[Carl Russell]

I’d have to say lifting weights can be a useful way to store energy, but would probably be most efficient if the power was used as the weights are dropping, directly to the lights say, and when no lights are needed, the weights are stopped.

If you’re going to use batteries to store the energy, then a mill set-up with a generator would make more sense. I think this is probably the best way to get good work out of the oxen anyway, because lifting the weights could be difficult to create a situation where enough weights can be stored without breaking rafters. Not to mention the inefficiencies of making the electricity, storing it, and then converting it again to use it.

With the continuous action of the mill set-up, you can work the cattle for a couple of hours, storing as much energy as you can store in your battery bank. Also with the generator, you can direct the electricity to the appliance in use, if you want to run it directly off the ox power.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

If you consider having your piles inside a structure to help keep them warm during the winter, using pigs to turn the piles can be pretty effective.

Eric and Anne Nordell have been using this method for many years with great success.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Robert MoonShadow;6180 wrote:

…….. Planning to use the bull calves as a nutrient source alone isn’t wise planning: at most, 70% of the nutrients are captured in finished compost… a net loss of a minimum of 30%……

Actually I have to say that this is probably a better return than the actual amount of the overall body that is utilized for meat.

There is a beef producer in Vermont who has all of the offal from his animals trucked back to his farm from the slaughter house so that he can compost it, getting the best of both worlds, cash for the flesh, and recapturing the nutrients that are typically considered waste.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Just a few more thoughts.

When I was just starting out, I remember trying to find a horse that would be ready to work. At that time there were not that many in the area, so I settled for “Green Broke”. I found I knew so little about what I wanted to do, that whatever “brokeness” they had was inadequate, and I spent a bunch of time figuring all that out. The more I learned about what I wanted, the better they worked. This learning curve is a hard thing to bring into the equation, but it is important, because if you do find the perfect horse, you need to be able to work with them well enough to get that out of them. I know that you (Aaron) are working hard at that.

I basically came away from that experience realizing that I don’t go looking for a horse that supposedly has had any experience. That doesn’t answer the question of trying to find a good working horse, but I’m trying to illuminate the importance of what you bring to the equation.

But the more horses you look at, and the more working teamsters you spend time with, the better idea you will have about the parameters you will set for that mythical beast. I always do that. I say “I am looking for a…., that is x years old, is just so big, walks and works like…..”. This way I can see it when I come upon it. That is the other reason for looking at many horses. Look until you find what you’re looking for.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Robert MoonShadow;6180 wrote:

……They know they’re going to have on average 50% of their calves as bulls –> they should plan to deal with that as part of their business,…. .

Yeah, basically we’re on the same page. I just saw this statement, and had to share that in the absurdity of the “modern” paradigm you can spend more money on AI pre-sexed semen. 🙁

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Aaron, start looking at them now. Make some calls, and visit them as if you are serious about buying them. Make yourself familiar with the situations that sellers create. Get to know the type of animals that are for sale in certain price ranges, or how they shape up to how they are advertised.

I am more apt to visit a lot of horses, so although Donn’s message about the vet is good, they are also costly, so save that till you are at the last stages of making the final decision. However, the eyes, possibly several sets, of those with more knowledge about what you are looking at are invaluable.

Most teamsters I know love to look at horses, even if they don’t want to buy one , so you should be able to get some takers there.

(I visit several every year, just because someone calls me looking to sell, and even though I have no intension to buy, I like to see what’s out there, and I ended up bringing home my last horse from just such an experience, because she was too good to pass up)

I happen to know that you are looking into spending some time with a farrier, use that as a perfect excuse to start appraising strange horses.

Although it is important to drive, harness, and handle the animals yourself, my preference is to see the owner do all these things first. If you want the horse to work in the woods, have the owner show you how they work the horse in the woods. It is a quick way to tell whether they are just a trader, and want you to just make an impulsive decision, or are serious teamsters themselves, and want to show you the capabilities of the horse.

Beware of this though, because an accomplished teamster can make a hand full look pretty good. The value of looking at a lot of horses without prejudice, is that if you don’t get the demonstration that you are looking for, you just leave, there will be others.

The seller doesn’t need to know that you have no intension of buying today, but who knows, you may stumble on one that you just can’t pass up. Also having one or two more experienced people with you, they can give the horse a spin for you, and get a sense of the animal.

I really can’t stress enough that getting to know how the market works, and how to appraise strange animals will be the best time spent. The mythical beast will present itself, but not if you only go to one farm looking to find it there.

This is one of the reasons why there are so many unproductive purchases every year, because the buyers are actually unprepared, and the sellers have very little pressure to change. I really believe that we need to work more on horse buyer education as a way to improve the quality of working stock on the market, as well as improving the working relationships that we are all trying to foster.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

If there is food value in an animal, then there is nutrient value as well.

Working to have a closed system of managing nutrients means that killing calves, or sick chickens, or whatever, and composting them is entirely useful way of utilizing the animal.

My perspective, although compassionate about the needs of others, is one in which the production of our farm is primarily a way to improve and accumulate available nutrients and organic matter at this particular site, as we develop a sustainable operation, and not one of transferring them through market, or charity, to someone somewhere else.

At the foundation of our management is a small scale production of livestock, so we rarely have “unwanted” animals, but if the “problem” were to arise, I would find composting the carcass preferable to trying to find someone else to benefit.

Otherwise, I could just start taking wheel barrow loads of compost into town and give them away.

Don’t get me wrong, we already share the wealth we develop here, but it really is a case by case evaluation, and one person’s “waste”, is another’s bank account.

I agree, running a farm that has as a side effect, animals and products, like bull calves from a dairy, that have little or no value makes very little sense to me, but allowing yourself to become leveraged into producing primarily for one market is the real problem. However, if farmers would realize the value that their products have right on the farm, then they wouldn’t “dump” them into markets that can’t support them. Just like too many zucchinis, toss ’em into the compost pile, and reuse them.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Like Donn, my most significant mentors pulled horses and oxen during the 60’s,70’s, and into the 80’s. They worked their animals in the woods, and on the farm, and enjoyed the camaraderie, setting a strong example of the teamster’s art. The sport used to really be a gathering of people who really enjoyed working their animals, and showing how stout they were, particularly when pulling heavy loads.

I have only tried to pull with my oxen. I used them regularly for logging, moving any load that I ever had a need to move. I never trained them for “pulling” because I was mostly interested in the work.

I was always amazed at how different it is to be in front of a crowd trying to pull concrete, as apposed to being alone in th woods trying to perform a task that has real meaning to me.

I was always really self conscious in front of all those people, and my animals were unconvinced of my leadership. I am not a competitor, and I could never really feel a lot of motivation to get them to pull.

It was a good experience though, but I really felt out of place with others who by and large ONLY work their animals when training for pulling. Not a bad bunch though, with the exception of a few knuckleheads.

It has definitely turned into a semi-professional sport around here, where very little emphasis is placed on workability. I have some interest in the farmer/logger pull, logs on a scoot, or obstacle/working classes. I think it would be great to see some more growth in this type of competition.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Goddarn you guys. I was all set to just let you have this discussion without me, but no, I had to go and make some comment about how laxidaizical I am with my fencing.

I almost even made some comment about how this time of year, my horses stay behind a knee-high fence with virtually no charge, because of poor grounding due to snow.

On the way down the drive this morning to the barn, it became apparent that there were many hoof prints tracking up the fresh snow. Fifteen minutes, and a half a mile later I found them milling around by the neighbors horse barn.

Ben Canonica is logging here with his mare, and although they generally get along, I think my horses must have boxed her into the corner by the gate, and the only way she had to go was out.

Being approachable, haltering was no problem, and I was soon back at the barn doing my chores. But I am blaming the extra 45 minutes on you.:cool:

Carl

[Carl Russell]

We use single wire perimeter. Not hi tensile, just stretched on insulators. Sometimes we double it for the calves. Single poly on fiberglass for interior paddocks, wicked simple, fast, and easy to modify.

Good hot fencer, and approachable animals seems to be the answer on this farm.

The visual barrier of the hedgerow is a key, like Erika said. Even when the moose takes it down, half the time I (or some chick visiting, out walking her dog) notice it before the horses do.

High tensile definitely lasts longer, but the outlay of cash is a real stinger.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Thanks Jean, I haven’t seen it yet. http://www.vermontlife.com/current_issue/sp09-working-landscape.htm/

Looks pretty good, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Ed,
the chains are anchored by clevises to steel plates that have an eye cut in them, and which are through bolted to the runner.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Ed, you are right the horse should be able to step over to pull the sled into a turn, especially because of the long runners. This can be accomplished with chains that allow the pole to move from side to side, but restrict complete mobility, so that the sled will follow them and not try to pass them on a down hill. I will attach some photos of my scoot with a single pole. You can easily attach shafts to a pole with a couple of 2×6 set up like an H.

The pole extends through a large ring hitched between two adjustable lengths of chain, and the end is mounted in a ring under the front bunk. This way it swivels, but doesn’t go either way too far.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Hey you guys, my love of language and the way I put together thoughts is kind of out of the context of Aaron’s thread.

However, I have an answer to those comments that will at the same time explain why there will never be a book, where I really see my creative expression having value, and also can share in the adventure that Aaron is on.

Below is a poem I wrote many years ago, not long after I started working horses, and trying to scratch out the life I had dreamed of.

It goes like this…

The Earth as my canvas,
Life is the easel,
My being the brush,
I paint my dreams.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Congratulations Dennis:)

I spent many years free of parenthood before I was blessed with this situation. The chance to pass on to our kids these skills is awe inspiring, and motivating beyond any personal reward I had ever experienced before. It will be really cool if the connection that we’ve made here can also be part of what we pass on.

Good luck, and have fun, Carl

[Author]

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