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Nice idea with this thread; thanks, Kevin

http://www.fortcauseway.com

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You may want to check out http://www.cfra.org If you go to the “farm link”, there is a database which covers many states, retiring farmers who are willing to sell to the younger generation. Never know, you may step into a nice rolling operation and get the owner to finance…..

I never had any luck with going FSA, it seemed they only could plug in conventional farm sytems, and sustainable draft horse farming was not a business model they would stand behind.
We also had a wake up learning that ag properties over 30 acres can’t be resold on the conventional lender market, which means the bank writing the loan has to be 1st on the loan for the duration. We were lucky to have a local bank hold our mortgage as a 1st at a higher interest rate, and only a 15yr term was available. The local bank would not write ours as an ag loan because it takes longer for them to foreclose on ag (like a year instead of 60 days)
The things I never learned in school. Maybe just wasn’t listening…

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When I asked a friend of mine the same question, he said bits are like shoes. You have different pairs for different days and uses. In his opinion we should change bits more often if we are in tune to our animals.
One of my mares wont settle down. My friend shows up one day with a homemade bit, says “maybe try this out” I asked “what is it?” He says “homemade”
It works. A bit of copper, a roller, a flapper that he got his son to braze together on a snaffle.

My friend is 65 years old. This time last year I bought a rank 13 yr old who had been used as a stud until 11yrs old. As I worked with him the gelding seemed weird with a couple different bits so I went to rubber.
My friend ran him up and down Red Lodge main street all summmer with a rubber bit, and said that the horse never once pulled against it. (and Red Lodge is a biker haven in the summer)

So I would recommend do whatever makes your horse viable and content, and you feel is safe.

Best, Kevin

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I have found it useful to utilize round pen/natural horsemanship techniques in the quest for the horses to stand. As far as natural horsemanship, I guess I would say I use a mix of natural horsemanship, with no set rules for any given animal. If I had to explain myself, I would say I use a mix of Doc Hammill (gentle, time consuming) Parelli (understanding the needs and psychology of a horse) and Clinton Anderson (loosen up the animal, train them quickly and get them to work)
This natural horsemanship is fundamental for our work horses, because it deals with the fear response a horse/mule has to stimuli, which often happens while the team is at rest. One horse moves, the other horse catches up, the implement is rollling with no line pressure, an voila, interesting stories result….
So before the time the animal is even in harness, they have learned that “whoaa” is a command given when they are at rest, without pressure; this differs from the “whoaa” command given while inflicting pain/pressure on the animals mouth.

For one team, we had a round pen climber, natural horsemanship was not working, and so we used a humane and carefully instituted running w with great results.
When the animal is in harness, I hitch a little loose. When we stop, the lines are wrapped/tied loosely to a piece of equipment, with slight tension. The team will inch back up in the harness to get out of the tension, giving a small amount of slack in the tugs.
If they move their head to scratch, they get pressure. If they move forward, they get pressure, without the implement moving behind them. I can be 20 steps away, and when I see a leg move, I bark “whoaa!” They feel pressure on their mouth, and return to zero position. It gets inside their head that I can control them from many steps away. Horses have to be loose to respond to pressure, instead of react against it, which is why I see flexion as a key training tool.

I have found that working the horses hard, and letting them enjoy a long rest is great. I don’t have time to sit and look at the sky. Usually my implements have buckets and fencing materials or hoof trimmers on them, so when we stop to rest I can do some alternate work and stretch my legs. To allow me to do this during the learning curve of a team, I have also attached the ends of the lines with a conway buckle, and snap on a piece of rope 30 ft. behind the implement. If they do get start to move, I can get to the rope. I also used to set a boat anchor in the ground, but now I just hitch a little looser and set the lines technically as mentioned earlier….
Its not foolproof, and I never trust them, but this is what I ‘ve come up with so far. I’m sure some methods will change over time….

Best, Kevin

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I got back two days ago from 10 days working on their place. Long story, but I’m not impressed.

Kevin

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I agree Brad, niches and side work as you have explained can really fill in the gaps…. Your rates seem very fair or maybe even cheap, but Im biased.

We have also noticed a demand from people who want to learn and/or want their teams trained. But one on one is expensive and few can or are willing to invest in the education experience or a long term apprenticeship. And training some strangers horses seems to have the effect that the horses end up great for me and not for the owners after the team leaves. Which brings us back to training the owners, who chronically have “no time” to pay for training…..

So finding a way to make some forward progress, by completing some work or training, during the education process should make the learning curve less expensive and more productive. And its always nice for a teacher to see a student actually working and making progress instead of spouting theory and sending the student home.

We are also getting the feealing that it seems a lot of people want to just experience working with horses, but not do it long term. So for those people, lets give them their day of fame and charge them well for it….

So one way we are hoping to facilitate this demand is through the purchase of some new equipment, which is enroute from PA as this is written. A couple ground drive I and J carts with double seats, an 8 ft. cultimulcher with double seating, and a couple of I and J trailed mowers will help us do more work in bigger hitches while training horses and talk less in between. We plan to be mobile and willing to travel to others properties to work teams, demo the new equipment, and provide agritourism options for local dude ranchers. We also hope to get some of the local organic growers interested in draftpower by demoing our new Nolts plastic much layer, modified for flood irrigation.

I guess I’m on a tangent here away from the logging perspective, but we did a three day dry run camping in the Bighorn Mtns this fall, where we can get pole permits ($45 per 100 poles any length max butt diameter 8 inches, and firewood permits (any diameter $6 per cord maximum length 8 ft. so we cant build cabins with them…..) and have interest for next year from people wanting to train their teams to work on their own property. Althought the Forest Service wouldn’t allow us to charge a fee, we think its a great opportunity to grow some community, make friends, learn from each other while in some of the nicest areas of creation.

So as you say, whats the cost of an ad on craigslist. And since nobody else seems to be offering the “work to learn service” why not see if there is a market where you are.

Might as well be flexible at least until you can afford to be picky.

Kevin

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been working in their pants all summer. they are great, though made in china.

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Andy, nice to read your honest hopes goals and fears and frustrations. Obviously with your ingenuity and energy you’ll fall back and punt and make some lemonade…. or a bakers analogy, take the good with the bad put it in the oven and you got cupcakes….:cool:

Have you evaluated using a covercrop roller like I and J makes? http://www.croproller.com

I too am behind, thinking the covercrop roller would be a way to still get some forage planted while knocking down what I have growing, without tilling the soil, but then one needs access to a notill drill.

Kevin

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Fellman, thanks for posting the ram pumps. I came across one of those in Indiana a few years back while remodelling a vintage log home. It ran 1/2 mile from the creek to a summer kitchen, then on the ground, then through a stock watering trough, then through the garden.

I have more water rights than land below our fast flowing canal canal and was hoping to find one of these pumps to load a tank and drip some acreage above the canal, so again, thanks!

Kevin

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I too am looking for a spreader with an agitator to spread gypsum in our alkaline soil. Gypsum bridges even more than lime… I rented a conventional gas powered 6 ton ffertilizer spreader rom the coop and pulled some shields and spread 100 ton a couple years ago but had problems and wouldn’t do it again. I need something with steeper sides and an agitator. Have my eye on an old highway sander spreader that would mount on a 7 ton wagon frame and run off hydraulics of a powered forecart?
I have come across a lot of museum pictures of the old timers pulling wagons with horses spreading gypsum with a shovel off a wagon and will probably just do it that way for now….
Apparently Georgia Pacific local wallboard plant says I am the only one getting gypsum locally for ag use which I find strange, given the benefits it can bring to the soil….

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Generally pole building homes are utilized because they are a very inexpensive method to make a wall envelope.

Generally pole buildings are not known for high efficiency unless spray foam is used as insulation. I don’t mean to turn this into a building science forum, but it is not commonly known that R-Value only measures conduction; where in reality most efficiency is gained by solving convection. Foam (whether Sips ICF or spray foam) solves convection whereas fiberglass and products like cellulose do not…

Pole Barn structures are widely known to have high rodent and insect infestation due to the permeable juncture at the footing/wall connection on the exterior walls.

Kevin

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I have some work to do on my #9, was hoping to get another from a guy down the road who thinks it is made of gold, and redo both at once so this conversation is near and dear to my heart….

I was told to put a couple stub guards on each end of the bar to reduce clogging/dragging…. They seem to make a difference for the work I’ve done.

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That is,

http://www.ruralheritage.com/team_for_sale/teamdirectory.cgi?category=2

I think that is a good price with leather harness for six year old mules if they are as good as advertised!

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A nice team of mules for sale on the Rural Heritage site in Homestead just waiting for you!

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The last two weeks, I’ve been rotating 6 horses in a 3 and 4 abreast sodbusting, discing. Have about 60 acres done so far. Green horses or unfit horses get 4 hrs. max a day in cool weather.
One gelding I’ve been working about 4 hrs. a day, 4 days a week for the last couple of months. So I thought he was ready to work. He was a “rank” 13 yr. old when I got him this winter…. As he got in shape, I had to switch his collar, then switch again, and this week it seemed looser and he has a funny neck with steep bony shoulder and I was short a better fitting collar so I ran him an extra day with the best fit collar I had and no pad, and that day, I had a short chain from his hames to a green mare that would lunge once in awhile and he got some soreness in his shoulder, and slight wrinkles in both. I felt pretty bad, but he isn’t holding it against me:o I lucked across some more used collars and pads Friday on a pallet in a guys shed and am going to cut a hole in the back of the pad take out the deer hair where the sore is and keep him going 1/2 days….
My good mare 8yr old who has been solid and worked all winter, after never been harnessed before last fall when I got her has worked each day, about 10 hrs. She is not sore but the skin started to wrinkle a little. Epsom salts and cold water I am told.
Never had a problem before, but never worked horses this hard before. All are white/grey I am told they have thinner skin, also none have worked hard in their life.
Seem collar fit is more and more imperative the more consistent work you do. And you can’t get the proper long term collar on them until they get fit…. So I’ll have collars hanging around like fishermen have poles hanging in their garages….

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