[Gabe Ayers]

“Draft Animal Powered Forestry International” I think including “animal” was what Carl wanted, I agree – if that is what he wanted.

I don’t like any statements that say “appropriate technology”, because it could lead to mechanized equipment being slipped in the back door. Most of the folks that are mechanized equipment think they are doing fine and that is fine, but we want to support our own approach. This group is about animal powered extraction – primarily. I understand that animal powered techniques are definitely appropriate technology, but it is more of a technique than technology.

“To serve as an official body to support collaboration, research and demonstration with all interest groups on the issues of sustainable forestry including: governmental, non governmental organizations (NGO’s), academic institutions, municipalities, private landowners”
(3 votes)

I vote for these two – to get us started, we can refine as we go along if desired and mutually agreeable.

I find this entire cyber way of developing an organization cumbersome and hard to deal with. I think that may limit participation. I know some folks understand all of it very well, but all of us don’t, so that may contribute to limited participation.

I think we should remember that this is or was just an exploratory start up group that would relay our collected thinking to the larger group in a hard copy – written on paper way so we could reach many of the folks that have no idea anyone is working on such an organization to promote and support all of our efforts.

I also experience folks saying “what is an association going to do for me or what will I get out of joining?” and that is a question we should keep in mind when we attempt to grow this group. We have to provide a service (s) to our membership in order to grow.

I have invited – through email the FETCU (sp) to have a reciprocal link with HHFF and there has been no response to date. I suspect the language barrier is a factor. It will take a personal contact to engage all or more of the Europeans apparently.

I also suspect all these groups end up being ran by a core group of highly dedicated individuals and the rest are happy to just do what they do and I understand both positions.

There are my votes and three cents worth.

Thanks Scott – for hanging in there man, let’s keep working on it as we can with who we have on board now. It will grow later if we can craft a useful group.

Sincerely,

[Gabe Ayers]

John,

I visited your site and enjoyed it. Thanks for what you are doing up there and keep up the good work.

We would like to post a reciprocal link to your site on our site – because I don’t believe we can have to many folks willing to offer private instruction in the skills of doing this work safely and efficiently. I would be glad to post a comment on your site giving a recommendation from HHFF that anyone interested in your area (or anywhere) take advantage of your experience, knowledge and willingness to teach. I wasn’t able to get on the site to do that but let me know how we may support your efforts in any way.

Salute,

[Gabe Ayers]

Carl,

One question/thought comes to mind about the ground skidding versus the use of an arch.

When the horse is properly fitted with a d-ring harness the point of draft is kept stable by the belly band, despite the attachment point of the tugs according to Les Barden and our experience. So I wonder how you see that a horse can pull more efficiently when ground skidding instead of using an arch with d-ring harness.

We think of our arch as being a rolling lever. The frame is cantilevered forward and keeps the load lifted as the device is moved forward. This provides tremendous advantage to the animal in applying itself against the resistance of the load, by simply putting much of the weight on the wheels of the arch. The higher point of draft with the double tree being on the top of the platform essentially keeps the rolling lever lifting the object attached to the slot bar by pulling it forward over the arch created by the cantilever.

When it comes to giving all they have, our horses make the same all out effort whenever asked properly and I am not sure how there could be any advantage to ground skidding as it relates to the animals efficiency of using itself. I understand the draft or lift provided by the animals movement forward and the line of draft, but that seems to be less of a concern when using D-Ring despite the high point of draft on the Fisher style arch.

Help me/us understand what you mean sir.

I actually enjoyed the research work by Tim Harrington and associates about measuring resistance using certain devices and situations. Such studies are good for our culture in that they at least formalize many discussions among teamsters. Unlike most research, at least it didn’t end with a statement about requiring more research.

This question/thinking doesn’t suggest or imply that I am against ground skidding, we do it all the time. There are definitely settings that allow wood to be moved quicker and more efficiently using a single horse and ground skidding. We move most of our smaller sized firewood this way and often use a single to set logs out of tight places to the skid trail and the team on the arch to forward out to the landing. It is the bunching and forwarding system approach and the single horse is so quick and good at such movement of wood particularly in tight places. One of the best things about single horse logging on the ground is that there is essentially no skid trail swamping required.

Sincerely,

[Gabe Ayers]

Bumpus,

Thanks for posting this information about “logging jobs” in Va.

I can report that all the Biological Woodmen of HHFF have no problem finding jobs to work on right in their own communities. Communities in this definition means within 25 miles of their homes. That is why we call this form of
community development – community based, because it means not traveling very far to log. In fact most of them have a long waiting list of landowners that want their services as forest managers.

Sincerely,

[Gabe Ayers]

Bumpus,

I’ll take a crack at these definitions, anyone is welcome to jump in or compare what is being said here to what a dictionary says….or what they think.

restorative forestry – since I am pretty much the primary user of this phrase, not to say I coined it or was the first one to use it. I heard it first from a fellow member of the Forest Stewards Guild years ago as a definition of what we were doing and just calling it improvement harvesting at the time. But I am a consistent frequent user of the phrase and we define it as:

A management method that returns to forest to as much like a virgin forest from one single entry or harvesting activity, as possible

community stability –

a community that is stable or doesn’t change much or beyond normal natural
evolution or change or adaptation

implement – to start or apply something, or a tool used to do a job with, like a plow is a tillage implement.

practitioners – people that do things, actually physically practice a skill, task or technique, but could be a doctor, lawyer or anyone doing something

procurer – in forestry it refers to who goes and gets timber or buys timber or finds timber through some form or another, i.e. procurement forester, the one that finds or accesses timber or forestland

healing – well, when you knock the bark off your paw and it gets better -that’s healing….to make something better that was previously ill or sick or not doing well….

taking the worst first – I did coin this phrase and am the first one I ever heard use it. I made it up because conventional foresters would always say no horse logger was any good because they were all high graders, taking the best and leaving the rest. So since this is not what we do, we actually low grade and take the worst individual trees first and after a few harvest rotations the forest is composed of high quality trees and several age ranges. We have this system we developed based upon visible physical indicators of decline or low performance in producing high quality valuable wood. It is called “Nature’s Tree Marking Paint”. The system as adapted to our region has 18 indicators in three categories – 1.) damaged 2.) diseased 3.) inferior. When three indicators occur on a single tree specimen it is ripe for harvest. All the details of this system used by “Biological Woodsmen” are on our web site, (address below).

Biological Woodsman – Title of certification awarded by the board of directors of Healing Harvest Forest Foundation – awarded to people that use the above systems, information, animal power and considerable other skills, to practice restorative forestry. It is not gender specific, there are women that hold the title also.

I know you didn’t ask for that last one, but figured you’d want to know how we came up with it. The point is we are not just “horse loggers” and there are only a few with this certificate. It is awarded by merit – earned as a proven practitioner of restorative forestry.

It was many years ago since you visited our place and things keep growing and changing, so come again sometime if you want to walk some of the woods where this method is practiced.

I think it is important to define ones self, rather than be reduced or marginalized or made less by someone else’s definition. Since there is no clear language in the conventional forestry industry that defines what we do, then we use our own words when we can. Smart landowners – that aren’t desperate for money understand it very well. That is the kind we like and intend to work with.

Regards,

[Gabe Ayers]

Kenneth Moorefield in Cumberland is the closest horse logger I know down there Bumpus. His forestry is not necessarily the sustainable style, but you could have a forester mark trees for you and he may do the work. You could even mark them yourself.

Call me if you want his number.

Regards,

[Gabe Ayers]

Bumpus and any net surfing Lurkers, (hopefully forest landowners or perspective practitioners of restorative forestry)

Here is an attempt to answer some of your questions. Since we have met in the past and you are familiar with the work we do from visiting our farm and forests several years ago, here is how we describe it as beneficial to practice restorative forestry.

The best analogy or comparison is in the paper we have on the HHFF site under the title of: Forestland – A Natural Capital System.

http://healingharvestforestfoundation.org/docs/ForestlandCapitalSystem.doc

This is simply a common sense comparison of a forest with a stock portfolio, with each individual tree being a stock that one is invested in, owns and depends on for future generation of profit or wealth.

Now – first it is understood that privately owned forestland is the property of that owner and they have the inherent right to do with it as they see fit, within common values that forestland holds for the common good or water quality for instance and the use of “best management practices” often required by many states to keep loggers from lowering water quality by their practices.

That being said means that we understand that grandma may be in the hospital and needs allot of money fast, so a heavy harvest of the family woodlot may be the only source of that larger income available to the family.
We understand that reality beyond our advice to be restorative or leaving the best trees for the future. This is why we have a clause in our management agreement that requires that we are given the “first right of refusal” on subsequent or the next harvest. We feel that if a high grade or a clear cut is (determined by the landowner) to be applied on a site we have left the best trees to grow faster, then we should get the benefit of the value “cashed in” from this next harvest. As long as we would give as much for it as a conventional logger then we will do the work and despite it not being our choice of the best management, we want to keep it open to gain from our work and to leave the forest better from our techniques when/if liquidating the stand. In other words if you are going to high grade or clear cut the animals still do a superior job compared to machinery considering the residual condition of the site, including unmarketable trees and soil.

What it comes down to is that the biggest healthy trees are making more money than any other trees and those are the ones to protect and enhance through culture treatment and techniques. So if is a matter of need of income that would determine if anyone takes the long term view and that of leaving a legacy of a continual income producing piece of land or one that will have little value as a forest in the near future. Once a piece has been high graded or clear cut it is indeed in line to be developed for lots and houses as the next way to getting money out of the land. That is the common way most land is conventionally managed. There are all sorts of numbers on how much acreage we lose to development yearly…lots…indeed.

The “sustainable” idea is that folks can get by on a steady smaller stream of income while leaving the forest to increase in value with time. Our approach does allow some wood to be cut every so often on a shorter harvest rotation than high grading or clear cutting or liquidation of the natural capital system that gains value in it’s biological presence. In other words get some money every ten years or all the money once in a lifetime.

This is a very complex subject and maybe this post will grow from others contributions. So I am going to let it be at this for now and see if you have any further questions after reading the link information.

I will say that there are negative results to modern high grading and clear cutting that are not a part of the results from these practices in the past.
In particularly the presence of alien invasive botanicals that are so aggressive that the forest may never regenerate itself again if all the biggest trees are taken at once or the entire forest is removed. This is not information that is part of conventional forestry methods that are being “sold” by public foresters or industrial foresters. It is simply the truth as we experience it in our area.

It is also something to think about as an ethic or principle of doing “good work”. “Good” meaning that the natural resource is not lowered in value from any treatment. That ethic of stewardship or a determination to leave a place better than we found it is not commonly held in our modern world. That is a sorely missing part of modern life. It is the source of human dignity for many that do this work of restorative forestry and also a clear economic strategy
for sound culture that leaves an improving condition for a living system in the future.

Yep, you are right, if you only cut the veneer candidates and big trees, I would call you a high grader.

High grading is the primary reason that conventional foresters prescribe even aged management or clear cutting to cut it all down and let it start over to give fair advantage to shade intolerant species. I reject this notion based on many years experience or regenerating shade intolerant species through single tree selection methods.

Clear cutting speaks for itself. I hear it all the time, “we will just cut those big ones and let the little ones have room to grow”. The fallacy in that reasoning is that the big ones and little ones are often the same ages, so the little ones are little for a reason and don’t always respond to release and in the meantime the heavy disturbance provides an opportunity for disturbance dependent invasive botanicals to get started or shade tolerant species to become dominant in the future forest.

So, that is part of what we think about this and we will see what anyone else says.

Sincerely,

[Gabe Ayers]

Happy looking man and horse.

One suggestion is hook closer to the load. Makes it easier on the horse and a smaller package to move along. We use a slot hook on the single tree and a short choker chain and let the excess not used to wrap around the logs drag behind. Gives you more draft or lift on the front of your logs too. Good job.

[Gabe Ayers]

From the perspective or viewpoint of someone that works in the educational field it is important to educate folks in what we see as being better. That will include expanding the vocabulary of many folks and hopefully expanding their view of what we see as beneficial or not. That is just the nature of education, learning things you didn’t know before. I personally think that is one of the most interesting and rewarding aspects about this lifestyle – one continues to learn…

On the contrary, keeping things simple and not deep is part of keeping things going just like they have been and the result of that are obvious to anyone really looking at the reality of farming or forestry. Sound bites and short cuts usually come up short. So it is hard to teach and make things real simple at the same time. Life is complex. If someone uses words you don’t understand or recognize just look them up in a dictionary. I find that when I go to that trouble I am more likely to remember what the word meant the next time I see it.

Public education is a very important part of what we do. Not that we want to imply or even think that people are dumb, people are not generally dumb. But teaching a new perspective or view of things may require introducing new terms or words as part of the process.

But in reality it is like we say all the time. We think we know the secret to being sustainable…. and the secret is that there is no secret, just hard work investing in the future with all our activities be it in the field or the forest.

Being sustainable is not the easy way, if it were – everyone would already be doing it…. I suspect nobody really knows what is truly sustainable, but many have good ideas and proven records and experience.

It’s like a line in a song we sing around here, “it makes sense that it is the hard way, because it is hard to be sensitive”- from Red Hoss Log, second verse, always used as the closing music on our DVD’s.

That’s my two cents worth that is free, but hopefully priceless…and not worthless.

I think it is important to think critically and analytically, always ask questions, there are on dumb questions, but often dumb answers…. so make anyone that writes/says something you don’t understand, to explain it further, in detail and if it doesn’t make sense to you, ask them to give references to their opinions and positions… and do the homework/research which is how we all may educate ourselves.

Don’t take anyone’s opinion for granted. Don’t worship so called hero’s because the real hero’s don’t want or need to be worshiped. Be yourself and enjoy your own uniqueness and perspective. Get information from as many sources as possible.

Sincerely,

[Gabe Ayers]

go to: http://www.farmingwithhorses.com/

I and J Mfg. site and look it over. We ran a nice four foot rotary mower, cool to hear the whirring and see the grass flat with no engine noise…..

I watched it run two days and it is the best ground drive cart yet. They do have an electric over hydraulic for equipment that raises and lowers with a single cylinder.

Glad you enjoyed the photos, maybe you can make one of the modern animal powered days next year.

Sincerely,

[Gabe Ayers]

I am not whining Joel Harmon, we can sell every piece of this material we can harvest – for good money.

If you had read closely you would notice that this material is used in exterior applications, it doesn’t need to be kiln dried, which makes it much easier for a small producer to produce without expensive infrastructure. It is graded for soundness, but the sourcing method has value, which seems to be the point missed by your comments.

This post was in response to the question of what anybody was doing about new markets. That someone hasn’t heard of something before doesn’t make it open for mean spirited comments.

Why you would attempt to reduce this sharing with such a negative comment is worth questioning? There is no comparison in what we, (as a group) are doing to the implications of your comments.

The disconnect between the green community and real life environmentally sensitive work in the forest is a glaring gap that some of us doing this work today see.

Your sour, bitter response is your burden to bear man. We are happy and rewarded by what we do and we will keep doing it and sharing – despite such attacks by (thankfully) a limited few disgruntled folks on the internet.

So what are your positive alternatives for animal powered forestry people Joel? Doing nothing different keeps us competing with mechanized harvesting, where is that going to get animal powered practitioners?

If they want to work up firewood and create wealth with their efforts what’s wrong with that?

All of us aren’t ready to retire yet and set back and throw stones at anyone doing something we haven’t heard of before.

I would suggest reading closer and if you don’t have something positive to add, then don’t say anything at all.

Tired of cheap shots…..Sincerely,

[Gabe Ayers]

Well, what we are doing is not new to us but may be new to others.

Our work is about selling green certified forest products to customers that are defining the value of their materials as greater because they are produced by certain methods of harvesting. This special market includes architects writing special provisions for certain green certified forest products because they have higher points ratings in the LEEDS green building certification system.

For instance, the higher points are given for the material being sourced from as close to the end use as possible. There are also extra points available to “innovative certification systems”, this means something other than the industry version – Sustainable Forestry Initiative – (SFI) or the big green version of the Forest Stewardship Council (FSC) system. In our case, the community certified DRAFTWOOD system is gaining those innovative certification system points. This is great when we have clients coming to us asking for certain species from our program – with availability being the first concern, quality second and price being next and seldom negotiated, but paid as requested.

The particular species we are harvesting as part of our whole forest approach that we commonly call “Restorative Forestry” – is Black Locust for exterior applications as decking and as a replacement or viable option/alternative for rain forest species with similar characteristics. In our case the black locust is replacing Ipe and bringing the exact same prices or maybe a tiny bit less.

What that really means is that we process this material on site with a local band sawmill, plane it in a local wood working shop and sell it wet or air dried, as it is appropriate to install in an exterior application without being kiln dried. This means we get an order for a certain number of board feet or square feet, price the material accordingly and require 50% deposit to take the order. We don’t take orders for material we don’t have access to in our forested sites available to our management methods and harvesting agreements.

We just happen to be fortunate to have been doing this long enough that we have established a considerable inventory of acreage owned by private individuals that are available for our active management whenever a product we need is ordered and happens to be in their forest.

It works out best for all of us, because we can pay more for the stumpage when we work this way and most are not in a hurry to have their forests harvested in the first place. They have bought into our approach of restorative forestry and will wait for the management to reward them the most and accomplish their objectives of taking the best care of their forest, particularly from an aesthetic view.

So that is what we are doing as a primary income producer, but we also harvest firewood for long length sales locally, we sell some saw logs to conventional markets, for species we have no specific markets for at the moment and no money to invest into value adding and storing while waiting for a market to come along. Yep we still sell saw logs and firewood. We don’t haul any paper wood or pulpwood.

This situation may not last, then again it may continue to grow – but it is what we are doing mostly now and what we are working to expand for all the species we have available in the native Appalachian forest type.

This model is something that could be done anywhere and in fact that would be the greatest compliment and accomplishment of our (HHFF) mission we could imagine. It is not a hard system to emulate and one naturally adaptable to your community, forest type and markets. Third party certification is just a matter of someone other than the owner saying the principles are being practicesd and have principles that are clear, understandable and undeniably more sustainable than conventional approaches.

All of this information is on our web site through links to http://www.draftwood.com

Simon I am so saddened by your situation. I wish we had you in this area, we have plenty of good work in some of the best forest in the world. The woods here are very diverse not all of it is a mountainside. We extend an invitation to your son to come visit us here and see what he thinks. I have a pair he can work I’m sure. I’d bet we can get him a 90 day tourist visa or maybe a green card if he wanted to work a while.

I also understand your honest disgust over the conflict of every environmentalist alive whining about people not being green enough or this carbon footprint of that carbon spewing smokestack or any of the obvious reasons we are contributing to our own polluted world. Meanwhile they are not recognizing that right before their eyes there are wonderful solutions to many of the concerns they link to everything bad in the natural world and they do very little or nothing to support it.

In fact we have that exact scenario happening in our own county/community. There is a new group started called Sustain (fill in the blank) and they are scrambling to have every author of any environmental book come and save them while they won’t even invite an organization recognized around the world, but from their own back yard, to make a presentation to their general membership. Then they wonder why we won’t rush to have a booth at their Eco Fair when they hold it on the same day as one of the longest running Folklife Festivals in the country – which we have attended for over thirty years and alerted them to the conflict when they announced their date.

It is October the 24th – the big 350.org day. Funny that we haven’t seen much about all that on these pages…and for good reason, they ignore us, why would be pay any attention to them…which is not how I want it to work but how it is at the moment. Divide and conquer shouldn’t work among intelligent people….but it still does for the most part.

Anyway that is a report from what we are doing here in central Appalachia and HHFF, let us know what you think.

Salute,

[Gabe Ayers]

Man if we had a video collection of all the stuff that happens out there it would be a blooper reel that we could sell for more money than the wood is worth. I just hate falling into water or mud, but if you are out there – you eventually will….or I do and most everyone I know does too… I feel lucky when it happens at the end of the day instead of the beginning, because it is going to happen…

The weather doesn’t allow us that graceful seasonal shift that I seem to remember as an outdoor person most of my life. The changes seemed historically to be accompanied by various outdoor work to prepare for the different weather, soil conditions and increased efforts required to do anything, including stand up on old legs. Nowadays a fellow can go to bed with temps in the 70’s and wake up with them in the 30’s. The one word description of modern weather is “extreme”.

Meanwhile we all seem to find a way to enjoy our work and share it liberally with anyone interested and that is a complimentary aspect of this culture. The stories on this board keep all of us from feeling alone in our efforts despite the many miles that separate our landings, woodlots, famrs and ranches. I am glad that I am not the only one that gives the boys (young men) something to laugh at…

Thanks for sharing your lives with all of us DAP people…. keep up your good work when you can. We are always selling and giving firewood away too…it just makes our forestry work look better to not leave large pieces in the woods. The biggest factor for some sites is that skidding that rough stuff creates more impact on the skid trails than just extracting saw logs. Makes us be all the more careful about contour layout or going down and across, down and across the slope to get the wood to a landing. The other benefit is that it doesn’t require as much remedial work like water bars and filter piles at the end of them. Somehow the layout becomes more important to be efficient in creating the least impact and no remedial work. It is hard for the water to follow a trail of impact that is diverse. Everywhere we work there is evidence of previous skidding and it isn’t always diverse. When one goes straight up and down the hill for any distance water magnifies our presence after the job is over.

Glad everyone is working, winter is on the way, it just seems to arrive so dramatically instead of gradually, everywhere…

[Gabe Ayers]

Jimmy is now making his own arches. His quick release is stouter than the Forest MFG. motel.

The one Taylor has is a copy of Jimmy Browns that he consigned to Tim several years ago, after Tim had a rather unprofessional model at HPD demonstrating. There were some comments by the Europeans that went something to the effect of the U.S. being 30 years behind them in logging and 30 years ahead in farming with animal power. I don’t believe that, but that is what they observed that year at HPD.

Jimmy consigned an arch to us at SDAD and we brought it home in case anyone in the south wanted one. It has eight lug spindles and of course the draw bar attachment so you can use it as a fore cart if you don’t mind being up that high when working. In the summer it is a benefit to be above the heat coming off the team in a hay field. We noticed in the photo of Taylor’s has has a Reece hitch welded to the draw bar, which is a modification of Jimmy’s arch. Jimmy’s has a bolt on draw bar attachment.

I am not fond of the spring loaded pioneer pan seat when working in rough ground, seems likely to launch a fellow, but one can stand when in rough ground and only set down when the skid trail gets smooth. If you are going to move big wood this is a stout device. I would think they can be adapted to work with shafts or pole.

Now that all that hear say is written – I have to say that the Fisher arch is also a very serviceable device. It has a much lower center of gravity and no moving parts. The JB arch is adjustable, so that helps that characteristic. The Fisher arch also has a much simpler cantilever forward (14 degrees), but is not adjustable other than putting different height tires on it. The Fisher arch can be fitted with any seat. We use the bus seat because they are cheaper and allow a student to ride beside the operator for instruction. The Fisher arch is also just an arch and not a fore cart. The lack of a draw bar allows the log to be placed closer to the team than with the JB arch. If you do ride the arch you will find that climbing on the higher arch is harder than the lower arch. The placement of the peavy on the JB arch is better in that the double tree can move backward without hitting the peavy/cant hook placement on the Fisher arch.

The guard on the front of the JB arch is also a matter of personal preference. It surely would help keep a fellow on the arch in rough going. They both will turn over if hooked very far from the log, so don’t get on until your log is situated with the choker straight up to the slot bar – for the skid to the landing. When the arch turns over, you will have to turn it back with human power, so that is a consideration – and they will turn over. Riding the arch is a real benefit because half the time you are working you are empty and walking back into the woods is harder than riding.

I would suggest calling Jimmy and horse trading with him. He may need a dealer in Colorado and you might work out a deal with him. David Miller at Forest Mfg. may be in the same position.

Jimmy Brown – 585-567-8158
David Miller – 814-653-9695

The Fisher arch blueprints in 3D w/ materials list is free on our web site. Any local welding shop could make one, but you will still need, a seat, double tree and breast yoke at about 48″ widths.

This is an interesting discussion compared to thirty years ago when we decided to get serious about horse logging. There were no proven arches around to debate about, so when we found Charlie Fisher it was a welcome discovery to make the work easier, safer, lower impact on forest soil and less resistance on the horses. Then there is the matter of keeping the logs cleaner if you happen to be doing on site value added processing. Since the arch holds the logs in one position there is only one dirty side to the log, which one can work with when sawing without a debarker.

The Les Barden arch is a fine tool too, it has helped feed Carl and Lisa’s young’ uns for a while now.

Glad you are getting an arch, you will enjoy it.

You may notice in the attached photo that sometimes the Biological Woodsmen don’t even have a seat on the Fisher arch, but those fellows are usually in their twenties and athletes.

[Gabe Ayers]

If you go to the photo gallery you may see some new photos in the events section from our little Southern Draft Animal Days event.

We hope you enjoy them and the descriptions.

Thanks,

[Author]

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