[Carl Russell]

Even though we call them a team, it is still two individual animals, and you. You have to drive each animal. When you move quickly to the yoke, because this is what you see everyone doing, sometimes one steer, often the off one, will begin to get independent. Trying to remedy the situation while yoked as a team can lead to frustration. Go back to basics and work on instilling the behavior you want. There is nothing wrong with working on the basics, it is what will guide success later on. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Welcome Mike, or is it Jack?:D Sounds like you’re on a good track. We run a small farm such as you describe, replacing the goats with Jerseys. I think the type of horse is immaterial, but the animal power will be a god mix at that scale. Good luck, and join in the discussions. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Rod, there is very often difficulty with the off steer, because he doesn’t get the same attention and the nigh. Take him back out by himself in the halter and develop a relationship with him. If he’s bully, don’t take it for one second. It’s his nature, but do you want to fight, or work? He needs to know fighting is going nowhere for him.

However, in a team I liked having the off steer a little hotter than the nigh one. You can always get to the nigh one if you need to so drive the off steer. Pay more attention to him, and let him know your talking to HIM. You might like a whip with a long lash on it. I do. Carl

[Carl Russell]

James, I think most of us understand clearly that you were looking for discussion, not answers. I think every contributor to this forum is pretty comfortable with their own decision making process, and we are participating here because of the enhancement that group can bring to individual.

I am sorry that you feel uncomfortable with some of the responses you’ve gotten.

DAP’ers, please remember that these discussions can only reveal the very surface of the individuals who post them, and we have no way of understanding the extenuating circumstances without being patient and polite.

James, I was pleased to see you bringing Off-Topic discussion. I think that we need to have a place here for us to flesh out aspects of our lives other than those associated with hooves and harnesses. Please feel free to continue. Carl

[Carl Russell]

I must say that my comments about tenacity have more to do with the serious commitment to the effort, then they do with evaluating the safety of an animal.

The eyes of experience will give you some advantage in this regard. I just get a little concerned that beginners often open themselves to “help” that shows them lots of tricks and skills gleaned from that experience. This can be somewhat helpful in that it sets an example of what they may shoot for. But it does little good to further the commitment, or the connection between teamster and animal. You can get a lot better example by watching or working with your experienced teamster(s) with their animals. There is very little gain, in my mind, of others working with your animal, mostly because it is a replacement for the partnership that you are supposed to be striving for.

As much as assistance can be good, I work under guidance that I’ve gotten from several mentors who grew up when working with animals was the only way. There is very little nonsense in these bits of wisdom. Many of these are sort of outside the current box of understanding, because culture has changed, but if working animals is the objective, then the guidance should come from that place in history when it was put into practice.

One of those insights was handed to me by a man who grew up driving horses for all tasks from plowing to over the road transport. “If you want to drive the horse over the bridge, then don’t get off and lead him, drive him”.
Admittedly the way you get to the point where you can drive them without leading them is somewhat vague, but his point is that there is a purpose for your enterprise which requires a clear commitment to protocol. If there is difficulty performing the task, then you will have more long term success if you adhere to the protocol, then if you look for the easier solution.

I realize that the ‘burbfarm situation has several layers of interest/involvement, but it sounds to me like there needs to be some more serious thought to the actual benefit to having working animals. Perhaps the best solution would to be take advantage of situations such as your habitat clearing to bring in experienced teamsters with working animals to set a good example of the application of animal power.

Meanwhile get someone whose only responsibility is working with the drafts, and developing enterprises for them. Then set a budget for that individual to spend the time attending apprenticeships such as at HHFF, or Fair Winds Farm, and other places where the learning curve can get the attention it deserves. Realistically, one way or the other, several years are the least that would need to be intensively invested. There is very little value in the example of animal power on an educational farm, if it doesn’t raise the bar in terms of practicality.

There are always financial limits in any operation, but as many of us have experienced, there is a lot of learning. If the ‘burbfarm is serious about the concept then they, and all beginners in my mind, need to understand the commitment, intellectually, physically, and financially, that is required. Whether you put it together in between other work, a bit at a time, or as a lump-sum tuition-like investment, it is the same amount of serious hard work.
Carl

[Carl Russell]

I understand what Eric is getting at. This truly is one of the most difficult aspects to getting started with draft animals. I have to iterate though that you want to avoid trying to replace the points that Jason and I were making by getting yourself a “trusting horse”. If the horsemanship and working understanding are not a significant part of the endeavor the trust will fail to be enough.

Please understand that I got started because I met an old horse logger, a man who had dragged harnesses into the manger as an 11 year old, and had taken on his first log job at 13, who told me if I wanted to log with horses I should buy one and get logging. This is not the advice I share, but I bumped and bounced and struggled, and I know from experience what I was doing wrong.

I am not suggesting that anybody go to work with a renegade, but I never have given up on any animal, and I have been validated for my sheer tenacity, and yes the subtly that I learned. The old mare I’ve had for 20 years, I bought with a 1 month trial. By the end of that month I was so mad at her for MY lack of understanding that I bought her because I swore she’ld never leave my farm. I still use her to this day, to my advantage.

There are many paths in the journey down this slope, or up this peak.
Carl

[Carl Russell]

Howie, how thick was the ice? How do they cut and transport it? Is the ice house underground? Do they use sawdust to pack the blocks in? Ice has been for a long time one of the items I’ld like to harvest on our farm. Carl

[Carl Russell]

How does $4.00+/gal Fuel factor into the OTR plan? My log trucker has got his truck for sale. He has to charge too much for most of his old regular loggers. I pass the cost directly onto the landowner so I don’t dicker with him, but I’m not going to keep him in the business all by myself. Good Luck, Carl

[Carl Russell]

I second all that Jason explains above.

It is important to know the difference between having the horse respond positively to your command, and having the horse do what you want them to do. Being trusted and respected by the horse, the animal will respond to your initiative. Being a horse, they can never intellectualize the task that you intend to accomplish with them.

Knowing the tendencies of horses, and oxen I might add, gives you the advantage in that you can allow them to move, or respond, in the way that they are naturally inclined to. Meanwhile you are correcting, or guiding them with the simple command-based communication that you have developed with them.

This is the point where I have to chime in with what I consider the most important part of being a working teamster, as apposed to being a training teamster. It is the work. I feel that before we attempt to do any work with animals, not only do we need to know how to work with them in the command/response way, but we need to know the work.

The concentration required to perform a working relationship with an animal requires that we are not distracted by uncertainty about the task at hand. As Jason points out, the animal is looking for a leader who they can trust and respect. No animals, including humans, will trust or respect the body language of uncertainty.

The other way that knowing the work is important is in assessing the particular task that is assigned to the animal power. The expectation needs to be reasonable, and in line with the experience/capability of the animal, or whatever trust there was will be completely undone.

I think you will get farther with your “difficult” horse with no college potential when you get a clear picture of what you want to do, and how you are going to do it with him. As long as you are looking at him and his apparent limitations as the measure of what you may not be able to do, that is exactly what you will do, or not do.

I have never had any of my horses go to college ( the old mare is 29, and I’ve had her for 20 years), yet I have been doing many successful endeavors with them for a long time. The animal will only be as capable as you expect him to be. Carl

[Carl Russell]

@lynn miller 16 wrote:

……the best animals are those who are worked regularly and who are always in training. …….

The same thing may be said of us as farmers, only we are in charge of our own training. …….. Tedium will tempt us to cut corners, to court the more simply predictable at the expense of the magic that did and will and could motivate us.

I still choose to depend on draft horses as motive power for the farming. I never tire of them or the nature of my working partnership. It is always fresh and intriguing. ……..

This is at the root of what I find so attractive about using draft animals. I stopped a long time ago trying to “train” my animals. I am always trying to respond to the situation at hand , the moment. I don’t want to have animals that are without spirit or motivation, so I don’t concentrate on rehearsed expectations.

What I do concentrate on is communication. I expect that my animals learn to listen to me, and to trust me when I give commands. I never assume that they have any predictable coarse of action. Therefore I have to be completely alert and aware of not only the working situation, but also aware of them and their re/actions.

We are always working to improve communication as we are working. The work is being accomplished in the moment as I am appraising the situation, and then communicating to the animals the appropriate action. There is no room for tedium. It is always fresh.

This kind of experience can be had with machinery or tools as well. I know that many people, including myself, feel invigorated by the momentary mental and physical actions required to perform tasks with tools and machines.

There is a difference however when working with living beasts, as they have no gears, throttle, or key, and they do have sensitivity, brains, and heart. It may not be the measure of success, or sustainability, but it sure is intriguing and rewarding to be involved in that organic mechanism of communication.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Welcome LaNette, you have an interesting use of draft power. It is great to have you on board, and we’re looking forward to your description of situations you run into out there. Jump on in. Carl

[Carl Russell]

James, I only have experience with honey bees, and one or two hives for personal use. I always have a hard time buying into any investment scheme. I question whether the market will really be there when the hives mature. I called it the IF/Then syndrome. Those kinds of things never work out for me. I am much more comfortable with a steady production of small to moderate quantities of goods to be sold as soon as they are produced, ie. logs, wood. potatoes, milk, eggs, etc.. But thats just me. I’m not sure about OTR, I’m pretty active and could never see myself sitting still that much. Good luck. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Jason, So HHFF owns your own truck? So your cost/percentage goes to cover that as well?

I know that we all have to uphold our own level of honesty and intention, and that a person is only as good as their word, but for some reason when I got into this I was very sensitive to the appearance of conflict of interest. I realize the benefit, to both landowner and logger, of incentive to the harvester to produce the most valuable product for market. The reason I have never used a percentage is that I find it difficult to determine that place where the incentive to produce highly marketable saw-timber is different from the incentive to cut the best trees.

This is no reflection on the quality forestry delivered by HHFF, or many other firms, it is merely my own sense of comfort in describing my own services.

I like the straight line, flat rate approach because every cost is explainable in per thousand board feet. Black and white. This is only important because there has been for years, at least around here, a significant negative judgment about forester/loggers. I also find it to be an advantage because I have a completely different approach than other loggers and foresters, so I present myself in my own terms. No peers, no competition. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Welcome ‘burbfarm. We are excited to have you here looking for guidance. I think we need to know where you are located before anyone can respond to your site visit need. Anyway throw in your two cents and we can see if we arre any help to you. Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Biological Woodsman 387 wrote:

……..
Sliding Scale Pay System

…… We sometimes start to pay at 250, …. At 250 per thousand we pay thirty percent to the landowner. Then the sliding scale starts. At $400.00 per thousand we pay 40%…..

Jason, are these percentages of mill price, or based on the landing price?

Carl

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