[Carl Russell]

I also think important distinction should be made about the impact of the soil ecosystem on carbon cycling. Even though Co2 is lost from a site through decomposition and respiration, the more woody debris left to the soil, the more complex the soil ecosystem becomes, so that even though carbon is not stationary, it is captured at the site while it cycles within the relationships between organisms.

The other component to that, is if all low quality woody biomass is harvested, by conventional methods, there is a burning of fuel for harvest and transport to manufacturing that creates products like paper, or energy, all of which quickly disseminates stored carbon directly into the atmosphere.

By using animal powered harvesting, non-commercial thinning, crop tree release, and growing high quality trees in highly stocked stands that are managed regularly with light strategic harvests to produce high value products that are put to use in items that are used for long term purposes, like structures, furniture, etc, then we can in fact work within the parameters of the ecological process that is actually an accumulator of carbon, thus carbon positive.

Yes, we cannot create carbon, but we can change our use of the natural process to reverse the destruction that we have begun.

No one is talking about replacing the industrial foot print, I think we are talking about changing habits to prepare for a sustainable future.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Sorry, “Across The Fence” is just a special interest program, so they don’t stream the actual interviews. We did get a DVD though, it was just Lisa and me sitting in a “homey” set answering questions about the field days following a replaying of the pre-recorded video segment. Nothing earth shattering. Thanks for the interest though.

We did get a few phone calls, and e-mails following the show, including a candidate for congress with all kinds of ideas of how we could use our event to cultivate interest among politicians. Oh yeah that’s high on our priority list!!!:rolleyes:

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Greetings Bruce, glad to have you on board. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Great ambition, welcome to the fold. We look forward to hearing more. Carl

[Carl Russell]

I definitely think that penalties need to be stiffer, because there are so many values that are damaged by timber theft beyond the dollar value as timber, such as what Jason refers to. Also the costs of estimating volume and value, investigation, and legal fees can really add up, and they need to be put on the perpetrator.

On a social note, I am always amazed that these guys actually think that they can cut the trees and pull them down to the road, and that no one will find them. Go figure.

I have investigated several of these over the years, and the accidental line crossers are almost always willing to pay damages. Unfortunately honest people can’t afford 3x stumpage either, especially if the line is poorly marked. One such situation the logger offered to pay 2x without going to court, but the LO said no, but the legal fees drowned her. I suggested shooting high (as my estimate was backed up by his records) and go for 2x, but she said I wasn’t her legal adviser, and she wanted to teach the guy a lesson. It was tragic, as it had been a beautiful stand of large white pine that her dead husband (a horse logger) had managed for years, and in her eighties it was just too overwhelming for her to grasp the details.

Volunteering to align with a group is a good idea, to some extent, but like all certification programs it ends up creating costs external to the purpose, ie. supplying superior forestry services.

I really feel that the grouping has to include landowners, foresters, sawmillers, as well as loggers that commit to standards of excellence so that the forest products can be sold at the premium they deserve. Otherwise, again as Jason point out, there is no financial incentive to exceed the norm that the market supports.

At 08 NEAPFD we will have a roundtable discussion exploring this issue on a regional basis. How do we in the NE do what HHFF/draftwood has been doing, to present what we do in the light it deserves, and as a group, get paid for it.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

In VT the penalty for timber trespass is treble stumpage, based on an estimate of relative saw log value at current regional stumpage prices paid, that’s it. All other fees are paid out of that settlement. There are very few cases these days, with lawyers fees what they are, that can justify the expense. Carl

[Carl Russell]

dominiquer60;2576 wrote:

…….
-Should the NYS Dept of Environmental Conservation do a formal study on timber theft similar to the 2007 Milk Hauling study?
It was noted that there is no picture of the economic impact it has on the forestry industry or private land owners in NYS, and that it certainly does happen.

-Should timber harvesters be required to have a license to operate in NYS, which would also require the filing of cutting plans and the notification of abutting land owners for each harvest?
It is noted that this is possible response to prevent timber theft, and to keep the integrity of the industry and protect landowners.

-Should timber mills be required to keep a bill of sale log book on file containing the source of timber purchased from a harvester that includes landowner contact info?
This is another thought on how to keep track of timber in the case of theft.
…..

The formal study is very important, because the issue has to get on the policy radar. At least in VT timber trespass is so under-appreciated that although it is a crime. it is so expensive to prosecute that landowners rarely proceed. Timber harvesters who steal timber can spend the money and rarely have any left when they are found guilty, so that all the landowner gets is a lien on the loggers assets. In VT the penalty is treble stumpage, which after lawyers fees is very little in compensation for well laid plans for future harvest, family ties to a well managed stand, or aesthetic value. But before penalties can be increased there has to be an increase in public awareness about this problem. Of course in this day most people don’t own land, or timber, so they have very little ability to understand without significant exposure.

Licensed loggers? There are pros and cons, but it won’t necessarily affect timber trespass. A crook with a license is still a crook. From my own perspective the effort to license, homogenizes the principles that practitioners operate under. I have striven my entire professional life to practice principles that are superior to so many other woods operators, but if I had a license (which I never will) then I would float among the masses with no differentiation. This option is floated very often by people wanting a top-down control on the industry. I would sooner endorse public education and the empowering of the resources of the State/County Forester system, so that there are affordable competent resources available to landowners looking for guidance about forestry and timber harvesting.

If there are stiffer penalties for timber trespass then there will need to be ways to track the product from stump to mill so the mills should be a good place for those record to be kept. If loggers know that their tracks will not get covered by the process of selling logs then they will have to think twice. The state may have to find a creative way to make it financially attractive to mills though, otherwise there is another level of regulation.

Great work Erika, Carl

[Carl Russell]

On Friday September 12, during the noon time news on WCAX Channel 3, on the “Across The Fence” segment (generally between 12:12pm and 12:30pm) they will air a studio interview of Lisa and I reviewing the short video clip discussed above, and talking about the upcoming Northeast Animal-Power Field Days. I’m pretty sure that people who are out of broadcast range can view the news on their website at http://www.wcax.com/

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Biological Woodsman;2572 wrote:

…….Skidding on the ground is dangerous, primitive, old fashioned, hillbilly, backwards,
inefficient, environmentally damaging ….., and much harder on your horses, mules or oxen. ……….The operation of a logging arch is safer, more efficient and modern. ……Yet knowing all that to be absolutely true – we still skid on the ground sometimes. Short skids on step ground can be quickly bunched downhill to be forwarded with an arch to the landing. But you better know what you are doing and have a great animal to work with. …..

Just want to throw out there a bit of caution about these statements. I know they are intended to encourage people to take horse logging to new levels of professionalism and proficiency, and I also believe that the logging arch can be a significant aspect of that.

However, I absolutely endorse working horses with loose rigging, especially one, in the woods, particularly twitching. In our area, in multi-aged softwood, and mixed wood stands there are many instances where a single horse can be applied like a surgeons scalpel. And when you are good at it, it is like a dance with a life-long partner.

There has to be along with this, an understanding of the limitations, so that this technique is not misused as Jason suggests. And I agree that it has been the method employed for many years by folks looking for quick and dirty performance.

As well, the use of other implements like sleds contribute to the toolbox of the “modern” horse-logger, making for the flexible and capable operator that we all need to strive to be if we want to present animal powered timber harvesting as a viable consideration in these modern times.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Nope, but the price is pretty low. I wouldn’t buy a leather harness without laying hands on it.
Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have found that the equipment is not nearly as important as the understanding of the work that is to be done. Jumping over moving logs while trying to drive a team of horses on a skid trail is asking for trouble. Stop them step over the log, reposition yourself, and go again. If the above is any indication of your training in the woods you will have problems no matter what you employ for equipment in the woods.

I have used wheeled rigs in the woods for over twenty years, and found them to be very useful, safe, providing superior protection against soil disturbance. However, I have ground skidded a lot of logs as well, and used sleds and other devices. I say it isn’t as simple as one versus the other, it’s about working horses, or oxen in the woods, and the conditions dictate many of the solutions.

Just a quick aside to the above. I used my oxen for years in the woods on the same log cart that I use for my horses, and found it to be very handy, although pound for pound there is nothing more convenient and maneuverable in the woods than a pair of cattle with yoke only.

One of the features that I really enjoy about using a cart is that I have saw, peavey, extra chain, a tool box, personal safety equipment, choker puller, etc. right there at arms length. That can make all the difference in a day’s work.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

The Swap Meet is a private sale situation, like a flee market. For a fee of $25 anyone can bring equipment to be placed at the site under the overhanging shed roof near the food area, where they can put their name and price on the piece. It is up to those who bring items to arrange for contacts about buying or selling.

Donations to the event are welcome, but we do not want to have equipment left over for us to move, or dispose of. So Take What Ya Brung!! We will accept cash donations, or good tools/equipment to include in the door prize or raffle drawing.

Thanks for the interest.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

BachelorFarmer;2515 wrote:

Let me speak as a practical farmer. ……

If there is not sufficient “good” desirable plants already existing in the field with which to produce seed, then the gradual reseeding described by others will not work. You can only make so many silk purses out of one sows ear… A really cheap method is just to use a hand spinner seeder and buy some grass seed and fling it on in the pious hope that a small percentage might catch…. The key is to kill the weeds first. I tend to think as a farmer who rotates crops and grows a variety of things. Sometimes an old weedy sod like you describe NEEDS breaking up as it has become “sod bound” ….. The soil needs oxygen to be healthy, when it is hardpan and compacted with big weeds sucking the life out of it, then sometimes a total shakeup is all that will rejuvenate it. ……

I appreciate what BF is saying here, especially because he shares a common perspective of farming the crop and not the soil.

The relation ship between soil, plants, and animals has been established for an extremely long time. The success of the many species of grazing animals on this earth is the result of ecological factors of soil biology that are supported by that relationship.

If the only concern is a fully stocked crop of a few highly preferred species, then intensive cropping is a quick way to get there. However, using chemical herbicides, and plowing only serve to interrupt the ecological processes of soils biology.

The fact of the matter is that there are a lot of “unfavorable” plants that grazers will consume that they will use to their advantage. Allowing plants to die on the stump, so to speak, either from grazing, or from clipping will contribute organic material in the form of roots directly to the soil, while feeding soil organisms that enhance the overall function of the soil through their own consumption and production of enzymes, etc.

Having animals cover the ground breaks up sod, distributes nutrients, and cultivates, or retards, the growth of plants, all without the use of fossil fuels, or highly costly equipment.

There is also a huge body of experience that broad casting seed of desirable species in conjunction with grazing is in fact very effective.

By using methods that enhance and cultivate soil biological function, the desired crop CAN be developed, at the same time developing healthy soil. Healthy soil is the primary aspect of having healthy animals.

It takes time, especially on soils in which that biology has been disturbed.
But employing quick disruptive methods, only serves to perpetuate a cultivation process that requires continued intensive techniques, requiring energy intensive technologies, with financially and ecologically costly inputs.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Plowboy, great to see you again!!
I know terms like that drive me nuts, they don’t educate any body, just warm and fuzzy. Green in a true sense means nothing, it’s just a modern marketing term that is intended to lead people to their own conclusions so that they FEEL good about it. And Friendly?? Where are the standards in that?

I think the only cause they are trying to advance is their own. Finding funders. Make people feel good about giving money to support their efforts.

Thanks for the heads up. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Any time on the seed, but soil moisture is a good addition, ie. spring-early summer gives the growing season for establishment. Also hooves break up the sod and expose bare dirt for seed to take hold. Cows won’t do much for golden rod, but mowing or clipping following grazers will nail it in just a few seasons, cut before seeds develop. Good luck with the goats. Carl

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