[Bumpus]

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Then they add all of these burdens to bare,
( work Loads ) that they want done.

Even trying to ride them to death some times for there own pleasure
while the animal is still work.

Would you do all of that for a little feed, grass, and water ?

They may think … just leave me alone and they will eat
when they want to for free and let us ride you for a while.

Just food for thought.
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[Bumpus]

@Carl Russell 12219 wrote:

I only mention this (again:)) because “pushing” is an over-simplification of the power action of the working animal per the original post by Bumpus. I will settle for “lift-push”, but “pushing” misses the point when used alone.

Carl

Even when it is brought down to a technical simplification, work animals still are not pulling a load as previously stated.
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[Bumpus]

@Biological Woodsman 12162 wrote:

Nope, not going to answer your questions Bumpus.

I think I already have and what it seems you are looking for is approval to high grade. Not going to get it from me man – if that is what you want to do go right ahead, you don’t need my approval.

If you want to discuss this further in a way that allows better communication, why don’t you drive on down to the mountains and we talk in person.

Call first to be sure I will be around.

OK .. But that was not my question as it is ! ! !
It is not about hight grade ! ! !

I have parteners in the business that would like to know as you all said … ( ask the questions
and you would answers ) … to the question we would ask which are simple .

What does your contract mean to us ?

This is real business … not pleasure, which me and my partners in land contracts, and others would like to know.

Tell us what you mean ! ! !
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[Bumpus]

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Welcome to :

Draft Animal Power – Sustainable Farming, Forestry and Living.

I am new here too.
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[Bumpus]

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Jason Rutledge,

Aka … Biological Woodsman :

Could you do me a favor and give me an answer to the questions I have asked you in post # 12 so I can understand more clearly what you mean ( to your reference to your contract ) you are talking about, pertaining to your system of procurement in wood lots ?

Sincerely

bumpus
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[Bumpus]

@Carl Russell 12078 wrote:

understand that there are NO stupid questions.

I agree and do understand that there are no stupid questions.

@Carl Russell 12078 wrote:

I am still concerned that your intent here is to create controversy that need not exist.

I have not … nor do I intend to cause controversy, or problems …
That is not my intent.

And I would not waist my time trying to do such,
which would be wrong to do anyway.

Just because I have a voiced ( mine and others ) concerns does not mean I am trying to cause trouble which I feel, ( to this degree ) should have been discussed in private.

I also have concerns and questions that I have asked on this thread itself, which have not been answered, … but I am patient enough to wait and see if they will be answered.
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[Bumpus]

@simon lenihan 12036 wrote:

bumpus,
I really can not understand where you are going with this tread, if folk post something on this forum that i can not understand i have the means to contact them through a private message on this forum. I do not think getting other folk involved [ voting ] is the answer, just my 2 cents worth.
simon lenihan

Even the poll it’s self shows right now that 9 out of 14 people who took the time to voted are having problems understanding higher sophisticated big words instead of using more common everyday language that people are unlearned on the subject can understand.

Many others have read this thread but did not vote.

Most of the ones who did vote yes
( and they are the one who teach and use these words ) do understand there terminology that they use because they are in the Sustainable Farming, Forestry and Living life style systems, and use these terms every day communicating with each other.

I myself can also talk and use highly educated words myself but many people would not understand me, and I would be wasting my time talking because they would not benefit.
But if I talk using every day language to explain things to people they will benefit from the communication.

Many guests view here and are left wondering what is being discussed simply because the would have to Carry a dictionary to look up words, and even then many of these words are used in different applications.

The poll itself proves my point.

If you would read every thing from the beginning it might
be more clear why I wrote this way.

It’s kind of like trying to teach a 3 grader in a College Class Room Setting.
They won’t gain much at that level.

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[Bumpus]

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Sometimes when an animal is only eating grass they lack enough Vitamin A
which can contribute to watery eyes.
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[Bumpus]

@Ixy 12024 wrote:

Although I believe it’s pointless trying to ‘sell’ the idea, people either get it or they don’t, the simplest way I can put it is:

Oil WILL run out. It takes an incomprehensibly long time for oil to form, and we obviously use it way quicker than that so its not a question of if, but when. Maybe it’ll be ten years, maybe a hundred, the only certainty is that one day, it won’t be there anymore and prior to that, you can bet it’ll get so expensive ordinary people won’t be able to afford it – we’ll be on our own.

We’ll have no fuel for lorries, machinery, combines etc etc etc – how will we harvest and transport things? We won’t have petrochemicals – packaging, fertiliser, pesticides etc will no longer be there.

The good news is that – we don’t need oil! We survived for thousands of years without it. BUT, the bad news is that the methods for doing things without oil are not quick fixes, they need time to build up and plenty of perhaps forgotten knowledge we need to relearn. Best to start right now then! 😀

Ixy … I believe you may have posted on the wrong thread .

This thread is not about oil … it is about Sustainable Farming, Forestry.
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[Bumpus]

@Joel 12021 wrote:

Ever try to drive a nail in an oak 2×4?

Only when it is green or get out the drill.

Or maybe a power nailing gun.
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[Bumpus]

@Biological Woodsman 11874 wrote:

Now – first it is understood that privately owned forestland is the property of that owner and they have the inherent right to do with it as they see fit, within common values that forestland holds for the common good or water quality for instance and the use of “best management practices” often required by many states to keep loggers from lowering water quality by their practices.

That being said means that we understand that grandma may be in the hospital and needs allot of money fast, so a heavy harvest of the family woodlot may be the only source of that larger income available to the family.
We understand that reality beyond our advice to be restorative or leaving the best trees for the future. This is why we have a clause in our management agreement that requires that we are given the “first right of refusal” on subsequent or the next harvest. We feel that if a high grade or a clear cut is (determined by the landowner) to be applied on a site we have left the best trees to grow faster, then we should get the benefit of the value “cashed in” from this next harvest. As long as we would give as much for it as a conventional logger then we will do the work and despite it not being our choice of the best management, we want to keep it open to gain from our work and to leave the forest better from our techniques when/if liquidating the stand. In other words if you are going to high grade or clear cut the animals still do a superior job compared to machinery considering the residual condition of the site, including unmarketable trees and soil.

Sincerely,

I understand the need you have for your contract and why.

1. My question is if I or my children who inherit my land and timber after I die decide to clear cut for a future project, ( or what ever reason ) and need the job done quickly and you or your team of loggers are not able to cut and clear the land of it’s timber as fast and conventual loggers ( under a certain time frame ) so the land can be put to a different use. Would we have to Wait until you have time to work us in being as you have first refusal.

2. If I or my children decide to use another means of cutting and a different logging crew, this would not be permissible according to you contract.
Am I correct ?

3. They may not like this way of handling there land and timber.
So what would they do then ?

4. If for some reason you could not perform a cut when it is asked for does that break the contract for future use or just for that one cutting ?

5. A contract which works today may not fit all of the situations that come up later on in the future. So what happens if I decide to sell the land and ( all that is there with it ) does the contract hold the new owners to the same agreement even if they do not agree, or want to have the same requirements for future use to there land ?

6. If I have 200 acres and decide to sell ( some of the property ) what happens to the agreement ( contract ) with the timber that goes with that land ?

Or is the land tied up forever ?

Just some thoughts that come to my mind because
sometime contracts can be confusing and not clear.

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[Bumpus]

@OldKat 11971 wrote:

House? 😉 No ma’am! Most eared cattle don’t have the temperament to be kept in a barn. I guess if you just had just a few and you raised them real gentle like from small calves they MIGHT be calm enough to come inside. Most won’t even take to being corralled unless you have one heck of a corral; steel pipe, heavy cable wires, etc. They are generally more like wild animals than they are like domesticated cattle, at least when being handled. Usually they can be somewhat calm while out in the pasture, with no one fooling with them. Start bringing them in however and the rodeo is on.

Of course I am not talking about oxen, which I know you are into, but rather commercial cattle. Since I don’t know anyone that has ever raised one for an ox I couldn’t say how well they would take to it. I guess it can be done, because bivol has posted videos of people using them so. Interestingly though the straight bred cattle seem to be more docile than the ones that are crossed with bos Taurus cattle; they can be TOTAL idiots when you start trying to work them.

The reason of them being wild is mostly because in the U.S.A. the hump
and long eared cattle are turned loose on large tracts of land
and people do not fool with them.

People who raise and use them over seas including children,
have no real trouble with them because they tend there cattle often.
Even young children can control and work them in the fields.

It’s not the cattle themselves, it’s the ones that people turn loose and never
fool with that are wild.

Mostly in Florida all the way to California in the lower states
where it gets hot.
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[Bumpus]

@lancek 11956 wrote:

Hey bumpus
Isnt that what jason has been saying all a long?

Yes and no.

Because this man in this artical has covered other ideas and usage of taking out timber and processing.

Everyone has something extra to add, and if just one person can glean just one thing from the info, from another person, it may help them understand the possibilities better.

It is worth posting.
Because even on this forum there are different people who share different approaches and ideas on the same subject.
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[Bumpus]

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I looked and he is the same man … just email him and ask.
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[Bumpus]

@TBigLug 11921 wrote:

Check out the diamond piece on the back of his eveners in this video about 5:35 into it. Is it just a hook welded to a piece of flat steel or is there more to it?

That is what it looks like to me.
As if he has an extra way of hooking multiple logs.
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[Author]

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