[Carl Russell]

Donn, I won’t contradict anything you say.

My horses are used for everything from cultivating potatoes to pulling sled-loads of logs. My expectations for them are to be willing working partners. I do not condition their training to any particular task, only to the working communication. I say that it is not logging/farming with horses, it’s working horses (or cattle for that matter) in the woods, or in the field.

I expect only the necessary power exertion from the animals in conjunction with the current working situation. If they have to give all they got to lift a loaded sled over a rise in the trail, then I expect them to stop when asked and to immediately calm down, and wait till next I ask them. They learn to push into the collar, and they can tell pretty quickly whether they will have to exert a lot of power or not. Even still, they are aware of how much I am giving them on the bit, so that power does not equal foolishness. I still require specific directional responses as we typically don’t have a lot of room, and there are always obstacles.

In the field, mowing or cultivating where exertion is less, I expect them to respond according to my direction through the lines and bit.

I think that more often than not there are people who are horse-loggers, or horse-farmers, and in those situations there may be habitual differences, as animals and teamsters get used to particular exertion levels. My inclination is to take on a broad range of working situations, because I believe that the animals are capable of, and ideally suited for it. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Donn, in a way your response gets at the heart of my question. In the situation that you describe, as well as Kristin’s description of her run-away, it seems as though the animal is under control with a certain degree of leverage, but can’t remain a relaxed worker when the pressure is reduced.

My intent with the bit is to have a back and forth pressure/release “conversation” with my horse. Using bit pressure to elicit response from the horse, and reward or correction with corresponding subtle changes in line pressure, the horse learns to depend on, and trust that connection/conversation.

It seems to me at a certain point the lever bit says “end of conversation”! So when the lever bit is changed or removed, the horse has developed a habit, but not an understanding, and challenges the new situation, back to where the conversation stopped.

Every situation is different. This is why it is a craft, we all can make judgments and adjustments. We find what works for us. From my perspective I really only know what I experience, and I know that I can’t truly appreciate your experiences. I am just curious, because bits tend to be a common topic, with so many choices, that I want to broaden my understanding. Carl

[Carl Russell]

At present Earthwise Farm and Forest is a lot more forest than farm. When my grandfather bought this place there were fields all around the house and barn, but being post-depression they had fallen into neglect. As he was of failing health and knew that he would not be able to rebuild the farm, he planted thirty acres to white and red pine, and norway spruce.

So, as of now we move our cattle and horses around to fields in the neighborhood. Beside the moving time, this is not the most efficient way to manage animals, nor pasture.

The plantations are 60 years old now, and I have been improving them over the last twenty years to where there is a large concentration of high quality trees throughout. We have just started the planning process to return the entire area back to agricultural use.

We intend to clearcut sections 5-10 acres at a time. We will then follow with a livestock rotation including pigs, poultry, cattle and horses, to create pasture and hay land, that will be one large centrally located area on our own farm.

This will have to be another pasture-cam project. Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have never use a lever bit so I have some questions. I have always assumed that they were developed for multiple hitches, where holding eight (or more) horses would make for a lot of line pressure. To reduce that and to maintain adequate mouth pressure for control the bit was developed to provide the leverage reduction.

That being my understanding (right or wrong), I assume that the use of lever bits is more about reducing line pressure than reducing mouth pressure as the teamster always has some leverage advantage over the horses mouth.

This may or may not be bad, but my objective with line pressure is to come to a one-on-one pressure/release relationship with the horse. I acknowledge that it can be a lot of effort sometimes to present adequate pressure to a learning horse, but with a straight bit I feel the very slightest acceptance, and therefore I can provide an immediate release/reward that matches exactly what I feel in my hands.

I’m curious if this can be accomplished with the lever bit? Is there ever a time when the lever bit is replaced?

I guess my questions rise from talk that I have heard from people who seem to subscribe to the conquer and control point of view, and promote the lever bit as perfect for this.

That is not what I have read here, but I think that it is important that we make sure that the teamster craft rises to the level of subtlety it requires. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Hey everyone, this forum has got to be about more than hooves and harnesses, so discussion about all aspects of a full rural land-based life are accepted and expected.

As far as creating another Category, I will suggest that you just start a Thread with an appropriate title, and keep it active. Categories are just loose general folders to keep the Threads organized in.

Sustainable Farming should be able to encompass animal power, pasture management, hand milking, and on-farm slaughter (or whatever).

Keep up the great effort. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Rod, There is a Books/Resources Category in Et Cetera. I think that we should try to use that category for any discussion of that type. As you say it will help to keep these important kernels from getting buried, but it won’t guarantee it. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Sounds about right, 16.2 1700 lbs, deep chest, although the Belgians that I have are a little longer bodied. I like to see the front feet solidly on the ground, with good snap with each step. Pasterns parallel. A good crested neck with prominent shoulder. I also like to see a soft eye in a well proportioned head. I’m not offended by a Roman nose, but I like to see a high spin-curl, to top it off. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Now you’re getting clever!! Carl

[Carl Russell]

Rod, in Nova Scotia they drive their cattle from the side as well. I drive my cattle while working them from in front for the very reasons you guessed. Oxen have been used by millions of individuals for thousands of years, there is no ONE way to drive them, only the way that works for you. You ought to keep with some standard expectations in terms of command response, but use your own ideas and abilities to get the cattle to perform to your needs. This is what I, and others, mean by driving/working your cattle. You take the goad, or whip. You take the initiative. You set the pace, by whatever means you deem necessary. Otherwise, they will!!!

It may be well worth your while to seek out some active experienced teamsters, such as Howie. Also Tim Huppe of Berry Brook Ox Supply and Sanborn Mills Farm is an excellent resource, as he offers oxen workshops, and knows who’s doing what as far as oxen are concerned. Also nearer to home, there is Terry Chamberlin in Pomfret. At this point I am not working my steers enough to be able to offer you much experience. Now that you have begun to put together a picture of some of the challenges, you may benefit from experiencing others working cattle. Carl

[Carl Russell]

I say, since this is my initiative, I am the one who is responsible for being trustworthy, not the animal. We can waste a lot of time and energy trying to get others to gain our trust, like our trust would be a reward that would mean something to them. Animals, and human animals, will respond positively when you show that you are trustworthy. That gesture is a true reward.

Not trusting an animal does not have to be the same as distrusting them. By not trusting them, you are not allowing yourself the complacency that can lead to misunderstanding, and miscommunication. Working with animals is often characterized as a partnership. It needs to be a partnership where we are the responsible trustworthy initiator.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

A couple other thoughts came to me about workshops.

Liability is unfortunately a realism that we have had to cobb together the best we can. In Vermont there is a law that provides some cover, declaring that participants in equine events are liable for their own safety due to the inherent danger in such an enterprise. At our workshops we also have a waiver that each person signs to accept the responsibility for their own safety, and the well being of their belongings. There is nothing affordable in terms of day event insurance, or attachments to home-owners, so we just try to lay it out there, “this is dangerous, we have no way to guarantee your capability, you’re on your own, or don’t come”. Sort of, in a soft way.

As far as beginner skills, I really have a hard time with letting people drive my animals until they have gone through the fundamentals of my “skills of the work” workshops. I know that it seems paramount that people lay hands on leather before they know anything else. To me that is putting the cart before the horse, so to speak.

When I learned, I made a lot of mistakes, as Donn has said, and others, we all have, but mine were with my own horses. I have never had an old plug that didn’t need to be driven, who I could trust more than the beginner. I don’t make a habit of trusting horses anyway, so that puts my trust in the beginner even lower. That is not to say that beginners don’t need guidance and encouragement, but it is a fine line to walk when considering beginner teamster training.

My horses are ready to work. They need to be driven. When the lines tighten, you want to know what you expect from them, and you want to know how to make any corrections. I see no reason for having working animals that aren’t primed like that. They don’t start till spoken to, they work at an appropriate gait, and they stop and stand like rocks, but they want to be driven. This is the kind of animals that people should learn to drive, and that is extremely difficult, or impossible, to accomplish in a one-day workshop, nor should it be attempted. These animals would take advantage of beginners.

So as much as cost is a factor, cost will always be a factor. Whether you buy a green horse and skin your knees all over the back forty, or go pay for a week long working experience, you’re going to pay. As instructors we need to remember our responsibility, and use our understanding of the journey to construct an educational experience that truly guides the student, rather than trying to sculpt a class that will meet the desires of the novice.

I watch my children at their Tae Kwon Do class work and work and work at forms for weeks before the “MASTER” allows them to try breaking a board. Fundamentals, Fundamentals, Fundamentals. You gotta build the foundation before you can put on the roof. It is just my opinion, but that is what I try to provide with workshops at Earthwise Farm & Forest. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Donn, I too have gotten to the point of having workshops on the farm. I truly believe that one of the most valuable products we have is our experience. This is not a money maker, however I decided to go this way because after a while dealing with one-on-one situations take a lot of time. By bringing 8-12 people together at once allows me to concentrate the effort, and makes it more effective for the participants because they feed off each other.

We had a horse logging weekend here a couple of years ago with about sixty people, six teamsters, and 6-8 volunteers. We had a lot of enthusiasm, but it became obvious, as you found out that a gathering that size is more social and less educational. Not that it isn’t educational, it’s just as you said, whetting the appetite.

So my solution was to go to the smaller set. I developed a three day series focusing on working situations that were on-going here. In our case they were a progression through the various aspects of working animals in the woods. I was much more pleased with the ability we had to focus on particulars.

I have not been working on teamster training, only on the skills associated with the work. This is not a sexy as letting people drive, but I’m not interested in teaching that. I know the difficulty and time that it took to gain the skill set that I do have, and I think that it is important to share that with those who seek it. I have been pleased with the way that emphasis has attracted focused individuals.

Of course with workshops, you need to remember parking, access, health issues, toilet, food, water, safety, adequate clothing, and help.

We charge $50/day and gave a discount for signing up for all three days. I waffle about cost, because it is like everything else, where do the factors come from that make up the cost? If it costs too much, people won’t be interested, but if it doesn’t cost enough they won’t take it seriously, and you won’t be adequately compensated.

And as you found out last fall we decided that if your going to have a social event around animal-powered farming and forestry, you might as well go big.

Good Luck, and keep in touch, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Mike, it occurred to me while milking this morning, many things come to me while milking, that you may have been referring to stallions when you wrote “geldings may retain too much maleness”, or something like that. Stallions are uncut, can be used for breeding, also can be directed by their hormonal drive, but many people work them, even next to mares they breed. In fact, it is often thought of as the best way to keep them handleable and in good shape. I however have no experience with stallions, and will leave comments about such to others.

Geldings on the other hand have been castrated, interrupting hormonal development. This is still no guarantee that the animal won’t be potentially difficult. I have worked geldings with geldings, and geldings with mares, and mares with mares, and there are always differences between animals that will be part of learning to work them.

I also started out with some idea that I would be able to reproduce my power system by having a mare on board. I have owned her for twenty years, and never came close to getting her bred. This is because there are lots and lots of good healthy horses out there, that don’t require find a good sire, pregnant mare management, and the other aspects to a good breeding program.

I question breeding programs designed purely on breed name. Those people who are truly advancing the gene pool of draft breeds have many years of experience, not only in horse breeding, but more importantly, in the application of the traits that they breed for into real working situations.

This is not to say that down the line you could be such a horse breeder, it may be something good to set your sights on, but I would suggest focusing more on affordable horses that you can put to work in your enterprise.
Carl

[Carl Russell]

@LeatherneckPA 634 wrote:

n what exactly is a “hand”? …….

And then there is the question of the term “grade”.

Could a draft or a team be used to drive a wagon 10 miles to town and back in a reasonable amount of time?

Drawing a sulky plow is probably a team effort, but how about mowing, raking, drawing the haywagon, a harrow or a cultivator?

Are a pair of geldings a viable team? Or do they retain enough male tendencies to make that an undesirable mix?

A hand is 4″, broken into 4 parts, therefore 16.2 hands is 66″ (16 x 4, + 2″), the .2 is not a decimal point.

Grade is fundamentally not registered, however most people refer to any mix or mongrel as “Grade”, whereas a purebred unregistered animal will probably breed true, but being unregistered there is no guarantee.

Team can definitely get you to town and back.

Geldings in a team are excellent, can mix and match with mares as well. All the chores you list would be good for a team. You will find a lot of work for the single horse as well.

Good questions. We really appreciate the honest student. It is a really good place to start. Carl

[Carl Russell]

If you scroll to the bottom of the forum home page you will see a listing of upcoming events, 60 days out. This is a chronological listing of events that are posted on the calendar page. Please feel free to post events on the calendar. Thanx, Carl

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