[blue80]

Sorry, just can’t wait.

@Biological Woodsman 12788 wrote:

Kevin,

I am not sure how you will get out of construction and into the woods working real horses if you don’t want to use wood in every appropriate application possible?

Mr Rutledge:
My smart aleck remark is that if I am out of construction, I won’t have to use wood in every appropriate application possible anymore, just things around the farm. I can just supply to others and let them decide?

But for real, you have a great point. So far, I figure it comes down to existing markets, and those currently undiscovered markets that can be legally capitalized on, as it makes good sense to run a for profit enterprise. But I may have moved to the wrong place for a lot of time in the woods as far as harvestable timber, along with the fact I could not honestly pass myself off as a woodsman.

So far I see the markets that I can pursue now, as far as including trees, include:

Beetle kill standing pine: State/private contracts for fire suppression, harvested material to be used for several functions, including interior panelling, furniture, firewood, bonfires, authentic six rail fencing for rich people

Firewood: Ads I see consistently run $150 a cord for softwood unsplit not delivered. $200 split, delivered and stacked. Maybe some opportunity there?

Wyoming declared Russian Olive a noctious weed last year, so the move is on to eradicate it. It loves to grow in inaccessilbe areas-drains, fencerows, floodplain, state habitat areas. I hope to advertise a little and see what market there may be if any against the rubber track low impact skidsteer operators that cut the stump close to the ground and spray it with herbicide. Maybe chip a lot of it, and use the mulch for weed suppression/moisture retention around new growth on the farm?

I really don’t know how to get started feasibly, as we have debt. But this week Georgia Pacific called me asking our company be their primary contractor at their nearby plant. All we have to do is upgrade our liability insurance from 3million to six million, upgrade vehicle insurance to 1 million, provide employer modification report, loss run for OSHA, increase employer liability insurance, fill out 12 page contract etc. etc. Then update all yearly.
And a bid to do building a new FBI building 7 hrs away in Cheyenne.
And some condos in New Jersey.
It scares me; All work that will take me away from the goal of “the simple life” and family priorites. I figure if my kids can’t work with me, it’s not work worth doing. I hope that’s not proud or short sighted, but it’s where I’m at.

So I do take your suggestions seriously, because it’s my hope it’s time to get started real soon….How exciting!

Thanks,
Kevin

[blue80]

I think fundamentally, I agree with you all. And I really love timberframe; jaw dropping no two the same character. But as Carl said, a lot is going to be decided by using material that is easily available; material that makes sense to use in a given locality. And the fact is, a great portion of land does not offer timberframe options for the casual landowner. And alas, not all the population is from a mantra “when boys were men and men were as tough as saddle leather” Yep, you are all tough guys, and should be proud of it. Pictures speak volumes in Scotts pictures. That is a real home, not just a house.
I wonder if the neighbours wanted like structures contracted for them, would they be affordable? Or should they be? Maybe it’s their fault they are not handy and therefore don’t deserve the finished product at low cost. I don’t know.

Last summer, we built a structure in Centennial Wy. Lots of history there, the main lodge had been rebuilt with timbers several times over the past 120 years due to reoccuring fires. The Snowy ski area had just been rebuilt due to a fire. As have most of the lodges in Yellowstone. Doc Hammil lost a lifetime worth of equipment and some structures two years ago in E. Glacier due to fire. So for me its not wrong to build non combustibly but rather fitting.
I do not have to create a market for myself either, it is already there with all the crazy building codes.

For the solution on our place, we clad the outside of our ICF structure with poor quality Doug Fir, ran through a handhewn planer. It’s very thickest profile is 1.5 inches thick by 12 inches wide, it wouldn’t have made 2by grading standards… We prefinished all sides and then screwed it to the ICF walls. After weathering a couple years, we’ll chink the horizontal shiplap. Inside, we clad the interior walls with blue stain pine, a result of the extensive beetle kill. So we are taking “junk” lumber and making lemonade. I don’t know much about proper forestry techniques, but we thought this was quite stewardly. And the science behind it is worth bragging about. No organics and no air cavity in the wall system;foam, concrete, foam. Which means that the dew point is non existent. Which also means that convection-the largest loss of energy in our structures-is beaten (fiberglass and cellulose only help conductive losses) And with a sealed wall system no bugs, mold, mildew or pollens enter the structure, causing long term indoor air pollution. And I’m proud of this because my wife hates cleaning, and I love her and want to provide a low maintenance place for her to raise our children; she wants to work outside with the horses too, and I hate cleaning myself….I feel like a big man knowing my baby crawling on the floor is just as comfortable without drafts, as I am on my stool.
Floor systems were poured clear span 38ft., and serve as outdoor living/greenroof garden which we decided to do when the mosquitoes about killed us from the flood irrigated land. (wife was 7 months pregnant and we were living in an army tent on the propery at the time) A prickle against the lumber industry for me is the use of all the OSB products, both sheet goods and floor joist goods. I have seen first hand the decimation in N. Ontario where “every thing goes-three inches and larger, that is.” Seven boxcars a day out of tiny Fort Francis, Ontario. So building with concrete gives a safer-fire, quieter-sleep, efficient-stores solar in the mass, and versatile-huge spans, system. It’s not that I hate wood, just don’t think it makes sense to use in that application. At risk of making everyone hate me, I peruse that I may think it’s silly to experience benefits by using the internet and a foreign made computer but insist institution of proactive building technology -which may also improve quality of life for our families and businesses -is over the top. And I’m not sure anyone actually said that. Preferences and options for individuals are just that, and I’m thankful for this freedom.

How I’d like to have my 12 acres of mixed hardwood forest from our farm in Indiana transplanted here…

Question: Is it true that timbers harvested today have less structural quality, less natural insect resistance, more open grains which allow faster deterioration than the 1840 era timberframes we still hear about?

Question: If timberframe kits became an affordable method for sweetharts out of highschool to build with, is there enough available to supply the blue collar demand? Or will it become a rich mans sport?

Mr. Rutledge, I am thinking about your comment about getting out of construction and into the woods, but for another day. Wow I can sure waste a guys time….

I sure appreciate you all,
Kevin

[blue80]

J-L
I don’t know where you are in Wy. but on my way to Billings I stopped and saw a couple single riders for sale at an equipment yard just north of Bridger MT. Will try to get you a the number of the yard if you are interested.

Kevin

[blue80]

QUOTE from the first thread, “Maybe this will lead to a thread about locally produced building materials and other styles of building.”

After many years of apprenticing for others and then becoming self employed, we have adapted our construction methods over the years to deal directly with the very issues we were problem solving/remediating on many jobs. Some of those being rot, poor efficiency, safety, fire attenuancy, healthy indoor air quality.
So while I love working with wood, I started having real problems remediating rot with more organic materials. I began having conflicts when installing a $15,000 stair/handrail package on a home that costs a fortune to heat and cool. Living through 3 hurricanes in Florida made us aware of the opportunity costs lost in a community when structures are decimated. Like seeing firemen literally crying when their firehouse was demolished on their rescue equipment limiting their ability to respond to hurricane survivors.
So carpentry in fact being problem solving, we started looking at alternative building options, including upgraded stick frame, timberframe, SIPS, straw bale, rammed earth to name a few. We have settled on ICF’s, Insulating Concrete Forms as being the most proactive that we can find. When I say proactive, I mean that it has to be affordable for the working person, promote a healthy indoor environment, sustainable- through longevity, durability, and low maintenance- readily available and versatile for many different applications. So we use EPS (ahem, yes, petroleum based) and concrete (ahem, yes, high CO2 emmisions to create portland cement) to create viable structures. I believe that using these elements in an application which has no expiration date is still very responsible. (I rarely use the “green” word as there are so many greeniacs these days and its now so watered down, like organic…)
I encourage consumers to use as much “aesthetic” lumber as possible, leave the structure to inorganics. By following this method, one can now make use of beams that have excellent aesthetic value but little structural value.
For instance a home we assisted with in Jackson Hole this spring will look like a timberframe in all aspects, but the shell of the home is actually superinsulated concrete;ICF. Reportedly, the GC said that the timber package was largely paid for in savings by being able to use non structural beams and timbers…
It feels great to build schools that heat and cool 7 times cheaper than with concrete block, while providing a safer and healthier environment for children.
It feels great to work with the horses in our ICF shop while the Wyoming wind is howling outside too…
It feels great to build structures that may be gutted and remodeled countless times as they have done in Europe with their inorganice buildings. Our homes, should we choose to live in them long term, now become heirlooms, instead of money pits after 40 years.

As always, we just encourage the consumer to review their building options as they would a big screen tv or a truck, and make a best decision for themselves.
Enough of my shameless self promotion, believe it or not, I’m actually on this forum to learn so I can get out of construction!
And in my defense I am not trying to sell you anything, we are a 90% labor only company, which makes this “technology” available to the working class. Thanks again Henry Ford! Am I allowed to say that on a horse forum???

Kevin

[blue80]

We have used lunarpages for a few years now and have been really happy with them. Consistent, and a couple times when they were upgrading servers, they communicated perfectly.

My wife does the design, her past life before the kids she specialized in computer programming.

Just a work website so far, but the farm website will be coming!
http://www.icfinstall.com
Kevin

[blue80]

The fact is, probably everyone is caught between a dollar and a dream-even those stuck with lots of dollars.

So in effect two futher definitions of people can be characterized?
Dream makers and dream breakers.
It seems reading through a lot of the information on this site, most involved are dream makers, not just with their own goals but also and sometimes especially with those around them. A wonderful example of “it is better to give than receive”
This is very refreshing for me to see, a young person with everything yet to learn with regard to becoming a teamster.

Currently I do mostly construction and excavation work to support my future horse farming habit, and have been focusing on better building technologies long before it was “cool to be green” But the building industry has become such a sales oriented, litigious, bonded and lobbied sector I have for years felt increasingly restricted, even though I am among the best at what I do, and profitable by the worlds standards.

But it wasn’t until I was immersed in working with horses this summer that a young guy said to me, “I’ve been watching you this week and I could tell you are a Christian. I haven’t been to church in about 20 years, but I am thinking about it again” Wow, in the last 15 years of construction, as hard as I have tried to be a Christian witness, nobody has come out of the blue and told me this. Thanks Dan, for your honesty and encouragement for me to follow my dream!

Could it be that for some of us, working hard with hard working animals makes our Father in heaven smile? I definitely think so.

Kevin

[blue80]

One of the most interesting items I learned at the doc hammill workshop this summer was his demonstration of a defined method to drive horses.
Doug says it far better, but the premise is that horses want to know their parameters, and once known, they can perform better; more relaxed, efficient, safe, etc. He illustrated this with us when he ground drove the students blindfolded…..I hit a post….

The main method to do this; after proper groundwork is done- is what he calls “alternating pressure” of the lines. Most times using a slight, but sometimes when needed using exagerated alternating line pressure between the right and left lines, the team gets a reading that the driver is totally in charge. This method is used to steer, but also send other messages to the team. Apparently he became in tune to this method while watching his mentor drive. Doc said he noticed his mentor, a phenomenal teamster, using almost imperceptible pulses on the lines to send messages to the team.

For example, we were working with two mares, a 5 year old suffolk quite stubborn and alpha who was not quite confident in her abilities; she came across as lazy. She was paired with a 23 year old Clyde mare, who had been everywhere, done everything; also an alpha. The mares were “archenemies” who were always separated when not working…. Anyways, at different times, by pulsing the lines right, left, right, left the message would be given to speed up or slow down, in a way that does not desensitize, or make a “hard” mouth. When heading to the barn, the team would quicken the pace, so we were instructed to use longer, slower “seesaw” The team would slow, without bending their necks or us forcing any pressure. When the team was performing well, but a quicker pace was desired, a slightly “go quicker” message was sent through the lines, by basically squeezing the lines with increasing frequency between thumb and forefinger alternately right left right left. The team would sense the energy and step up.
Again, I am sure I am butchering “the seesaw” but after being completely self taught on our last team, I was glad to have this teamster theory explained, and as a result I hope to treat our future team(s) with even more respect by using this method.

When watching some Clinton Anderson demos I see he is also huge on “flexing” ; one line/rein control of the horse so we don’t cause hard mouths. Turn the head, control the horse, without pain.

I have a bunch of Doc’s videos, we’ve traded them out right now with another new team owner in WA, but when we get them back we would be glad to loan them to whoever is interested.

Kevin

[blue80]

I really appreciate all your comments and insight!

Our family is working on dreams too, with four kids (oldest is 6, youngest is two weeks old) We are trying to make a logical but dedicated transition to “the simple life” I believe it may have started 8 years ago when I convinced my wife we shouldn’t have cable TV anymore. Then our brains started working on their own again. Step by step, we are trying. And not to get started when we are financially comfortable, rather right now so our kids can and have to be a part of it.

Built a low maintenance home and barn/shop; still not finished of course, as I do construction work….
Install underground drainage in the field to lower the water table, and reduce sodicity and compaction.
Dig 40 years of neglect out of the farm drains.
Spread gypsum and beet lime
Incorporate some philosophies like http://www.kinseyag.com I knew that I wanted to be involved growing my soil and farm when I found myself spellbound by Neal Kinsey’s book “Hands-on Agronomy” I read it cover to cover, understood about 10 percent of it. But I figure the philosophy is bang on, “feed and balance the soil”

Hopefully soon, like right now, we’ll be able to start. Problem is we don’t know how to grow things. Or sell farm produce legally. Or live within our means. Yet.

My wife said it best, and most comforting, “what’s the worst that could happen? We lose all our stuff and money.”
When she puts it like that, why wouldn’t we at least try?

So please keep the advice coming, we are going to need it!
Kevin

[blue80]

Davis County sure is a special place. We lived in S. Indiana for a few years before moving to Wyoming, and bred our mares to a stud just down the road from the sale barn; then we ended up selling our mares and colts to them when we moved. Although I grew up with a lot of Amish in SW. Ontario, my dad was a veteriarian, it wasn’t until living in S. Indiana that working draft horses really got into my blood. Or maybe it was always there and I didn’t know it? Either way, I’m hooked now…

Kevin

[blue80]

My neighbour uses a few center pivots on 600 acres for a 350 cow calf grass fed operation. They have a hot wire on the pivot and follow with another wire. The water trough is in the center of the circle, always accessible. He manages his grass on I think a 22 day cycle, just clipping the tops of the grass and moving the cows on. The cows always are on the pivot side with the fresh grass when it moves, so moving the fence is a leisurely way to spy the cattle.

We are looking into using hand/wheel lines as mechanical irrigation and rotational grazing and follow it with some light footed ruminants and turkeys.

Kevin

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