[Carl Russell]

@Mark Cowdrey 170 wrote:

Just had my team shod for the winter last week. …… it is important that I not be limited by icey or slippery conditions.
……….This year, at the suggestion of Meg R., I had him put “snow rims” on the fronts to help reduce balling. John also said he has had good luck W/ them. I had figured they would go all around, but J. said the fronts, being rounder, seem to ball worse and suggested just doing them. Thinking back, I seem to recall that that was so, that I had had to knock out the fronts more often. So far so good, though we haven’t had any sticky stuff yet.

Thoughts? Comment? Other methods?

For the first time in over twenty years, my horses came into the barn this morning with their feet all balled up. Six inch ice balls. I’ve encountered balls when working them, and I’ve seen ice build up in the shoe before, but never like that.

We have had lots of good dry snow, and sub-zero temp, but nothing very unusual. The one thing that I do notice that is different this year is that the seepy places are still very wet, with standing water in some places. Under this blanket of snow they are not freezing, and I wonder if the ground condition affects the quality of the snow.

Working them in the woods yesterday we had no balls, even though we have to cross an area of unfrozen mud and running water.

My problem yesterday was more the clumps of frozen snow on the branches of the pines I was tryingto fell. 5 thousand pounds of tree standing, can’t get any momentum to fall, so I buried three wedges, and still it stands. I cut two others marked nearby that looked to be part of the problem, and still it stands. Another day for the record books. Carl

[Carl Russell]

As physical beings, we have a need to be physically active. More than just active, involved. Physically involved in our lives. Involved in the life around us.

If each of us alive today,
laid hands upon our very lives,
what a garden we would have.
Eden.

As much as our minds are powerful enough to use up huge amounts of energy, our bodies are designed to physically manifest our intentions. When we practice the intellectual-isation of our lives, we rob ourselves of the true human experience. As our mind is stimulated by the environment around us, we must respond or interact through our physical body. Each one of us has different experiences, different physical make-up, and different abilities. When we involve ourselves physically in the life around us, our actions are personal, individual, expressions of SELF.

From Kidergarten to the Corporate Ladder, to the Church or politics, or to the sports arena, we live in a culture where our involvement in the life around us is orchestrated to meet expectations. Most of our energy is directed at trying to meet the expectations that will help us attain status. If we can’t attain status, then there is a stigma of inadequacy. Then our involvement in the life around us has been taken away. There are others more capable that will do it for us. We work for them, cheer for them, vote for them.

As personally, physically involved, expressive beings we are sovereign individuals. As we personally respond to our physical needs, we claim our sovereignty. As we contribute to our family and community with the physical skills and limitations that are the result of our own life experience we truly fulfill our human potential.

A physical Life is an artistic expression. Living is an art. It’s like a dance where each person brings to the floor their own step. There is no need to be threatened because we each have the opportunity to fully express ourselves. As we free ourselves through creative physical endeavor, we validate the similar efforts and contributions of our mates and neighbors.

A culture of people like this will embrace the woman with knowledge and skills of laundry. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Simon, I use D-ring harnesses which put all the tongue weight on the jack saddle, so the horse carries it on their back. On rough ground the tongue will sway some but the shoulder is not affected as there is only constant draft (90* to the shoulder) from the front trace which is held firm as adjusted with jack saddle straps and belly girt. If the traces are hitched tight, as they should be there will not be a lot of sloppy swaying anyway. As far as maneuverability, I use a short pole, so that the traces are hitched in the first link on the heel chains, and the front hold backs are short enough so that the yoke is under the horses noses. This way if they can get their nose past an obstacle then the pole will not hit. Also the neck yoke has to be compact so that the ring does not extend too far. I use a yoke made from an old spread chain with pipe welded in, instead of wood, so I wrap the chain around the pipe to shorten the depth of the yoke.

Jason sent the photos of your forwarder. Now that’s a logging rig!!! I will try to attach them here. I haven’t had the time to explore all the options, but I know it can be done. Carl

[Carl Russell]

In the early ’80’s I started logging with a high lead system that had been developed by Gerry Hawkes of VT, through a grant from the USDA Forest Service. We leased the machine from the Green Mountain National Forest and sold logs from several jobs that had been developed for that machine. It was quite an education about where costs are and how they play out in logging, and producing for the timber market. We were young professionals who studied intently the entire process. When it came to marketing we worked very hard to cut and sell exactly the product desired by each different mill. Boy things were different then. There were no concentration yards, and many more mills, and we could really gain from cutting for grade and sorting to different markets ourselves. We found that we completely controlled the monetary difference between stumpage and landing price by the development of skill and understanding. We also found that even as green-horns, by maximizing grade we were not cut off as quickly as other loggers, including the mills own crews.

From 1983-86 I worked in a log yard as scaler, then procurement forester. It was there that I really began to understand the ins and outs of logging economics. From that vantage point I got to see many different relationships between foresters, loggers, truckers, landowners, and mills. As I had alwaus intended to run my own small scale forestry & logging firm, I was serious about the opportunity to examine the process. This is when I clearly saw that speculation was the name of the game. Foresters were using the guise of their title to mark sales that seemed to address forestry, but were actually driven by commercial interests. They advertised the product to attract the most aggressive bidder, then tried to hold them at bay as they thrashed their way through as quickly as possible in an effort to recoup the ridiculously high price they agreed to pay. Landowners were convinced to look at the stumpage checks not at the residual forest, and at the sawmill we were forced to do battle with them all because quality was disregarded for quantity.

As I contemplated setting out on my own again, I began to develop a method that I felt would address many of these issues, including the possible conflict of interest that arises any time you mix consultant forester with logger. I have been operating under these terms since 1986.

As a forester I am committed to improving the wooded resource, no matter who owns it. This is my primary service. My primary product is the residual forest. If a landowner has no appreciation for this, there are many other options. Recognizing that machinery operations require acre after acre, it didn’t take me long to settle on a low-out-put system, draft animals.

I see no reason to leave low grade trees in the woods, especially when competing with crop trees, but I do not believe that it is the responsibility of the timber harvester to compromise their standard of living to charitably remove the low-grade component. Similarly, I don’t believe that it is entirely appropriate for the harvester to capitalize on the highest quality trees either.
Mix in the potential conflict of advising landowners during harvest and making income from the harvest at the same time, and things can get confusing.

By establishing a flate rate logging fee, ie. $150-200 / MBF, I focus on harvesting as a forest improvement service. This includes the ecology/silviculture and marketing of the harvested timber. If there is a lot of low-grade the landowner in essence invests in the future return on improved crop trees. If there is a lot of high-grade then the landowner can get a full market value for those products. At the end of the day I know that there is a certain income based on how well my skills play out. There are some times when my estimation of logging costs are inaccurate, but after 20+ years, I have a good idea. Also, the low overhead of draft animals, and the diversity of uses helps to weather those inconsistencies, and allows for other income streams, and homestead enterprises.

Happy New Year, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Simon, the forwarder that you are describing sounds really great. I realize that Scandanavia is the place to look, but we have limited access. I hope that there is some way that we can try to share more of this info. I realize that importing is probably ridiculous, but just having a better sense of the design would be really great. Metavic has done a good job, but as you say, it just doesn’t make sense to pay a lot of money for something that is going to get hung up or requires a lot of bulldozer work before using. Thanx for all your great contributions, Carl

[Carl Russell]

The previous post shows a good photo of the type of forwarders we have available in our area.

Simon, I would love to get detailed manufacturer info about the type you use. I just can’t find M & S Jumentum Equipment anywhere.

The drive-wheel technology really interests me, as otherwise I think that a piece of steel this size will be a lot of work unless the roads are excellent and conditions pretty flat. How well does your rig work in snow? We are getting a good snow cover this winter here in the NE. Carl

[Carl Russell]

@simon lenihan 311 wrote:

…… M & s jumentum . …….. load capacity of 5 tonnes and is braked in all back 4 wheels, the lifting capacity is 1 tonne ………. This particular model is designed for working in steep terrain and is fitted with 4 small drive motors in the back wheels …

Simon, I’m sure that our terrain is similar to yours. I have not had the occasion to try a HD forwarder in the woods so I am only guessing about the effectiveness as regards the terrain.

Could you expand on the manufacturer, I don’t think we have that design on this side of the puddle.

Also I’m not sure of the equivalent volume/weight that you are describing.

Are the wheel-motors hydraulic also? Can you accelerate as the need dictates?

I am going to try to get our regional dealer on this forum.

Great to have you on board Simon, we are very excited that we can use this tool to broaden our community experience. Carl

[Carl Russell]

We will have a photo gallery. It is an add-on to V-Bulletin, and as yet we have not undertaken that. Thanks for keeping us honest. So far so good though, huh? Carl

[Carl Russell]

I would have to say that the forwarder wagons are indeed attractive. A friend of mine just bought a tractor towed version for $20K+. For that kind of money I see them having to fill a need such as Simon or Jason describe, hauling long distances for several teams and cutters.

Another good friend of mine is a caretaker for a 1400 acre parcel where they have invested in a Metavic Forwarder wagon. The owners are not concerned with rapid payback, more interested in facilitating the low impact long term harvesting plan. I have yarded to this machine several times, and find it very handy, and effective. They run it with an 80hp John Deere 4wd and haul about a thousand feet to a load. Our terrain is too steep and variable to truly consider a horse-drawn model.

One of the draw-backs with these kind of investments with horse-logging is the difference in overhead. While I can appreciate the improvement in capability, there is a substantial carrying cost to such equipment. Yes more work can be done, but it must be. One of my beloved old-timer mentors, a man who grew up logging with horses, went to crawlers and skidders, then back to horses, always said once you get into the seat of a machine its nearly impossible to get out.

So much work can be done with horses without machinery, and that is the real beauty to me. I can make or break the effectiveness of my horse operation, myself, based on my own ingenuity and skill. The low overhead and flexibility of the animal power unit is ideally suited to low tech operations. I have loaded many logs on a log wagon by hand or by par-buckling. I also use a bobsled and scoot, both excellent ways to move larger loads on snow.

Just to add to the discussion, one of the coolest ways I have found to move large tree-length wood is with a bunk-cart. A set of wheels on a pole, like a rear-end of a small truck. The bunk is situated to top out at the top of the tires. Backing the cart against the butt end of the tree so that one wheel is about a foot from the cut, a chain is attached to the center of the bunk, and wrapped around the tree trunk at that point. With the chain as tight as possible, and both wheels against the tree, the horses are engaged to move ahead, turning slightly to the same side as the butt. This presses the butt against the tire which is turning, as the cart goes forward, so that the rolling wheel lifts the tree up, and as the cart continues to turn in that direction the log swings right up onto the bunk. I have successfully loaded white pine trees 50-60 feet long scaling 450 board feet. Once the log is in place it should be centered and bindered to prevent it from rolling or sliding. I have rolled the thing over because I hadn’t figured that out yet. I have used horses and oxen on this cart and found it to move very easy.

Any way Mike Miller, a member of this forum, is a salesman for Payeur Distributions Inc, in Quebec, a private message to him might get more info about forwarder wagons, otherwise call him 819-679-0175 or e-mail mike@payeur.com . He brought a HD model to the NE Animal-Power Field Days in Tunbridge VT in September. They do work, Carl

[Carl Russell]

We lead by example. But what if the example is outside their ability to understand?
For years I have complimented my animal-power with hand tools. I handled tons of hay by hand. I have rolled every log I have cut in twenty-two years with a peavey. I have loaded every load of manure I ever spread by hand with a dung fork. I’ve walked behind or beside my animals for miles, sometimes in deep snow. Around the home, there are many projects that I have purposely chosen because they require my personal, physical involvement.

It is extremely low overhead. I am physically active, engaged with my work and the product, and getting the work done without sending money off the farm to pay for engineering and fabrication costs for machinery. Time, I think is the big problem for most people. There is a conventional wisdom that supposes that we have better things to do. THEY, whoever they are, have done a fantastic job of down-playing our physical capabilities, to a point where most people truly doubt that they can personally accomplish anything physically.

The power of the couch is an interesting point, because as we know a lot of that time is observing professional athletes, pretend superheros, and social servants, running around scoring points, and solving important issues on a moment by moment basis. No wonder people can’t put their own butt into action. They can’t hope to that good.

People regularly challenge me about my choice of human power. They automatically assume that a machine should be employed. Stacking logs is a perfect example. But ingenuity and finesse are huge components in physical power. Whether with draft animals, or with our own bodies, we have to find the point of least resistance. This is perhaps what truly motivates me. I find incredible reward and return from the investment of my intellectual and physical energy.

Another aspect is the relationship to the tool. It goes un-noticed in this throw-away society that I have hand tools that I have used for years and years. The heft of a hay fork, peavey, dung fork, rake, shovel, hoe become significant to me in my endeavors. My familiarity with the tool is integral to my execution of the job. If one breaks or is lost, it is like a loss of a family member. I recover, but I feel the loss physically.

At any rate, human power is a significant resource, and many people are missing out on using a resource that they have direct access to, without the cost of experts and materials. Sadly, I’m not sure that there is going to be an easy transition. I hope that I can help to free some souls by continuing to set the example, but the truth is, I have and will continue to work alone, or with a very small group.

I remember a quote from Edward Abbey, while not exactly to the word, he said that in our endeavor to open peoples eyes to the nature of the physical world, we need to remember the value that we place on it ourselves, and rather than wasting our opportunity trying to convince them, we need to get out there are participate in it. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Erik, My comments about your expectation for tenure have nothing to do with your stamina, rather with a realistic expectation for how long it may take for your foresight to be valuable to others around you.

I only referenced animal protein as a way to show that many ways have worked successfully in the past.

Even though I recognize that ALL of the things I have of value to me are GIFTS, and I strive to be generous, I am not in this to feed the masses.

I agree about the grain being grown where it can be, and I agree that grains fill a vital role in our future. I would like to see a animal-powered grain project come of the ground, but the energy required will require the involvement of groups of co-operators. This I would like to see. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Eric, I have a few thoughts. First of all, before the grain economy there was the meat economy. One of the most significant factors in the rise of human population and success, was the perfection of hunting skills and the realization that fresh killed meat could provide so much energy. I know that I do better on a high meat diet. I love my oatmeal, and I really do appreciate good bread, and I’ve got to say I have consumed a lot of beer, but grain food doesn’t do well for me. I get bloated, achy, weezy, etc.. Also, I believe that one of the successes of the grain economy that you reference had as much to do with the cultural power structure that benefited from the agrarian lifestyle.

The choices I have made with farming enterprises have a lot to do with my feeling that perma-culture plays a significant role in sustainability. Raising livestock on pasture is a good way to perpetuate the grasses that they need. Plowing large tracts of land to disturb the soil to prevent forest succession requires a lot of energy, which can be avoided if grass is raised by managing livestock on pasture. Then small tracts of tillage can be patch-worked into the mosaic, with forest enterprises being the most ecologically productive use of our land.

This being said I have, since I got started, thought a lot about growing grains. I recognize the value to my animals for energy, in work and growth. I have designed barns(un-built as of yet) with grain storage. I have done a lot of plowing with my animals over the years, so I have some idea of how energy intensive, and time consuming it is. Several times I used my neighbors corn field to practice. It gave me long, un-interrupted furrows in soil that was friable. Even though it didn’t get work done for me, and he just plowed over my work, it did help me to improve my ability and understanding.

When I tried to plow some of my upland fields, I found shallow fragipan, rocks, and ledge. I even had the occasion to ride over the handles of a walking plow after the beam broke on the backbone of Vermont, green schist ledge. So, as of now, I have very little land that is suitable for growing grains, or for that matter, plowing, and as I’ve said before, we pasture it all anyway. It is something that I want to continue to keep on the radar though, because there will come a time when we will need good grain grown in our area, using draft animals for tillage and harvest.

Peerage is another thing altogether. Although not using horses, yet, Brent and Regina Beidler are growing grains on their Randolph Center Farm, in a small-scale manner. I’m sure Jack Lazor would also be a great resource and inspiration. In both cases, diesel carries the load.

As you probably realize, you are really leading your peer group. It is very difficult emotionally to try to use an Earth-paced energy system in this modern world. Especially tillage. I know very well the sense of isolation. There are several people on this forum who have for years, even decades, worked without peers, forging ahead while the metaphoric crowd of onlookers snickered.

This last summer Lisa sold from her farmer’s market stand garlic and new potatoes, grown in a field that I have cultivated for over twenty years without one drop of petroleum. One of my primary motivations has always been to work the land without fossil fuels. We labeled our roots “Post Peak-oil Produce”, and some people were really appreciative. You got twenty years in you? I wonder if you realize how many of my successes, and failures, have gone un-noticed and un-appreciated in twenty years. The truth of the matter is that until now my conviction against petroleum has held little water for most other people (stiil does, I fear). But if I had reverted, I wouldn’t have the opportunity that exists now, however small it may be. Even still this is a very small field, 1/4 acre, and most of our tillage is primarily for our own produce.

Anyway, among all the other time-consuming projects that we have, I like the idea that there may be ways for us to push the envelope in terms of getting petroleum free grain production in Vermont. It would require a lot of petroleum for me to get my animals to your land, but this probably needs to be an undertaking of small groups that co-operate on suitable land to produce a shared-crop. Chore time, Carl

[Carl Russell]

With V-Bulletin we have very significant capabilities to limit access, and we have taken appropriate action. We were not up to speed first time, we thought he’ld get the point and not come back.

A Junior member has posted less than 30 times. Get going boys!

Merry Xmas to all. Now how do you yoke rein-deer anyway, or do you harness them, I’m never going to get all these presents delivered, Ho Ho Ho Ho Ho!!!! Carl

[Carl Russell]

I wasn’t interested in working a single ox, I was interested in whether anyone had used, or knew anything about using a harness on oxen. Carl

[Carl Russell]

The most common modern approach to resource management is defined by the product. In other words forest resources are defined in terms of timber, wood, or other assets that are harvested from the forest. Management objectives are chosen based on the most effective way to develop these products to their marketable premium. The point that escapes most of us today is that the forest is actually the resource. By this I mean the forest ecosystem, the bundle of complex interrelationships, is the foundation for the growth of the products we desire.

One of the factors that distracts us is that we don’t have an understanding of a true forest, because we have been playing with the landscape intensively for hundreds of years. As we witnessed right here in this thread, the assumed alternative seems to be non-entry wilderness. There are a lot of arguments about the value of wilderness, many of which are emotional/aesthetic/spiritual, or sometimes allowed for as an opportunity for understanding forest processes. I enjoy the wilderness experience well as anyone, but I contend that we do not need wilderness to have ecological integrity.

As I pointed out in my first post that the J-shaped curve of growth captures the focus of most of the conventional forest managers. The way that the juvenile growth rate is optimized is through reduced stocking. There is little doubt that reducing competition will increase individual tree growth, which can deliver the greatest economic return. What escapes most people is that the reason stocking has to be reduced is that the forest as an ecological community strives for the overstocked condition.

Overstocking causes increased mortality, reduced vigor, shallow rooting, and preconditions forest stands to disease complexes, wind-throw, and other potential impacts that may negatively affect yield. Now if economics is the primary motivator, then these factors are considered non-productive. But in reality these are the factors that improve the long term health of the ecosystem, and eventually have positive impact on individual tree growth by providing environmental pressures that encourage fitness. These factors also encourage the many other unseen components of the forest ecosystem.

By maintaining high stocking, using single tree selection and crop tree release, and by using small scale harvesting systems like draft animals, with regular low-volume entries the forest can be allowed to have a more natural progress. When I say manage your use not the forest, this is what I mean. By letting the forest do what it does, and adjusting the way we use it to allow for as much natural succession as possible, we can approach ecological integrity.

Because trees are the primary defining feature of the forest, it is easy fro us to focus on them, and define the forest in terms of trees. Trees not only define the forest, they provide it. In other words, obviously, there would not be forest without trees. Pretty simple. But the complexity is that the forest is about a host of other organisms and complexes that inhabit the environment created by the trees. This process is also beneficial to tree growth. Trees create the environment, attract associates and contributors, and then take advantage of their contribution to ensure future success. If we continue to ignore this, and continue to interrupt the process because of our need for product, then we will be continually faced with forest ecosystems that can’t support tree growth adequate to provide that need. Carl

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