nature’s Place”.

Part of our current economic “crash” has to do alot with stretching ourselves beyond all reason. As far as the auto industry (something I have some exposure to) goes, the manufacturers have some amazing restrictions to smash themselves into. Between safety, emissions, CAFE compliance, retirement payments, insurance, depreciating infrastructure, competition with other manufacturers, increased consumer expectations and any other weight that can be thrown on top of them. The only way out from under this for them is to sell more vehicles. In the late 1980’s the automaker’s pushed leasing programs like it was the cool thing to do. Then in the early and mid 1990’s the automakers were now having to compete with a HUGE influx of perfectly good used cars left over from lease deals.

Things are going to change, in one way or another. Welfare programs for corporations (was there gonna be any free market in there?) is getting in the way of the ebb and flow of an economy. The worse that could happen is if Toyota, Subaru, BMW, Honda or anyother foreign manufacturer survived the mess. They are the only one’s building cars in America anymore. Ford will probably survive, only on account of the fact that they build most of their cars in Brazil, in the most automated facility the industry has.

But then again, I don’t want everything to go to hell either. My cousin Robin is 13 with diabetes, glasses, braces and an unconfirmed gluten allergy. I don’t want to see her get in trouble because of the inability to recieve enough medical care. Even though I think it’s good to keep kids off the TV umbilical cord, I don’t want any kids to starve, either. These kinds of situation are of course when family and friends come together to help.

I’ve heard it said that adversity doesn’t build character, it merely reveils it.

When I first came down to the bedroom of Massachussetts, I was taken back by the kids that grew up in the area. They seemed oblivious of the world around them. How they get fed, how they get warm, how they stay out of the weather, etc. etc.

I can’t wait to get out of this place. If anyone has ever spent any time on Rt. 1, “the automile”, you know what I’m talking about. It’s an economic anomoly. It’s all of 12 something miles of car dealerships, box stores, chain restaurants, office parks and other commercial enterprises. This whole place will die once the economy tanks. It doesn’t even deserve to exist.

Oh, well, I’m sick and missed out on New Years, so I think I’ll try to keep some of that rambling to myself now.

Jonny B.

[416Jonny]

I can’t speak for having larger percentages of horned cattle, but having watched Erik Andrus’ bovines, I say no.

I think alot of the control/dominance behavior in livestock comes from the perception of superiority or danger.

Peanut (the dairy/beef cross) is the only cow with horns and she is constantly being pushed around by the polled Angus. Although she get’s a few good shots in every now and then.

For example, a dog (just about any size) with the courage to face down animals many times their size will move them around with relative ease. While Peanut has a mean set of horns and occasionally the attitude to match, the resident English shepard will move her and the Angus around. Although that get’s into the predator/prey relationship, it’s still the perception of danger.

I don’t like horned critters. Farming is dangerous enough with out animate spikey objects moving around. There are plenty of people that will tell me otherwise, but I would just as soon not work with horned cattle. They can beat me with horns, but I’ve still got a .416 Rigby Ruger Mark II and a meat grinder :-).

Jonny B.

[416Jonny]

I gotta tell ya Carl, having worked for the government for longer than I would have liked, no one ever said you had to know what you’re doing in order to make executive decisions.

I came under the impression a little while back while working for Erik Andrus that my best chance to succeed in this world is if one of two things happened. If things go a whole lot better, I could work away to afford to slowly build my farm next door to Erik. You know, have all the neat toys.

The other option would be to have the whole system collapse. I have amassed quite a collection of skills that haven’t applied a great deal to modern life, but turns out in survivial situations I can hold my own with some of the best out there.

I just wish we could take this thing off life support and let the free market have a chance to work. Doesn’t sound like our “free market” has done us much good so far. I would rather see us have to work through some hard times and end up with some new (depending on your point of view) and different opportunities, than drag our feet around in some sort of vague national welfare.

Just remeber, the CEO’s of Chrysler and GM make roughly 23 million a year each. The CEO of Toyota makes just over 120K a year. They aren’t hurting that badly, they just have rather skewed senses of entitlement. In 1960, the CEO of GM made only 20K a year more than the highest paid line worker.

People will always need water, food, shelter and fuel. If we can cover those four things, we’ll always have work, or atleast a way to survive.

I spent a year in Iraq drinking piss warm water, eating MRE’s, sleeping in a cot under a tin roof and stinking like diesel to stay warm during the winter. I had it good.

At some point, it’s gotta fail. Maybe not this rescession, but soon enough. It may all turn out to be a great opportunity for those of us prepared, either through skill sets or infrastructure.

Just a thought.

Oh, yeah, Happy New Year!

Jonny B.

[416Jonny]

If you’re going to make a tongue out of metal, 2″ square tubing (1/8″ wall) fits nicely into a number of accessories. Erik Andrus and I put together a sled with an articulating pole that moves around by using that tubing, a trailer coupling and a 2″ ball attached to a metal plate lag screwed into a central beam. I think this design would be nice for horses that don’t like to step over a tall tongue, just lay it on the ground and then clip it on with the neck yoke attached.

If you’re making a heavy duty implement, many bits and pieces can fit 2 1/2″ square tubing as well.

You can also save a little bit of a headache if you have the hardware you’ll use first. It’s easier to fit the wood to the hardware than the hardware to the wood.

Just a thought.

[416Jonny]

Well Jason, I saw the commercial for it earlier that day and said to myself: “I’m gonna watch that!”

While I watched the show, I got to thinking about what everyone on the forum would be thinking!

You certainly pointed out a lot of what I was thinking, but couldn’t quite get into coherent sentences. It just felt wrong watching it. I’m a fan of some good ol’ boys getting work done, but it seemed like I was watching a petting zoo with endangered species. In Manhattan.

“Oooooo….look at the loggers, they’re using mules! Awwww…..how quaint!”

Leaves an odd taste in the mouth, like sucking on a greasy penny.

What makes me wonder, is who but us (and those immediatly around us) wants to see the message that needs to get across? This is a point that I think needs to get addressed. There needs to be a certain amount of showmanship in order to get people interested in the content and message. Unfortunatly that show was all hoopla and not much info.

What would it take to get our own message out on tv?

Ideally the loss of access of oil would make what the people on this forum do all the sudden really interesting!

The show was about “extreme loggers” and followed the story of the loggers. Now, if it were “extreme draft animal loggers”, the show would have tanked in my book. Although, as far as being “extreme loggers”, they seemed not all that extreme. Maybe not all that bright, but extreme, no. “Nobody got killed” is something you say to make yourself feel better after a car wreak, not towards something you’re trying to take pride in and make a living. They all seemed like they didn’t really want to be there, except the greenhorn. But my opinion and conclusions are skewed by wanting to see the mules get stuff done, not the loggers.

I was really excited to see the show when the commercials for it were running. The show turned into a let down. The hung up tree got almost as much air time as the mules did.

Shows are made by show biz people, not teamsters (just using the general term, not meaning to exclude the mule and oxen folk out there). It will never look how we want it to. We can try though, right?

[416Jonny]

Oops, left something out.

I’ve told a few people I know about this, so I thought this would be a good place to mention it as well.

The Wild Turkey Federation gives away free oak seedlings to private land owners. You have to be a member ($30), get in touch with them and go from there. This year they gave away between 5,000-10,000 seedlings per state to private land owners.

My uncle also said the American Chestnut Association (I think?) gives away free seedlings as well. Trying to bring them back.

Okay, that’s all. I think……

Jonny B.

[416Jonny]

It’s a very nice machine!

I think there is a lot of equipment out there that could be utilized without needing to run an engine in front of it.

I talked to the hydraulics instructor today about a design and he believed there wasn’t any good reason to not be able to run multiple accumulator circuits to run hydraulic cylinders and motors at the same time. Could open up some new ground for equipment. Hmmmm…..

I was reading through SFJ the other day and I’ve been noticing a disturbing trend in equipment retrofiting. For example, people were fitting taller steel wheels on their horsedrawn mowers under the belief that they were gearing them up, i.e., running the knife bar faster. That is wrong. The knife bar is now moving slower. The larger the diameter the wheel, the slower the shaft is going to turn in terms of RPM. If you were driving the shaft to move the wheel, then yes, you would go faster. Just figured I’d put that out there before anyone bought new wheels under the impression of gaining higher driven RPM’s.

[416Jonny]

I was thinking more along the lines of how much the equipment costs to start with and the up keep that it takes to maintain multiple batteries.

But all is not lost. Part of the weight involed helps traction to run such implements. Either way it takes energy to store up energy to use in another form. Wether it’s hydraulic or electric, it’s going to take power to use.

In a hydraulic system running a positive displacement pump and accumulator, there with be some sort of pressure relief valve that will direct fluid back to the reservior when the system is charged. It’s application is much smoother than that of using an electrical system with a voltage regulator because of it’s ability to meter fluid pressure.

The general electrical charging system is either on or off. When the power bank lowers to the specific point (automotive regulators turn on around 12.45 volts, the industry minimum charge a 12 volt battery should hold on it’s own) the regulator energizes the stator of the alternator creating the magnetic field needed to produce electricity. This causes the alternator to not want to turn at all. To test this, turn an alternator over by by without the field being energized, it’s easy. Energize the alternator then try to turn it over, it’s almost impossible to do by hand.

Both systems create a degree of drag relative to the load. Under serious load conditions that extra weight is a bonus in terms of traction. Another thought is wheel and tire selection. Steel wheels with big evil looking lugs might give you all the traction you’d ever need at the expense of a bumpy ride that shakes your kidneys like a paint shaker if you take off down the road. And your neighbors probably would stop speaking to you (or start for that matter) for tearing up the road.

It wouldn’t be out of the question to retro fit a forecart to accept hydraulics. The three point hitch might be iffy to fabricate if you’ve never done it before.

I once had a thought that you could run various types of implements on hydraulic power using multiple circuits. For example, you could hitch a haybine to the back of the forecart, run a hydraulic motor to turn the PTO shaft and have a seperate circuit to control the cylinder. Running a system like that should carry a larger reservior and a heat exchanger of some sorts.

It’s entirely possible to build one of these systems for much less than it cost to buy something new. I read the cost for some of the hydraulic forecarts and the Yard Hitch and it makes me cringe. I’m poor and don’t really like the idea of paying somebody else a large amount of money if I can build it myself.

Just some more thoughts.

Jonny B.

[416Jonny]

Of course you could do it. You can do just about damned near anything with electricity if you feel like it, or feel like spending the money.

The system would end up working like a hydraulic three point hitch cart (since electricity and water end up acting in very similiar manners) by accumulating energy, either by use of pressure (hydraulic) or voltage (electricity).

There is a system out there that uses a forecart and a special three point trailer behind it that uses electricity, only it gets charged by being plugged in.

Setting up a charging system is beyond simple. Find an alternator that has a built in voltage regulator and a 1/2″ drive pulley. Mount a pulley either to the wheel hub, or if you want a speed multiplier and the base for the forecart, just use a truck axle and bolt the pulley to the pinion flange. Look for Dana built truck axles, since they are built outside of any one manufacturer, they generally have flanges, instead of yokes. One out of a dually rear end will be narrower and usually have deeper gearing.

Not to knock your idea, but why electricity? Given that so many pieces of equipment are already outfitted with hydraulics, why switch to something as fidgity and expensive as electric?

Hitching an electric forecart to one of these implement would require some interesting connections. All would have to be free of dirt and moisture. It would also need a way to control the ground circuit so as not to arc out the system everytime you plugged something in. Not really sure how you would handle the rain. I guess if all you are doing is running a 12 volt system you won’t really get in any serious trouble.

Also, the strain it might put on the batteries could shorten their service life. Changing out those batteries every couple of years wouldn’t be much fun.

I would say that hydraulic accumulater systems are a bit better suited to the farming environment than electricity, but please, don’t let my opinion stop you from building anything, and if you have questions along the way, don’t be afraid to ask.

Jonny B.

[416Jonny]

Hmmmm…..cellulitis? I don’t know about making a horse lame, but the unsightly rash could make a mare not want to be seen in something as skimpy as a harness……

Wikipedia defines it as:

“Cellulitis is an infection of the deep subcutaneous tissue of the skin. Cellulitis can be caused by normal skin flora or by exogenous bacteria, and often occurs where the skin has previously been broken: cracks in the skin, cuts, blisters, burns, insect bites, surgical wounds, or sites of intravenous catheter insertion. The mainstay of therapy remains treatment with appropriate antibiotics. Skin on the face or lower legs is most commonly affected by this infection, though cellulitis can occur on any part of the body.”

The dangers are:

“Horses may acquire cellulitis, usually secondary to wound (which can be extremely small and superficial) or to a deep-tissue infection, such as an abscess or infected bone, tendon sheath, or joint. Cellulitis from a superficial wound will usually create less lameness (grade 1-2 out of 5) than that caused by septic arthritis (grade 4-5 lameness). The horse will exhibit inflammatory edema, producing a hot, painful swelling. this swelling differs from stocking up in that the horse will not display symmetrical swelling in 2 or four legs, but only in one leg.

This swelling begins near the source of infection, but will eventually continue downward the leg. In some cases, the swelling will also travel upward. Treatment includes cleaning the wound and caring for it properly, the administration of NSAIDs, such as phenylbutazone, cold hosing, applying a sweat wrap or a poultice, and mild exercise. Veterinarians may also prescribe antibiotics. Recovery is usually quick and the prognosis is very good if the cellulitis is secondary to skin infection..”

That’s what I came across. I think what they are getting at is that this kinda stuff happens to horses that have already had an injury of some sort.

Jonny B.

[416Jonny]

Drummond, thank you for posting the videos from ISU, I’ve been watching them over and over.

I really like those videos. As a little kid, dad would take my brothers and I out to the family farm during the summer to help with haying. It was some kinda fun being in the hay wagon and trying to dodge the flying hay bales when you’ve go two older (and much bigger) brothers always pushing you in the way of on coming bales. Then of course there was sugaring to be done at the end of winter. I’d get thursty and just drink the sap.

I grew up hearing stories almost exactly like how they talk in those videos. Before my Uncle Joe started cleaning up the barn yard to make way for some huge concrete structure of one sort or another, there was always horse drawn equipment I would play on. I remember one riding cultivator that sat dead in the middle of a patch of burdocks that is now a horizontal bunker silo.

Our family raised Percheron’s for quite a while. Grandpa hated horses. Couldn’t stand ’em. But he always wanted to be a carpenter. Our family had tractors about as early as anybody did at that time in Vermont.

Hearing them talk on those videos just reminds me alot of all the stories I’ve been told. Also reminds me of how hard I’ve had to work to be able to maybe look at farming myself. Being a 24 year old fellow, it’s been really hard to even think about getting into farming anywhere. My family has been in the same spot since 1803, so to them it was just what you did. Farming doesn’t bring the money, glamour or ladies that say, just about any modern job does. Hearing about what everyone on this forum is doing certainly helps keep me thinking positive about the future.

Once again, thanks for posting those videos!

Jonny B.

[416Jonny]

Our next step was the beaters. On the Massey-Harris, the main and top beaters were frozen solid. Things that are rusted solid always kinda make me uneasy. Not gonna lie, if it doesn’t move already, I get a little twinge in the back of my head that says: “I’m gonna be here a while”. Never fear though, because just about anything can be broken loose. In the pictures I’m posting, you’ll see how we went from no movement at all to a pretty smooth action.

When things are covered in rust and won’t move, you need a way to break that connection. A couple of ways to do this include penetrating oil, heat and shock. I put them up in order of chance to mess things up. Oil being the safest (and usually the most effective), heat being not such a great idea on fragile cast iron pieces and shock being just beating on the dang thing to see if movement in another direction can either be a miracle or a disaster. We had to use all three techniques to get the top beater to start moving.

To make a long story short, lots of PB Blaster and turning later, the top beater started moving. More turning and spraying. More movement. I think I see a pattern here. As the beater turned inside the cast iron hubs the scummy rust that was now soaked in Blaster came slowly gooing out of the hubs. More oil. More rusty goo.

If you’re really lucky and have your brain wired on straight (as in, you got to sleep before 12:30am the day that you’re taking off to a part of Vermont you’ve never been to before) you would have noticed those little nifty oil holes in the top of the cast iron hubs. It’s important to note the location of these holes, because it makes your job much easier. It’s also where the oil goes into before each time the manure spreader is used.

Now, the big main beater. It sure is big. It sure doesn’t seem to want to move. Whenever you have something big that doesn’t want to move, one good thing is that you can usually use a bigger form of leverage. In our case, George and I used a 10 or so foot long piece of iron pipe over the end of a monkey wrench. It took both of us to start with to be able to get the beater to turn and in the process the back end of that spreader was probably almost ready to lift off the ground.

The important part is just getting the stuff moving to start with. If it moves, even just a little, the hard part is over.

We needed to build a chain. Agricultural drive chains are easy to assemble and disassemble. Looking inside the joint, the opening in the loop can have one of the corners ground off lightly, turn the other chain a little to where it lines up with the opening in the loop and drive it down with a hammer. Assembling a chain is the opposite. Knock off a corner, line up the next link and drive it into place.

When deciding how long the chain needs to be there are a few considerations. First, these chains are held in place by a tensioner of some sort. If the tensioner is pulled out of place, then the chain can be taken off, or can just fall off in the field. Second is overall tension. When assembling a new chain, you want it as tight as can be installed on the machine! This is because the tensioner can only move so far, as well as preparing for chain stretch. This type of chain stretchs more than just about any type of chain design.

More and more oil. Plenty of turning. After all that and lunch, we were ready to give the machine a test drive. I’m sure some of you dyed in the wool draft animal fans will cringe when I tell you, but we first pulled it with the tractor. Never fear though, this was a safety consideration. There was no seat, no foot boards and no way to attach the horses. So out came the Kubota.

Ahhhh…..the magic is hard to describe. While George’s manure spreader was in pretty good shape to start with, to get it working took a little muscle, a little head scratching and a lot of PB Blaster. Nobody got hurt and we got it to function in a pretty reasonable amount of time. It was a success.

Thanks to George for letting me come out and tinker and thanks to everyone on the forum that is brave enough to engage in draft animal power.

Jonny B.

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