[Gabe Ayers]

Carl,

Glad you could be there with them man. That is a great event that some of our fellows have been to before, I would love to make it up there someday.

Did you take any digital photographs? If so please post them for us travel challenged folks on the DAP board.

[Gabe Ayers]

Bedding is a real effort for any small time farmer. Since we happen to have a small time circular sawmill still operating in the community we buy a truck load of sawdust at a time and haul it to the farm on our old flat bed dump that also is our log (only) truck. We put some short wooden side boards and wooden tail gate on it and dump it on a place that is accessible, yet the water doesn’t run through it. This sawdust is mostly white pine and some hardwood. The sawdust is also aged somewhat so it is a little bit drier than right off the log. We have to pay about 40.00 per single axle truck load. It is important to remember that sawdust is usually around the same moisture content as living trees which are 3/4 water. So some drying occurs when it is spread thinly (4-6 inches) in the stalls before animals are put on it.

I think the most important point with bedding is to soak up the urine. Since 3/4 of the nitrogen that is in most animals excreta is in the urine if you don’t soak it up you are literally pissing your nitrogen away. Not true with chickens or poultry, for obvious reasons, which is why their manure is so hot or nitrogen rich. After soaking the urine up and then piling the bedding which is mostly manure from cleaning stalls you have a great compost pile that will turn into greater fertilizer. “Turn” is the operative word since some manipulation of the compost will be required to properly digest the material into a stable rich real fertilizer, that has gotten hot enough to kill most seeds, especially weed seeds. We use the front end loader on the old farm tractor to turn the compost at least twice before early spring/late winter spreading.

We also add chaff from the barn loft and occasionally some low quality or dusty hay. We only use the dusty hay as bedding when we tie the horses so they won’t be tempted to eat the dusty hay. This is also only possible because the barn is well ventilated and we set on a ridge that usually has some breeze blowing through the high ceiling box and tie stalls. In the future we plan some small grains that will provide some straw for feeding and bedding. We have decided to do a little more farming as well as our full time restorative forest management services or horse logging.

Some other thoughts about this need when keeping animals include the fact that although we spent years and considerable investment building our barn when we first bought the land 25 plus years ago, we try not to use it any more than necessary. Ironical for a building nicknamed Barnzilla, build it and try not to use it any more than we have to. In other words this big old barn usually is empty of animals as long as the animals can stay outside. The thoughts when building the barn were forage/hay storage first, animal shelter and equipment housing second. We built the barn as a training facility as far as the horses are concerned. This means box stalls to isolate the horses to make them brave about being alone and having our human presence as the only horses they get to relate too as a part of their training to work. It is a must that we do use the barn in order train young or new horses and to collect our fertilizer annually. Since we have to clean the stalls by hand into the tractor bucket or a wheel barrel we don’t just keep horses in the stalls for no reason. If we get behind (from doing other things to make money) we put it directly into the ground driven manure spreader for direct application to the fields.

We don’t have any boarders except mares when they are brought in for breeding, so that is not an issue at this time. If we did take on boarders they would have to pay for the cost of cleaning up after them as well as feeding and watering them.

Another thought about bedding is the idea of using fossil fuel processed woody debris. Our famous Virginia organic farmer Joel Salatin wrote an article for Rural Heritage a while back that suggested chipping trees from old over grown pastures to collect the woody debris for bedding. This set off some alarms in my forester woods loving mind.

First the forest is an ecosystem that regenerates itself in a series of different species occupying the land as it moves toward being a true climax forest again. So just chipping what is there (pioneer species) as if it were just a free source of organic matter is not fully understanding the forested ecosystem. The other point is that the energy required to do this chipping is not free and usually is fossil fuel powered which has it’s own carbon footprint value or devalue. A question would be is this land marginal agricultural land to start with, meaning thin or no topsoil, excessively drained and possibly highly abused in the past? If one was converting it back to a field would all the debris removed, used as bedding and composted then go back on that ground? The point is that marginal agricultural land may be best utilized as forest, since this use requires less energy input and won’t be highly productive farm land even with increased input.

So, sure if chipping is a part of clearing the edges or converting former agricultural land that is fertile and gently slopping enough to be a productive field then the woody debris could add carbon to the topsoil as bedding and compost. But grinding up a young forest that is trying to reestablish itself on marginal soil should be thought about deeply as a matter of the least input for the best result within the understanding of forest ecosystem and overall land health. I know Joel has run hogs in his woods because a neighbor of his that hunts just over the ridge from a piece managed this way has nothing good to say about the condition of the dominant trees left after porcine (hogs) are fenced in the woods. This is not the first time I have seen great farmers have some disregard for the forest. I have done it myself in the past. “The forest will take care of itself better than any farmer can tend a marginal field.”

We have collected sawdust from some local woodworking shops for bedding in the past. The best thing about that material as bedding is that it is dry and highly absorbent, meaning it will soak up more urine. Sometimes folks that have these little woodworking places just dump the shavings or planner dust over a bank somewhere. We have provided large garbage or leaf bags for them and went and picked it up every now and then and put it in the stalls.

Since we do sell lumber to these small woodworking facilities they are glad to give us the planer dust back, especially when we provide strong bags.

There are some reservations about using Black Walnut sawdust, but frankly we have put that in the stalls to with no negative results. I suspect someone will respond with a warning about that, but it amounts to such a small percentage of the overall material in the stall floor that it hasn’t hurt them so far. It is usually mixed with other species of planer shavings.

It would be nice if we all had a balanced perfect farming system that provided all our needs from right off the place. It could be possible, but it is more difficult to have such a wonderful closed self supporting system. We just seek out the materials we need from within our immediate community (ten miles or so) and make do with that. If one could pick up bags of dry leaves collected from urban settings that could add to bedding needs.

[Gabe Ayers]

Hey Wes,

That is great news. Awesome that he is progressing so well.

This Greg Lange fellow had not messed with horses much before coming to our course and promptly went home and got him a single horse worked him for a bit and then picked up another and put them together. Very impressive. He was a great student and seems a functional horsemen now.

The next step could be for him and you to teach – if there is anyone interested.

Tell him his old mentor wants him to get on the site and help you tell the stories about what you all are doing. You two can be allot of help to the others that are interested in working in the woods with their animals.

I saw that you once had a you-tube post that was put out by a student working on a small film. I thought it was good, do you have an address for that to share with the DAP group? Some here may not have seen it yet.

[Gabe Ayers]

Hey Wes,

Glad you are on this forum. Have you heard anything from Greg Lange out there? I have sent him an email or two and they keep coming back, do you have a good email address for him?

Thanks,

[Gabe Ayers]

It seems to just be a matter of the nature of the horse as an individual. It comes down to a horse can only be a horse, so their instinct of being or feeling safe in the herd setting and company of other horses makes them more brave or feel more safe.

The horse that works well and confidently single has obviously accepted being with humans as a herd experience. I think that is what all of us are talking about when we say think positive or recognize that your posture and attitude are being read by the animal at all times, maybe even closer that humans normally give an animal credit for.

I agree that the alpha type boss hoss is usually braver, but I think mostly because they accept being with the real boss hoss quicker, with the human handler being the real boss hoss. That is where the skill of being a natural horseman comes into play and it takes time to develop that. It doesn’t mean go about your business with a totally human centered approach, but to be observant of the horses reactions to everything around them – starting with you.

I think that is why they call it being a horseman and not a manhorse. The horse can only be a horse, so the challenge and duty is for the man to be a horse to create a natural herd interaction between both animals (humans and horses), but the horse is limited to seeing everything as a possible predator or one of them (another horse).

What do the rest of you horsemen think? And of course “man” in this case is a contraction of the word human…not a gender thing…

[Gabe Ayers]

We use a species of tree unique to higher elevations here in Appalachia.

It is Cucumber Magnolia, which is a curly grained tough light hardwood which is very resistant to weather decay. We often replace the tongues in the log arch on site out of a smaller tree that has taper in it naturally. We just whittle the thing down with a chainsaw to fit into the metal frame of the arch and drive it in with a wooden club or single bit ax. The overall length from double tree to breast yoke is about 9′ 6″ of exposed tongue.

A tongue sawn out of a clear piece of wood that is tapered is nice too.

We have hung them by the tip in the barn loft to help them dry straight and have stacked them on a flat level surface under roof also. Having a few extras makes it worth bringing a band saw onto the farm for a little custom sawing.
If you just have a few pieces to saw you could haul them to the band mill on a pickup.

We don’t have but a couple of implements with tapered metal tongues, the
road grader and an old David Bradley mower. I don’t know where someone could buy one of these tapered metal tongues.

[Gabe Ayers]

We always feel between the horses front legs and if they are not sweaty or wet there we turn em out. If they are wet between the front legs we walk them or allow them to stand in the breezeway until cooled out. This is why it is so important to make them come back to the barn slowly, so they cool out from working on the way back to liberty. If we are in a hurry to cool them we walk them until they dry off. We don’t have a hot walker.

That is a funny thing about horses, they can sweat in different ways. and my statement about sweat not hurting them is not altogether accurate or applicable to all situations. For instance if you see a horse sweating in the belly then they may have a belly ache. So one should listen for gut sounds and keep them moving until the sweating stops, gut sounds return – as an attempt to avoid or prevent colic. A horseman is paying attention (or trying) to all signs the horse is displaying.

Sometimes a nervous horse will sweat around the ears first and not on the whole body, which I have always thought of as a “thinking” sweat, maybe because it is close to their little brains. Some horses will have a little cold sweat where the moisture seems to be on the tips of the hairs and not on the skin, which is also a nervous reaction to something. My oldest gelding (Wedge) will do this anytime he thinks anything different is about to happen.

The best kind of sweat is the ones under the collar and harness from a honest good effort of comfortably moving against resistance.

I would think blanketing is a matter of the weather at the time of turn out or if you are putting them in a stall. If it is windy and cold maybe a blanket can help them dry off before turning out or stalling. The main thing I would think is to be sure that the sweating stops and the animal cools down gradually, back to a normal temperature or at least not sweating any longer, before returning them to their own choice of water, food and activity.

[Gabe Ayers]

Spending time in the woods with a proven practitioner like Carl Russell is the best way to learn how to log with horses. There are so many details of this work that simply can’t be learned in any other way than hands on, on site with a master such as Carl.

Whatever he wants or needs to charge for the instruction will be worth it for anyone serious about working animals in the forest. Any single aspect of this educational experience would be worth paying for.

If you are going to do this, invest in yourself and your education.

Sign up early and encourage Carl to conduct modern horse logging workshops regularly….

I recommend this form of learning as the best method possible.

[Gabe Ayers]

I suspect these are habits that he developed from his last owner or some earlier owner. Usually the horse knows the situation they are in. If he is on a loose evener, meaning dragging a double tree around he may suspect he is going to be hooked tight, like at a pulling contest.

Does he do the same thing on a pole or tongue?

Ira is right though, more work and lots of rewards by stopping them when they are doing perfect and rewarding the work with rest or whoa. The greatest reward for any beast of burden is cessation of demand. It may take a while before they get over the annoying habits, like mouthing the check line. I have seen lots of horses do this at pulls and even saw people put barbed wire on the line to attempt to stop the mouthing. Maybe some stop chew would help, like the stuff they use on stalls to stop cribbing. I don’t recommend the barbed wire because if it was me I would get myself caught on that and it is just another pain to put on and deal with every time you harness.

The point is that this is a habit that came with the horse, probably and it may be hard to break. The only chance is to change his life experience through many repeated positive reinforcement experiences and teaching him he can be calm and rest when he has a chance. Hard to to if you just work them part time.

It is just a nervous twitch reaction to some experience in the past.

Let us know how you deal with it.

It is dangerous in that the horse can pull the lines through the hame line ring and then when you pick up the lines the spreader buckle could be on the wrong side of the ring from the fidgeting mouthing of the line and you will not have any control pulling back against the horses shoulder and not his mouth.
You can put a ring on the driver side of that hame line ring and stop it from being pulled through. It takes the exact size ring and is again another piece of equipment to keep up with, but could save a run away.

[Gabe Ayers]

Sounds like you need a new battery in the solar charger?

The really expensive ground rods are copper. The cheaper ones are galvanized.

Several ground rods really helps. We have two stallions behind electric fence so we know it is important to keep them hot.

They know when it’s not.

[Gabe Ayers]

Sounds like it might be an equine social issue and not much to do with the effort. It takes a brave horse to work single even on familiar ground. One thing for sure, is once he was cooled down and back in a relaxed state, the sweat didn’t hurt him. If you did the same thing tomorrow he may not sweat at all.

He may be worried about the new horse following him or just being in his space and sweating it…

Glad you all had an enjoyable ride nonetheless, what a cool thing to do on a Sunday afternoon.

[Gabe Ayers]

John,

If you will share the name of the fellow in TN. we may have a referral to him sometime. We have an overwhelming demand for the services of sensitive
restorative forestry throughout the country and often, actually most often don’t have anyone to refer them to.

Stay in touch man, let us know what you think…. Lots of folks up north log in the winter, it is actually the most environmentally sensitive time to be in the woods.

I would suggest taking some chainsaw safety courses through a system like “Game of Logging”, that is the first most important step for anyone seriously working in the forest harvesting timber. It is a great training program. You can learn these skills from someone that has been through the course, but the course and setting of being with other new chainsaw operators makes it easier to learn the skills and principles behind safe skilled chainsaw operation.

I was fortunate enough to be trained by Soren Erickson himself many years ago. He started the GOL program.

[Gabe Ayers]

John,

Start a logging business with your horses. Go to our web site, read about how we do it, educate yourself about what you need to know and get out there and make a little logging with your horses – around taking care of the grandparents. You won’t get rich, but you can make some money anywhere there is decent forest.

It is easier in some places than other’s and not something for everyone, but it can be done. The animals are central to the sensitive and therefore superior nature of restorative forestry as we practice it.

I am sure there are folks in Michigan logging with horses for a living. They may be willing to let you know what they are doing, if you can find them. We will do anything we can to help you. There are many on this site will help you too. Those horses look big enough to bring out a nice log.

Let us know what you think. Glad you are on the site.

PS-
I wish the site had a way of notifying folks when a new photo is posted. I put a new one of our team at the local pull in the favorite photos section.

[Gabe Ayers]

It is like power steering compared to an old tractor that is manual steering and could break your arm if it hit a rock of stump….

Just simply drive more sensitively….

I wouldn’t be in the business without leverage bits….period. You can use them in the corners with no leverage, but the horse knows it is still there…

The curb chain being looser just means the levers come back further toward you before the curb tightens. It actually increases the movement of the entire bridle shifting it a little bit more to the front of the face when the curb is not fitted. The point is to have it where the pressure is light and certain that there is not curb action required. When they drive sweet the curb doesn’t come into play much…

I have wanted to comment/post on the starting and pulling, but have been so busy with end of the year fund raising efforts and real work that I haven’t had time…
yet…

Great threads, great community…

[Gabe Ayers]

Kristin,

“What if instead we were to subsidize the *consumer* side,”

What do you mean by subsidizing the “consumer side”? Interesting.

I have avoided posting our experience with producing food for sale, I think it has been explained in an earlier post on this site.

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